Vaccine passport disaster in Scotland

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yorkie

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59034619
The first weekend of enforcement of Scotland's vaccine passport scheme was an "unmitigated disaster", according to a body representing night-time venues.
Venue staff refused entry to revellers without vaccine passports more than 550 times, and some staff were abused, the Scottish Hospitality Group said.
It said footfall was down 40% and some venues took the decision to close early.
The Scottish government said the scheme was a "proportionate" health measure
Of course the SNP would say it is proportionate, wouldn't they? :rolleyes:

I can't see this being expanded to other settings and I can't see this being anything other than a short term measure, to increase vaccination rates among young people.
 
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Cdd89

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Dare I ask how someone visiting from (eg) the US proves their vaccination status?

This should absolutely terrify BoJo. The SNP may get a free pass on this stuff (I’d count just one negative article as such, if that’s all it is!), but he won’t. Even he must recognise his cabinet’s incompetence by now.
 

kez19

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Dare I ask how someone visiting from (eg) the US proves their vaccination status?

This should absolutely terrify BoJo. The SNP may get a free pass on this stuff (I’d count just one negative article as such, if that’s all it is!), but he won’t. Even he must recognise his cabinet’s incompetence by now.

I found this but I may have to find the other link again:

Those who received both doses internationally
You'll need to request proof of vaccination from the international country you were vaccinated in.

I also found this by accident:

We have learned the NHS mobile phone app which presents the personal medical information in the form of a QR Code shares data with companies including Amazon, Microsoft, ServiceNow, Royal Mail and an AI facial recognition firm.

Civil liberty campaigners and opposition politicians have reacted furiously to our revelations.
 

Elwyn

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Dare I ask how someone visiting from (eg) the US proves their vaccination status?
I have a friend visiting from the US shortly. He’s double vaccinated and has a document to show that. (He has to show it at check-in in the US and on entry in Ireland, apparently). So whatever it is, could be used in Scotland too, I am sure.
 

jumble

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59034619

Of course the SNP would say it is proportionate, wouldn't they? :rolleyes:

I can't see this being expanded to other settings and I can't see this being anything other than a short term measure, to increase vaccination rates among young people.
I went to a security conference in London 2 weeks ago where they were mandating showing "proof of vaccination"
This was enforced by them accepting a photograph on my phone of my vaccination card
Since I had signed up via email they had no idea if the name on the card was me as I could have signed up under any name
What a ludicrous waste of time as i proved nothing and I found it highly amusing that it that it was a security conference
 

Smidster

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I have a friend visiting from the US shortly. He’s double vaccinated and has a document to show that. (He has to show it at check-in in the US and on entry in Ireland, apparently). So whatever it is, could be used in Scotland too, I am sure.

I wouldn't be so confident.
 

Cdd89

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I have a friend visiting from the US shortly. He’s double vaccinated and has a document to show that. (He has to show it at check-in in the US and on entry in Ireland, apparently). So whatever it is, could be used in Scotland too, I am sure.
Venues aren’t familiar with the appearance of any number of foreign, easily-forged vaccination papers or unreadable (to them) QR codes. Either they allow it and make a mockery of the whole scheme, or they don’t allow it and leave visitors unable to do anything. Which silly path Scotland has gone down is as yet unclear to me.
 

greyman42

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Dare I ask how someone visiting from (eg) the US proves their vaccination status?

This should absolutely terrify BoJo. The SNP may get a free pass on this stuff (I’d count just one negative article as such, if that’s all it is!), but he won’t. Even he must recognise his cabinet’s incompetence by now.
What is your point?
 

Cdd89

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What is your point?
My hope is that this will make England less likely to implement it, given the negative press it has received in Scotland and the likely worse press a likely worse scheme in England would receive.
 

duncanp

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I wonder how they are going to police vaccine passports at the hogmanay street party in Edinburgh, given that it has been confirmed as going ahead, albeit at a reduced capacity.

Still it is a good sign that the authorities in Scotland believe that the COVID situation will be sufficiently under control at the end of December to allow the event to go ahead.


Edinburgh's Hogmanay street party will return this year after Covid forced the cancellation of the 2020 event.
The event, which also will feature the return of the Edinburgh Castle fireworks display, has a reduced capacity of 30,000.
Artists, who have yet to be announced, will perform on the Ross Bandstand to a crowd of 3,500, with the show streamed to the Princes Street audience.
Tickets for the event will go on sale on Tuesday.
Organisers Underbelly said that 7,500 tickets for this year's event will be available at a discounted price for those with an EH postcode.
A four-day programme of events also includes a torchlight procession and concerts at Greyfriars Kirk, including shows by Eddi Reader and Dougie Maclean.
The last time the event was held in-person, in 2019, the street party was attended by 75,000 people.
Last year's programme of events was held online due to the pandemic.
City of Edinburgh Council depute leader Cammy Day said: "Edinburgh is the home of Hogmanay and it is fantastic that this year, as we mark its 29th year, we see the return of in-person events and that celebrations will return to the streets of the capital."
 

takno

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I wonder how they are going to police vaccine passports at the hogmanay street party in Edinburgh, given that it has been confirmed as going ahead, albeit at a reduced capacity.

Still it is a good sign that the authorities in Scotland believe that the COVID situation will be sufficiently under control at the end of December to allow the event to go ahead.

As a "large scale event" they will only have to check a proportion of the attendees. I suspect the proportion may be rather small, and I rather hope it will lean quite heavily towards the VIP entrance
 

David M

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The so-called body representing Scottish hospitality is nothing of the sort, it was set up by prominent anti-Independence supporter Stephen Montgomery who owns The Townhead Hotel in Lockerbie and is friendly with David and Oliver Mundell. It uses his own hotel website as an online presence and his 'group' represents less than 3% of Scottish hospitality workers. He has a political rather than a public health agenda.
Short story is that an app was introduced to allow entrance into night-clubs (amongst other things) and bouncers refused entry to people who hadn't bothered to get the app or who hadn't been jagged.
In that respect, it worked exactly as intended.
Not jagged? Don't go to a night club. Not got the app? Get it before you go to a night club.
Simple - I have it beside me as I type.
A similar style vaccine passport will be introduced in England shortly, it is inevitable.
 

MikeWM

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Short story is that an app was introduced to allow entrance into night-clubs

...or to put it another way, previously you were freely allowed to go to nightclubs, whereas now you are legally required to show that the government has given you permission to do so.

Oddly enough, some people are rather unhappy at such an unprecedented and massive change in the relationship between the individual and the state.
 

kez19

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Hypothetical question here but I wonder how many of our MSPs have the app or paper version to get into places or have they excluded themselves?

Also to add how many of our MSPs have also got vaccinated?
 

SteveM70

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I’m going to a music festival in Glasgow in a just over a fortnight, taking my 17yo youngest son with me. I’m double vaccinated and he’s single vaccinated, and we both have NHS England vaccine passports. I checked the NHS Scotland website and got nothing meaningful, so rang them up and only got a vague “it should be OK” response. I suspect the venue will be OK with it, but it does seem a bit of a shambles
 

hexagon789

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I’m going to a music festival in Glasgow in a just over a fortnight, taking my 17yo youngest son with me. I’m double vaccinated and he’s single vaccinated, and we both have NHS England vaccine passports. I checked the NHS Scotland website and got nothing meaningful, so rang them up and only got a vague “it should be OK” response. I suspect the venue will be OK with it, but it does seem a bit of a shambles

If under 18 vaccination status is not required, but proof of age may be requested:
You may be asked to present evidence that you meet the criteria for entry.
This is confirmation that you are:
  • fully vaccinated
  • you are medically exempt
  • on - or have participated in - a clinical trial
  • under 18 - if you are under 18 you are not required to provide a vaccination certificate or proof of exemption, but you may be asked to provide proof of your age if the venue requests this
 

Cdd89

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Not jagged? Don't go to a night club. Not got the app? Get it before you go to a night club.
Simple - I have it beside me as I type.
What do I do if I am ‘jagged’, visiting from Canada, and want to visit a nightclub?
 

danm14

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I’m going to a music festival in Glasgow in a just over a fortnight, taking my 17yo youngest son with me. I’m double vaccinated and he’s single vaccinated, and we both have NHS England vaccine passports. I checked the NHS Scotland website and got nothing meaningful, so rang them up and only got a vague “it should be OK” response. I suspect the venue will be OK with it, but it does seem a bit of a shambles
The Scottish validation app will accept the Northern Ireland proof of vaccination, so I would be hugely surprised if it doesn't accept the English one. I would expect you to need to use the international travel version, rather than the domestic events version.

You can test for yourself by downloading the app:



Personally, I wouldn't proffer your son's vaccine passport at all, as he is under 18 he doesn't need to be vaccinated to attend. You have nothing to gain by doing so.
 
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kez19

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The Scottish validation app will accept the Northern Ireland proof of vaccination, so I would be hugely surprised if it doesn't accept the English one. I would expect you to need to use the international travel version, rather than the domestic events version.

You can test for yourself by downloading the app:



Personally, I wouldn't proffer your son's vaccine passport at all, as he is under 18 he doesn't need to be vaccinated to attend. You have nothing to gain by doing so.

I asked this question to the Scottish Government but got fobbed off but according to the website the app can be used anywhere in the UK however they have not specified which version it falls under ie From Scotland to England (ie Domestic or international - generally it should be domestic but like I say no clear guidelines)

The so-called body representing Scottish hospitality is nothing of the sort, it was set up by prominent anti-Independence supporter Stephen Montgomery who owns The Townhead Hotel in Lockerbie and is friendly with David and Oliver Mundell. It uses his own hotel website as an online presence and his 'group' represents less than 3% of Scottish hospitality workers. He has a political rather than a public health agenda.
Short story is that an app was introduced to allow entrance into night-clubs (amongst other things) and bouncers refused entry to people who hadn't bothered to get the app or who hadn't been jagged.
In that respect, it worked exactly as intended.
Not jagged? Don't go to a night club. Not got the app? Get it before you go to a night club.
Simple - I have it beside me as I type.
A similar style vaccine passport will be introduced in England shortly, it is inevitable.

The whole situation has been nothing more than politics than public health - but still it seems to be we are edging away from being able to live our own lives to suit the politicians

You mentioned about not being jagged then don’t go to a nightclub what happens (god forbid we don’t go down that route), it’s then pushed onto other things like shops, transport etc? This isn’t the right way at all but still it feels like people being penalised whilst the politicians enjoy the life of Riley?
 
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VauxhallandI

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I’m going to a music festival in Glasgow in a just over a fortnight, taking my 17yo youngest son with me. I’m double vaccinated and he’s single vaccinated, and we both have NHS England vaccine passports. I checked the NHS Scotland website and got nothing meaningful, so rang them up and only got a vague “it should be OK” response. I suspect the venue will be OK with it, but it does seem a bit of a shambles
I went to a concert last weekend with the NHS England App - the bit where it shows two codes one for each vaccination and it was accepted. You can also put them into apple wallet

The so-called body representing Scottish hospitality is nothing of the sort, it was set up by prominent anti-Independence supporter Stephen Montgomery who owns The Townhead Hotel in Lockerbie and is friendly with David and Oliver Mundell. It uses his own hotel website as an online presence and his 'group' represents less than 3% of Scottish hospitality workers. He has a political rather than a public health agenda.
Short story is that an app was introduced to allow entrance into night-clubs (amongst other things) and bouncers refused entry to people who hadn't bothered to get the app or who hadn't been jagged.
In that respect, it worked exactly as intended.
Not jagged? Don't go to a night club. Not got the app? Get it before you go to a night club.
Simple - I have it beside me as I type.
A similar style vaccine passport will be introduced in England shortly, it is inevitable.
How about we open nightclubs for the people who never go to nightclubs but if they would they would want a passport to get in.

We then leave the rest of the places free and open to all
 

Red Onion

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Not jagged? Don't go to a night club. Not got the app? Get it before you go to a night club.
Simple - I have it beside me as I type.

What about those of us with medical exemptions? There is allegedly, and I stress allegedly as it seems the Willy Wonka golden ticket is easier to get, a certificate we can get to prove this. In order to get this, I have to phone a helpline that doesn’t appear to have a human operator and simply tells me to get the information online. Online tells me to phone the helpline. The loop is infinite in that respect.

Simple you say. I find it exceptionally difficult if near impossible. But as you say it’s simple, can you please advise on the solution?
 

Kez

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59034619
The first weekend of enforcement of Scotland's vaccine passport scheme was an "unmitigated disaster", according to a body representing night-time venues.
Venue staff refused entry to revellers without vaccine passports more than 550 times, and some staff were abused, the Scottish Hospitality Group said.
It said footfall was down 40% and some venues took the decision to close early.

Of course, the 40% drop in footfall was nothing to do with the publicised epidemic of spiking cases in venues across Scotland. Perhaps the 'Scottish Hospitality Group' should be concentrating on making venues safe places rather than whinging incessantly about things they don't like.
 

takno

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Of course, the 40% drop in footfall was nothing to do with the publicised epidemic of spiking cases in venues across Scotland. Perhaps the 'Scottish Hospitality Group' should be concentrating on making venues safe places rather than whinging incessantly about things they don't like.
That's an impressive bit of whataboutery.

There's been a lot of UK-wide publicity, including a one-way boycott in Leeds which I suspect may not have actually been a thing outside of the pages of the BBC news website and the organiser's social media. Most of the actual evidence and evidence presented seems to indicate that the injection spiking thing is probably too hard for almost any attackers to do successfully, and that spiking incidents are up a little in clubs and a potentially a lot in house parties.

I'm sure that almost everybody, including club owners and staff, agree that the whole idea of spiking is absolutely repugnant, and as much as possible should be done about it.

It hasn't, however, suddenly driven a massive drop in club attendance restricted to Scotland only, and coincidentally on the same weekend that a Scotland-only event came into force.
 

Scotrail314209

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I think we all knew this was going to be a disaster from the get-go.

If anything, it also adds to the growing calls for Miss Sturgeon to step down, something which I do agree with. The approach was good at the start of the pandemic, but now it seems like she has gotten a little bit over her head when it comes to power.

The best thing to do is scrap them.
 

35B

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I also found this by accident:

It would be interesting to know what data is actually shared; there's a level of detail missing from the story that makes it hard to assess. Looking at the list of companies, I suspect Amazon and Microsoft is because the data is stored on Amazon (AWS) and Microsoft (Azure) servers, Royal Mail because there is either a link to testing or they provide the postcodes, and ServiceNow because they provide the workflow behind the (un)helpdesk. Those are just the companies I know a little about.
 

island

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The Scottish validation app will accept the Northern Ireland proof of vaccination, so I would be hugely surprised if it doesn't accept the English one. I would expect you to need to use the international travel version, rather than the domestic events version.

You can test for yourself by downloading the app:



Personally, I wouldn't proffer your son's vaccine passport at all, as he is under 18 he doesn't need to be vaccinated to attend. You have nothing to gain by doing so.
A quick check confirms my English and Irish issued vaccine passes are both accepted by the app.

I have a friend visiting from the US shortly. He’s double vaccinated and has a document to show that. (He has to show it at check-in in the US and on entry in Ireland, apparently). So whatever it is, could be used in Scotland too, I am sure.
I wouldn't count on it. The US proof of vaccine is the handwritten appointment card.
 

Bantamzen

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Of course, the 40% drop in footfall was nothing to do with the publicised epidemic of spiking cases in venues across Scotland. Perhaps the 'Scottish Hospitality Group' should be concentrating on making venues safe places rather than whinging incessantly about things they don't like.
Whinging about things they don't like? These are businesses that after 18 months of serious disruption and massive cash flows losses now being asked to implement measures which will continue to risk them losing business, and measures that will do sod all. And not forgetting of course these are also businesses that raise a lot of taxes through sales, tax that you may have noticed is urgently needed.

Vaccine passports are a just more the same "must do something, this is something" measures that plagued the globe in 2020, right up there with one way systems in supermarkets and book quarantines in bookstores & libraries. But what they will achieve is even more pressure on these businesses, which will lead to people losing jobs and even more pressure on state finances.
 

Kez

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That's an impressive bit of whataboutery.

Quality internet discussion there.

I made a valid point based upon anecdotal evidence from my son who lives in Glasgow. You don't even consider that point.

Still, I guess that this isn't a place that values discussion ... as evidenced by the thread title. Is it a disaster ? Of course, it's a disaster - no discussion necessary. Let's have a few hundred posts in support of that view.
 

kez19

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It would be interesting to know what data is actually shared; there's a level of detail missing from the story that makes it hard to assess. Looking at the list of companies, I suspect Amazon and Microsoft is because the data is stored on Amazon (AWS) and Microsoft (Azure) servers, Royal Mail because there is either a link to testing or they provide the postcodes, and ServiceNow because they provide the workflow behind the (un)helpdesk. Those are just the companies I know a little about.

I believe and I could be wrong but it stated at sign up that no data was shared (with anyone), even if that was true don’t you think then the Government is breaching data protection? So it’s still ok to hand over my data to those companies?? Maybe and this isn’t at governments level but all governments businesses need to be more open and honest here?

Found this https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-status-privacy

Who has access to the data?​

No one will have access to the data stored on your phone unless you decide to show your COVID Status to them.

Neither the Scottish Government nor NHS Scotland, (except NHS National Services Scotland as described below) get or have access to the data that you supplied for the online I.D. verification process.

The Scottish Government does not get or have access to the data that you supplied for the online I.D. verification process. A limited number of NHS National Services Scotland personnel will have access to the data in order to produce anonymous aggregated metrics.

Back a bit they say they comply: https://www.nhsinform.scot/nhs-scot...s/covid-status-using-the-app-common-questions
What happens to my data?
The app only shows your vaccination record and no other personal health records.
The app complies with GDPR and Data Protection Act legislation.
For further information, read the COVID Status privacy policy

So they comply with regulations but on another seems otherwise?
https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-status-privacy
 
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