Vaccine Passports - currently being considered in Scotland & Wales

[dosxuk]

I did read that that was the line-to-take on the topic. Rather ignores the fact that there appears to have been another protest at broadcasting house. The protest in Shepherds Bush only got the airtime because that was the place where they successfully stormed a *checks notes* BBC facility, which is used to film a selection of BBC and ITV programmes.

Television centre is privately owned with BBC Studioworks - part of the commercial arm of the BBC - renting three of the former studios. Two of which are on long term rental to ITV. There are no facilities on the site that would affect any part of the BBC's broadcasting (which was apparently the aim of the protest), and there are barely any BBC (again, commerical arm) employed staff on site, with ITV crewing their programming themselves.

As for successfully stormed, well, if you consider a couple of people getting past the daytime security before the Police arrived as storming, then OK. The protest outside Broadcasting House (when they eventually got there) had zero effect on any of the BBC's output or staff (other than not being able to use the front doors).

Dunno if loose women was going out live at the time, but if it was then successfully storming the studio for that would have been quite a publicity coup.

It would, however since the people involved believed they were trying to break into the studios of BBC News, they probably would have been a bit confused by the discussions on the menopause that were occurring at the time on ITV.

I don't approve of the actions of this crowd, but I really don't get what the dwindling ranks of Twitterati think they are achieving by running off these cheap "everybody is stupid except for us" lines.

Because it's literally something you couldn't make it up. These people were literally chanting earlier about doing your research and not listening to what the MSM says - while outside a building not used by the people they turned up to protest at. It's just such a stupid thing to happen that it would be ruled out of most comedy shows as not realistic enough. Instead of getting their message heard by a wider audience these bunch of clowns have just made themselves look silly.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Television centre is privately owned with BBC Studioworks - part of the commercial arm of the BBC - renting three of the former studios. Two of which are on long term rental to ITV. There are no facilities on the site that would affect any part of the BBC's broadcasting (which was apparently the aim of the protest), and there are barely any BBC (again, commerical arm) employed staff on site, with ITV crewing their programming themselves.

As for successfully stormed, well, if you consider a couple of people getting past the daytime security before the Police arrived as storming, then OK. The protest outside Broadcasting House (when they eventually got there) had zero effect on any of the BBC's output or staff (other than not being able to use the front doors).



It would, however since the people involved believed they were trying to break into the studios of BBC News, they probably would have been a bit confused by the discussions on the menopause that were occurring at the time on ITV.



Because it's literally something you couldn't make it up. These people were literally chanting earlier about doing your research and not listening to what the MSM says - while outside a building not used by the people they turned up to protest at. It's just such a stupid thing to happen that it would be ruled out of most comedy shows as not realistic enough. Instead of getting their message heard by a wider audience these bunch of clowns have just made themselves look silly.

Maybe they already knew that the Television Centre wasn’t used much anymore apart from a few shows, did you ever think that could have been the angle? To test the ground perhaps for a larger scale event?

Though it’s typical of the Twitter crowd who spend their days bemoaning Brexit and what not, to have anyone who doesn’t agree with them or their worldview branded as Stupid and too thick to understand anything

 

[takno]

Television centre is privately owned with BBC Studioworks - part of the commercial arm of the BBC - renting three of the former studios. Two of which are on long term rental to ITV. There are no facilities on the site that would affect any part of the BBC's broadcasting (which was apparently the aim of the protest), and there are barely any BBC (again, commerical arm) employed staff on site, with ITV crewing their programming themselves.

As for successfully stormed, well, if you consider a couple of people getting past the daytime security before the Police arrived as storming, then OK. The protest outside Broadcasting House (when they eventually got there) had zero effect on any of the BBC's output or staff (other than not being able to use the front doors).

It would, however since the people involved believed they were trying to break into the studios of BBC News, they probably would have been a bit confused by the discussions on the menopause that were occurring at the time on ITV.

Because it's literally something you couldn't make it up. These people were literally chanting earlier about doing your research and not listening to what the MSM says - while outside a building not used by the people they turned up to protest at. It's just such a stupid thing to happen that it would be ruled out of most comedy shows as not realistic enough. Instead of getting their message heard by a wider audience these bunch of clowns have just made themselves look silly.

You appear to care deeply about the difference between different arms of the BBC. I'd rate myself as reasonably aware of some of the differences, and a fair number of people I work with are ex BBC so I've listened to them chuntering on at length about the organisation. Even so, all I saw was a load of people complaining about the BBC, and doing so fairly successfully outside a building with a BBC sign. To argue that makes them look stupid is pretty much on a par with mocking the BBC for filming a drama series at the wrong London terminus.

The people involved don't look silly - they look like they achieved their aims fairly well, including largely getting across that they are anti-vax-passorts rather than anti vax.

The people pretending to laugh at them meanwhile look elitist and unpleasant. I've been that sneering elitist person, and the only upshot is that I've got to watch while we laughed our way through nearly 30 years and counting of largely inept Tory governments, and finally managed to laugh our way right out of the EU. Normal people don't like it.

 

[dosxuk]

Maybe they already knew that the Television Centre wasn’t used much anymore apart from a few shows, did you ever think that could have been the angle? To test the ground perhaps for a larger scale event?

The people protesting haven't suggested this, they honestly believed they were at the BBC's HQ, until it became clear they weren't. The main aim seems to have been to disrupt the BBC's News output - ideally get on air but to create enough disruption that it gets reported on would be a good result. Unfortunately for that aim they were about 8 years too late.

The people involved don't look silly - they look like they achieved their aims fairly well, including largely getting across that they are anti-vax-passorts rather than anti vax.

No, they absolutely do look silly, what happened was more reminiscent of Four Lions than a properly organised protest with a clear aim and message. And they haven't even got that message across at all - everyone's talking about the anti-vaxxers who don't know how to do research, not vaccine passports. I've even seen a couple of claims that they were actually there to protest about paedophiles that have got as much coverage as the passport business.

Overall it's been a nice day out for them but a complete failure for whatever message they were trying to get across.

 

[takno]

The people protesting haven't suggested this, they honestly believed they were at the BBC's HQ, until it became clear they weren't. The main aim seems to have been to disrupt the BBC's News output - ideally get on air but to create enough disruption that it gets reported on would be a good result. Unfortunately for that aim they were about 8 years too late.


No, they absolutely do look silly, what happened was more reminiscent of Four Lions than a properly organised protest with a clear aim and message. And they haven't even got that message across at all - everyone's talking about the anti-vaxxers who don't know how to do research, not vaccine passports. I've even seen a couple of claims that they were actually there to protest about paedophiles that have got as much coverage as the passport business.

Overall it's been a nice day out for them but a complete failure for whatever message they were trying to get across.

You do appear to have read a different set of reports and coverage to me. Rather than enter into a contest of who's in the biggest bubble, I'll just observe that outside of a bit of sneering on Reddit and Twitter, the only upshot of which was that I finally got round to unfollowing Michael Spicer, the coverage and conversation on the protest has gone a fair bit better than you are fondly imagining

 

[NorthKent1989]

The people protesting haven't suggested this, they honestly believed they were at the BBC's HQ, until it became clear they weren't. The main aim seems to have been to disrupt the BBC's News output - ideally get on air but to create enough disruption that it gets reported on would be a good result. Unfortunately for that aim they were about 8 years too late.

And do you think the mainstream media, who are by and large pro lockdown, would report that the protesters had stated that was their intention would they?

No, they absolutely do look silly, what happened was more reminiscent of Four Lions than a properly organised protest with a clear aim and message. And they haven't even got that message across at all - everyone's talking about the anti-vaxxers who don't know how to do research, not vaccine passports. I've even seen a couple of claims that they were actually there to protest about paedophiles that have got as much coverage as the passport business.

Overall it's been a nice day out for them but a complete failure for whatever message they were trying to get across.

I would say that they got exactly what they desired, the media ignore months of them marching, latest of marches was on par with the 2003 Anti War marches, and now they’ve gotten media attention, so no you’re wrong I’m afraid, they didn’t fail, some papers have even reported that they were anti passports not anti vax.

I strongly suggest you don’t rely on a echo chamber so much and read between the lines.

 

[35B]

I strongly suggest you don’t rely on a echo chamber so much and read between the lines.

Pot, kettle, black..

 

[Smidster]

To steer little more on topic.

The Premier League, which starts this week, says that fans should be ready to show their papers from this weekend.

Premier League COVID-19 protocols for fans: FAQs

All you need to know if you are planning to attend Premier League matches

www.premierleague.com

 

[NorthKent1989]

Pot, kettle, black..

Hmmm no…and I find that ironic since you dismiss other people’s sources as being incorrect repeatedly.

The protesters did get the desired effect, they got media attention after months of protesting, so to say they failed is a massive in-correction.

Even you can see that surely?

I’ll wait for the what-aboutism

To steer little more on topic.

The Premier League, which starts this week, says that fans should be ready to show their papers from this weekend.

Premier League COVID-19 protocols for fans: FAQs

All you need to know if you are planning to attend Premier League matches

www.premierleague.com

Utter madness, they’ve had the euros, and Wimbledon without showing papers.

Those events had VIP’s ‘breaking rules’.

Yet now they as for papers? One is inclined to believe that is isn’t about a virus or people’s safety.

 

[DustyBin]

To steer little more on topic.

The Premier League, which starts this week, says that fans should be ready to show their papers from this weekend.

Premier League COVID-19 protocols for fans: FAQs

All you need to know if you are planning to attend Premier League matches

www.premierleague.com

I opened the link and had a read through. Absolutely appalling.

 

[duncanp]

I opened the link and had a read through. Absolutely appalling.

I am not a football fan, but I find this thoroughly depressing.

This is a trial run , and if football fans acquiesce to this, then the government will take it as a green light to introduce "COVID Status Certification" in other settings.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I am not a football fan, but I find this thoroughly depressing.

This is a trial run , and if football fans acquiesce to this, then the government will take it as a green light to introduce "COVID Status Certification" in other settings.

I'm just glad that the club I support are some way down the leagues and so we probaly won't be subject to this unless we go on a very impressive cup run. Though I'm very much in solidarity with those subject to this nonsense.

 

[takno]

I opened the link and had a read through. Absolutely appalling.

Given government pronouncements on the matter the guidelines appear to be the absolute least they could do. I mean I won't be going (although I haven't been to a premier league game for 15 years anyway), but I wouldn't say they've gone over or above what was essentially forced on them.

 

[DustyBin]

I'm just glad that the club I support are some way down the leagues and so we probaly won't be subject to this unless we go on a very impressive cup run. Though I'm very much in solidarity with those subject to this nonsense.

Yes the words of Martin Niemöller should be ringing loudly in all of our ears at present.

Given government pronouncements on the matter the guidelines appear to be the absolute least they could do. I mean I won't be going (although I haven't been to a premier league game for 15 years anyway), but I wouldn't say they've gone over or above what was essentially forced on them.

I don’t disagree, it’s the government who are forcing the issue. It’s an appalling situation though regardless. This is a line crossed and whilst I’d like to think enough people see this and begin to push back, I’m not holding my breath. The prevailing “I’m alright Jack” attitude, together with the large number of people who all of a sudden trust politicians implicitly, will prevent any meaningful resistance.

 

[35B]

Hmmm no…and I find that ironic since you dismiss other people’s sources as being incorrect repeatedly.

The protesters did get the desired effect, they got media attention after months of protesting, so to say they failed is a massive in-correction.

Even you can see that surely?

I’ll wait for the what-aboutism

Oh, I get that they got attention. Whether or not that's a good thing depends rather on how much you believe the mantra that there's no such thing as bad publicity. Personally, I'd be embarrassed to be associated with something so half baked, but each to their own.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Oh, I get that they got attention. Whether or not that's a good thing depends rather on how much you believe the mantra that there's no such thing as bad publicity. Personally, I'd be embarrassed to be associated with something so half baked, but each to their own.

I suppose anything to do with civil liberties and rights would have looked half baked at one time…

Most aren’t doing this for a popularity contest it’s a bit more nuanced than that.

 

[jumble]

No need to wait until Autumn, it seems

Walked past a queue of hundreds (outside, in the rain) in central London today. Turns out they were queuing in order to show their government-issued permission that they were sufficiently healthy to attend the theatre, via an app on their phone, to some random security guard or other, else they weren’t allowed in.

I’ve been writing about this theoretically for a year or so now. But seeing it in action was really quite chilling. Normalising the process of requiring government permission for things that previously you were entirely free to do.

A vision of the (very near) future in most places, I fear

To be fair if my understanding is correct you don't need to actually prove anything
If you don't want to discuss your medical history you can "take" a lateral flow test and play with the results by studying Tik Toc and then bypass the system up load what ever result you want and then show the hard of thinking who attach importance to your self uploaded result the "proof" that your test was negative.
This is very different to a medically administered PCR test

 

[eastdyke]

I'm just glad that the club I support are some way down the leagues and so we probaly won't be subject to this unless we go on a very impressive cup run. Though I'm very much in solidarity with those subject to this nonsense.

'Papers please'
In football this is not just about the Premier League.

Ipswich Town (League 1) had ~21,000 in on Saturday and this is what they say on their website:

IMPORTANT INFO FOR RETURN OF FANS

Everything you need to know ahead of supporters being back at Portman Road this weekend

www.itfc.co.uk

Extract:

Any person aged 11 or over will either be required to provide proof of a NHS negative lateral flow test (no longer than 48 hours prior to the event) or proof of full vaccination (with the second dose administered at least 14 days before the relevant match).

For full details on how to report a lateral flow test result, click here.


An example text message or email to show as proof:

For full details on proof of vaccination, click here

Oh, I get that they got attention. Whether or not that's a good thing depends rather on how much you believe the mantra that there's no such thing as bad publicity. Personally, I'd be embarrassed to be associated with something so half baked, but each to their own.

The media are using images that subvert the 'anti passport' message that may be stated.
For instance pictures that show/highlight one Piers Richard Corbyn.

This is very different to a medically administered PCR test

It is [very different] for sure but it is the speed and direction of travel, along with willingness amongst the 'participants', that is of great concern to me.
To those who are not speaking up because it doesn't affect them I would add the word YET.

 

[MikeWM]

To be fair if my understanding is correct you don't need to actually prove anything
If you don't want to discuss your medical history you can "take" a lateral flow test and play with the results by studying Tik Toc and then bypass the system up load what ever result you want and then show the hard of thinking who attach importance to your self uploaded result the "proof" that your test was negative.
This is very different to a medically administered PCR test

Yes, this is true - because the 'vaccine passports' aren't really about public health at all, they're about rolling out a 'papers please' society in the style of Chinese social credit, and Covid and the vaccines are the wedge that has opened that door, that we probably would never have agreed to otherwise.

That there are currently loopholes isn't really the point - the point is getting us used to this massive behaviour change, requiring government approval for things we could previously do freely, and having to be prepared to show that approval to all and sundry in order to undertake normal activities.

Indeed the fact that there are loopholes is probably deliberate, as it means more people will go along with the system at first rather than actively opposing it while it can still be stopped. The loopholes will be closed later, once the behaviour change is engrained in society.

 

[GB]

Premier League "Fans should not attend Premier League matches if there is any risk they can pass on COVID-19."

Given vaccines don't prevent transmission I guess no one should be going to the matches then??

 

[NorthKent1989]

Things have been opened for weeks now, vaccinations are steady, people mixing, low mask usage.

DVP’s are an example that we the public have given the government an inch and they’ve taken a thousand miles, if there was a serious need for DVP’s then they would have been introduced earlier, but it’s obvious there is no case for them other than Boris is enjoying his power far too much.

So any publicity against DVP’s is good publicity.

 

[greyman42]

I am not a football fan, but I find this thoroughly depressing.

This is a trial run , and if football fans acquiesce to this, then the government will take it as a green light to introduce "COVID Status Certification" in other settings.

So what will happen if you turn up at the ground without any certification. Are you turned away after you have paid £1,000 for a season ticket? I do not recall any mention of this certification when i bought my season ticket so i presume the clubs will be refunding season ticket holders without certification?

 

[MikeWM]

if there was a serious need for DVP’s then they would have been introduced earlier, but it’s obvious there is no case for them other than Boris is enjoying his power far too much.

If there was any logical argument for them they would be based on test results, rather than vaccination status. We know that the vaccines don't prevent you catching the disease or transmitting it. A test (if they're worth the masses of plastic they're made from) would be a far better indicator - so while a 'passport' based on test results would also be a truly abhorrent thing, it would at least make some sense if the supposed aim is to prevent the spread of a virus.

So, what are we seeing? Moves - again in multiple countries simultaneously - to end the 'test' alternative to the vaccine certification! Either explicitly (see the UK's supposed plan for nightclubs etc. later this year, or New York) or by stealth (see Germany, which is about to start charging for tests).

If people don't see something very wrong is going on by this point, I'm not sure how they ever will.

 

[NorthKent1989]

If there was any logical argument for them they would be based on test results, rather than vaccination status. We know that the vaccines don't prevent you catching the disease or transmitting it. A test (if they're worth the masses of plastic they're made from) would be a far better indicator - so while a 'passport' based on test results would also be a truly abhorrent thing, it would at least make some sense if the supposed aim is to prevent the spread of a virus.

So, what are we seeing? Moves - again in multiple countries simultaneously - to end the 'test' alternative to the vaccine certification! Either explicitly (see the UK's supposed plan for nightclubs etc. later this year, or New York) or by stealth (see Germany, which is about to start charging for tests).

If people don't see something very wrong is going on by this point, I'm not sure how they ever will.

It’s all about control, and not about the virus now, most people can see this now and events like yesterday does help raise awareness, but there is still a significant proportion of the population that want to feel superior and will back DVP’s not realising that they’ll be screwed too.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It’s all about control, and not about the virus now, most people can see this now and events like yesterday does help raise awareness, but there is still a significant proportion of the population that want to feel superior and will back DVP’s not realising that they’ll be screwed too.

Yes its about controlling the spread of the virus nothing more sinister. As to whether it will be of any use is debatable as the Delta variant is readily transmitting from double vaccinated people as it is unvaccinated people they are just less likely to get ill from it.

The wider issue is what does society want not what the government wants although there divisive approach over this has now polarised society such that a grown up discussion over the issue of how to live with covid is all but impossible now. Witness this thread and many others on this sub forum.

 

[MikeWM]

Yes its about controlling the spread of the virus nothing more sinister.

Then why even consider removing the option of a negative test as an alternative to showing you've been vaccinated? As you indeed then say

As to whether it will be of any use is debatable as the Delta variant is readily transmitting from double vaccinated people as it is unvaccinated people they are just less likely to get ill from it.

If this was only about the spread of a virus, then removing the option that shows you don't have the virus, while retaining the option where you may well indeed have the virus and be able to transmit it, would be about the least logical thing to consider doing.

 

[Cdd89]

I think the reason there isn’t much debate is because the most vocal opposition is often from those who are also vocal about being unvaccinated. The same reason why objections to lockdowns didn’t win hearts and minds, except in that case there was no way to disassociate from the Piers Corbyn types.

Given that (as noted above) vaccines enjoy extremely high uptake in the U.K., it is very hard for most people to empathise with people who haven’t taken the vaccine; and nobody would expect the unvaccinated to like vaccine passports. Hence the reality is this group are just going to get ignored, however sound their objections.

If this is an important issue for you, and your objections are around an ID card society or other similar principles (which I fully agree is highly concerning), and this is more important to you than whatever is putting you off the vaccine — then I would suggest that the best thing you can do to make the case against passports and be seriously listened to is to get vaccinated.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think the reason there isn’t much debate is because the most vocal opposition is often from those who are also vocal about being unvaccinated. The same reason why objections to lockdowns didn’t win hearts and minds, except in that case there was no way to disassociate from the Piers Corbyn types.

Given that (as noted above) vaccines enjoy extremely high uptake in the U.K., it is very hard for most people to empathise with people who haven’t taken the vaccine; and nobody would expect the unvaccinated to like vaccine passports. Hence the reality is this group are just going to get ignored.

If this is an important issue for you, and your objections are around an ID card society or other similar principles (which I fully agree is highly concerning), and this is more important to you than whatever is putting you off the vaccine — then I would suggest that the best thing you can do to make the case against passports and be seriously listened to is to get vaccinated.

I have been vaccinated but I'm not thrilled about vaccine passports. I couldn't care less if Joe Bloggs nearby has or has not been vaccinated. If I were worried about Covid, I wouldn't be going to an event with tens of thousands of people.

 

[Cdd89]

I have been vaccinated but I'm not thrilled about vaccine passports. I couldn't care less if Joe Bloggs nearby has or has not been vaccinated. If I were worried about Covid, I wouldn't be going to an event with tens of thousands of people.

My point is not that there are no vaccinated people who dislike them (that’s clearly untrue, as we are both in that group!), but that there are almost no unvaccinated people who like them.

Given that opposition to vaccine passsprts is in relatively short supply, encouraging those who oppose out of principle to do the thing which will give their opposition real credibility seems like a good idea to me — obviously subject to this being a higher priority for them than rejecting the vaccine itself (which is a highly personal decision).

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes its about controlling the spread of the virus nothing more sinister. As to whether it will be of any use is debatable as the Delta variant is readily transmitting from double vaccinated people as it is unvaccinated people they are just less likely to get ill from it.

The wider issue is what does society want not what the government wants although there divisive approach over this has now polarised society such that a grown up discussion over the issue of how to live with covid is all but impossible now. Witness this thread and many others on this sub forum.

We aren’t in March 2020, so that sentence needs to be left there, we are 18 months on, there’s no need to ‘control the spread’ at this point, vaccines have done most of the leg work, so to ‘control the spread’ as you claim, means that the vaccines aren’t doing their job at all are they? Which I don’t believe for one second, so I stand by my original statement; this is about control and not of a virus that has a 99% survival rate from either.

The very fact that the government are using coercive methods to get people to take the vaccine or else they don’t get the same freedoms as in 2019 is sinister.

It’s not impossible to discuss how to live in a post Covid world, it’s just there’s a section of society that wants a two tier system so they can feel “morally superior” all most people want is the choice, and that’s being taken away from them, and that’s wrong on so many levels

I think the reason there isn’t much debate is because the most vocal opposition is often from those who are also vocal about being unvaccinated. The same reason why objections to lockdowns didn’t win hearts and minds, except in that case there was no way to disassociate from the Piers Corbyn types.

Given that (as noted above) vaccines enjoy extremely high uptake in the U.K., it is very hard for most people to empathise with people who haven’t taken the vaccine; and nobody would expect the unvaccinated to like vaccine passports. Hence the reality is this group are just going to get ignored, however sound their objections.

If this is an important issue for you, and your objections are around an ID card society or other similar principles (which I fully agree is highly concerning), and this is more important to you than whatever is putting you off the vaccine — then I would suggest that the best thing you can do to make the case against passports and be seriously listened to is to get vaccinated.

Might be because the media have painted those sceptical of lockdowns post Lockdown#1 as being “granny murdering, anti vax, lizard people believing, Covidiots”

Even most vaccinated people don’t want vaccine passports, most people have done their bit, all DVP’s prove if anything is that those who said that DVP’s would be the outcome, correct.