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Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment

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Bald Rick

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There have been pronouncements from Harries et al that the vaccine doesn't stop spread.

It doesn’t stop it (and was never claimed to), but does reduce it by quite a margin.

Therefore the vaccine is to protect me alone, not my patients.

That doesn’t follow. It is to protect you (through reduced chance of infection, and reduced effect of infection) and your patients (as you are less likely to be infected).

If you have been offered it I would strongly recommend taking it.
 
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adc82140

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It doesn’t stop it (and was never claimed to), but does reduce it by quite a margin.



That doesn’t follow. It is to protect you (through reduced chance of infection, and reduced effect of infection) and your patients (as you are less likely to be infected).

If you have been offered it I would strongly recommend taking it.
It's been reported that viral loads for the Delta variant are the same in vaccinated people as they are in the unvaccinated.


Adults who have been fully vaccinated against SARS-CoV-2 can carry the same viral load of the delta variant as those who are unvaccinated, a preliminary analysis of UK data suggests.1

The latest results from the UK’s national covid-19 infection survey show that having two vaccine doses remains the most effective way to ensure protection against delta. But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show. The authors said the implications for transmission were not yet clear but suggested that the potential for fully vaccinated individuals to transmit the virus to others would make achieving herd immunity more of a challenge.

Sarah Walker, professor of medical statistics and epidemiology at the University of Oxford and chief investigator of the survey, said, “We don’t yet know how much transmission can happen from people who get covid-19 after being vaccinated—for example, they may have high levels of virus for shorter periods of time.

“But the fact that they can have high levels of virus suggests that people who aren’t yet vaccinated may not be as protected from the delta variant as we hoped. This means it is essential for as many people as possible to get vaccinated—both in the UK and worldwide.” /
 
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The Ham

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It's been reported that viral loads for the Delta variant are the same in vaccinated people as they are in the unvaccinated.


Indeed, however only in those who have caught it, those that haven't caught it because the vaccine had provided protection to them then the viral load is zero.
 

DustyBin

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Indeed, however only in those who have caught it, those that haven't caught it because the vaccine had provided protection to them then the viral load is zero.

The problem is, there’s a trend developing when comes to infections in the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.

C68578FF-DD82-41A1-A545-B7961ED4898E.png


The data, whilst not conclusive, raises questions wouldn’t you agree? I note this table (in this format) is “missing” from the week 45 report which again proves nothing, but why hide the data?

For what it’s worth, I think our original vaccination strategy was the right one and it worked; the vaccines have been effective at preventing serious illness and death in the vulnerable. What it is we’re now trying to achieve I have no idea, other than to say there’s been significant mission creep.
 

AlterEgo

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Does the vaccine stop you from passing Covid on once you have it?

No, it doesn't.

However it does reduce your risk of getting it in the first place. Which means that it does (overall) reduce the risk of you picking up the virus and passing it on to others (in that if you don't catch it you can't pass it on).

It's a difference which some (and I'm not saying that you are one) fail to understand.
Almost everyone who is anti-vax or vax-hesitant fails to understand this, sometimes performatively.

Being vaccinated reduces your overall chance of being infectious simply by reducing the risk of you having a breakthrough infection in the first place. Maintaining a high level of personal immunity remains just about the most sensible and civic thing to do at the moment. I will be getting my booster this month.
 

kez19

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Almost everyone who is anti-vax or vax-hesitant fails to understand this, sometimes performatively.

Being vaccinated reduces your overall chance of being infectious simply by reducing the risk of you having a breakthrough infection in the first place. Maintaining a high level of personal immunity remains just about the most sensible and civic thing to do at the moment. I will be getting my booster this month.

Really? When I caught it initially when there was no vaccine available my body fought it - are we forgetting about this too?, I’m far from being anti vax but I believed in my own body that it gained immunity from infection but still I had to get triple jabbed though.
 
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Bantamzen

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Really? When I caught it initially when there was no vaccine available my body fought it - are we forgetting about this too?, I’m far from being anti vax but I believed in my own body that it gained immunity from infection but still I had to get triple jabbed though.
Indeed, people seem to have forgotten about that little thing called our immune system. SARS-CoV-19 is not some mythical beast that our immune systems cannot see, many people who caught it early on before vaccines will have developed their own immunity. That's not to say that the vaccine isn't needed, the best strategy was always get the vaccine so that our immune systems were at least aware of some of the virus' proteins so that when we inevitably came into contact with it the immune system could quickly ramp up production of antibodies to aid the B & T cells that would be dealing with the cells already infected. However the vaccines simply train the immune system to recognise the virus, or at least bits of it. The vaccines still require people to have a healthy immune system to be effective, they are not a magic barrier from the virus.

This is why I am not in favour of a "boosters for all policy". Boosters are useful for people more vulnerable, but for most it is simply a waste of resources which could and should be focused to parts of the world struggling to get even first doses into people. What governments should be focusing on instead of forever boosters, vaccine passports etc is actually (re)educating people on how best to look after our immune systems. Diet, exercise and even mental health can all have effects on it, ironic really when you think that many governments have spent nearly two years putting people down, locking them up & making them feel guilty for something that is not their fault. Its time now to focus the vaccines where they are really needed, and not just pump them into healthy people in industrialised nations to make them feel better about themselves.
 

DustyBin

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Indeed, people seem to have forgotten about that little thing called our immune system. SARS-CoV-19 is not some mythical beast that our immune systems cannot see, many people who caught it early on before vaccines will have developed their own immunity. That's not to say that the vaccine isn't needed, the best strategy was always get the vaccine so that our immune systems were at least aware of some of the virus' proteins so that when we inevitably came into contact with it the immune system could quickly ramp up production of antibodies to aid the B & T cells that would be dealing with the cells already infected. However the vaccines simply train the immune system to recognise the virus, or at least bits of it. The vaccines still require people to have a healthy immune system to be effective, they are not a magic barrier from the virus.

This is why I am not in favour of a "boosters for all policy". Boosters are useful for people more vulnerable, but for most it is simply a waste of resources which could and should be focused to parts of the world struggling to get even first doses into people. What governments should be focusing on instead of forever boosters, vaccine passports etc is actually (re)educating people on how best to look after our immune systems. Diet, exercise and even mental health can all have effects on it, ironic really when you think that many governments have spent nearly two years putting people down, locking them up & making them feel guilty for something that is not their fault. Its time now to focus the vaccines where they are really needed, and not just pump them into healthy people in industrialised nations to make them feel better about themselves.

This sounds like quackery, what is this immune system you speak of?! ;)
 

kez19

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Indeed, people seem to have forgotten about that little thing called our immune system. SARS-CoV-19 is not some mythical beast that our immune systems cannot see, many people who caught it early on before vaccines will have developed their own immunity. That's not to say that the vaccine isn't needed, the best strategy was always get the vaccine so that our immune systems were at least aware of some of the virus' proteins so that when we inevitably came into contact with it the immune system could quickly ramp up production of antibodies to aid the B & T cells that would be dealing with the cells already infected. However the vaccines simply train the immune system to recognise the virus, or at least bits of it. The vaccines still require people to have a healthy immune system to be effective, they are not a magic barrier from the virus.

This is why I am not in favour of a "boosters for all policy". Boosters are useful for people more vulnerable, but for most it is simply a waste of resources which could and should be focused to parts of the world struggling to get even first doses into people. What governments should be focusing on instead of forever boosters, vaccine passports etc is actually (re)educating people on how best to look after our immune systems. Diet, exercise and even mental health can all have effects on it, ironic really when you think that many governments have spent nearly two years putting people down, locking them up & making them feel guilty for something that is not their fault. Its time now to focus the vaccines where they are really needed, and not just pump them into healthy people in industrialised nations to make them feel better about themselves.

Yet that was one of the oddest things throughout it, does anyone remember the eat healthy ads from the uk government (it was play doh figures?), that was advertised heavily if I recall but when COVID came it seems things like that are forgotten (it seems health initiatives by both uk and Scottish governments have gone out the window why I wonder?)
 

Bantamzen

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Yet that was one of the oddest things throughout it, does anyone remember the eat healthy ads from the uk government (it was play doh figures?), that was advertised heavily if I recall but when COVID came it seems things like that are forgotten (it seems health initiatives by both uk and Scottish governments have gone out the window why I wonder?)
It really should be the primary focus, a healthy, happy society is far less likely to suffer from viral infections. This has been observed by organisations like the WHO where people don't have access to healthy food, or are in stressful situations illness rates are often higher.
 

ainsworth74

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It really should be the primary focus, a healthy, happy society is far less likely to suffer from viral infections. This has been observed by organisations like the WHO where people don't have access to healthy food, or are in stressful situations illness rates are often higher.

That sounds like dangerous thinking to me! Doing things like that are likely be expensive, either requiring more government spending/taxation or costing companies money to comply with any requirements imposed to deliver this. We can't be having things like that! People should just be healthier, pull themselves up by their healthy bootstraps! That sort of thing!
 

Bantamzen

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That sounds like dangerous thinking to me! Doing things like that are likely be expensive, either requiring more government spending/taxation or costing companies money to comply with any requirements imposed to deliver this. We can't be having things like that! People should just be healthier, pull themselves up by their healthy bootstraps! That sort of thing!
I'm not talking necessarily about mandating changes, just making sure people better understand what simple measures we can take to better our immune systems because we seem to have forgotten all about that in this country.
 

ainsworth74

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I'm not talking necessarily about mandating changes, just making sure people better understand what simple measures we can take to better our immune systems because we seem to have forgotten all about that in this country.
I don't disagree with the principle I just don't see any Government of any stripe doing anything about it whether that be by simple education or more intense intervention. Far easier to not address the problems, allow people to die early, live with chronic health conditions they needn't have had to (or needn't have been so severe) and continue to overload the NHS with people who could have avoided it entirely with a bit more education/support. Actually trying to address them in a meaningful way means £££ and probably confronting cultural behaviours to boot.
 

35B

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Really? When I caught it initially when there was no vaccine available my body fought it - are we forgetting about this too?, I’m far from being anti vax but I believed in my own body that it gained immunity from infection but still I had to get triple jabbed though.
Yes - and the reason why we're in the current mess is that very large numbers of people found their immune systems didn't fight it off. I know people for whom Covid has been very minor, and others for whom it has been pretty damn tough despite the protection provided by vaccination. Vaccination at the very least provides significant protection by helping your immune system if you are infected.
 

kez19

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Yes - and the reason why we're in the current mess is that very large numbers of people found their immune systems didn't fight it off. I know people for whom Covid has been very minor, and others for whom it has been pretty damn tough despite the protection provided by vaccination. Vaccination at the very least provides significant protection by helping your immune system if you are infected.

So it’s people fault that their immune system failed?

What gets me is at the beginning of this I had no help or support but to fight on but as if by magic a vaccine comes along, we were told it be not once but twice jabbed and then now a third all within a year and in less than 6 months and I’m meant to be happy with it? I wouldn’t have mind if I was only jabbed once but 3 times to me sounds alarm bells to me but still we all think differently

I had COVID fought it but I just lost a close relative to it this week and I can see this both ways.

It’s a bit ironic that I suddenly feel Stephen King on me … the Fool Me Once quote sticks out.
 

kez19

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Having to have regular jabs isn't particularly unusual. It's the same with flu.

I am aware that the flu jab is once a year but to me COVID is a stretch and within a year. What other jabs do you get regularly throughout the year? I don't travel outwith the UK and I only work in care so what else am I missing?

All I see on the NHS England site for adults is: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/nhs-vaccinations-and-when-to-have-them/

65 yearsPneumococcal (PPV) vaccine
65 years (and every year after)Flu vaccine
70 yearsShingles vaccine
 

bspahh

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So it’s people fault that their immune system failed?

What gets me is at the beginning of this I had no help or support but to fight on but as if by magic a vaccine comes along, we were told it be not once but twice jabbed and then now a third all within a year and in less than 6 months and I’m meant to be happy with it? I wouldn’t have mind if I was only jabbed once but 3 times to me sounds alarm bells to me but still we all think differently

I had COVID fought it but I just lost a close relative to it this week and I can see this both ways.

It’s a bit ironic that I suddenly feel Stephen King on me … the Fool Me Once quote sticks out.
The human immune system has been selected through evolution (IMHO). There is a balance to strike between having an immune response that clears up an infection, and having an immune response which stops you from being able to hunt or gather food, or escape from predators. In evolutionary terms, it doesn't matter if some individuals die. It does matter if you don't keep a big enough population to keep breeding.

Different people have different immune responses. We have a society which can look after sick people. Vaccines can be an effective way of dealing with infections for a population. Vaccines that cost £10 a dose can be good value if they save £££ from intensive care.

This is a global pandemic, where the medical response is being formulated in real time. If anyone tells you they know exactly what should happen, they don't know what they are talking about.
 

yorksrob

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I am aware that the flu jab is once a year but to me COVID is a stretch and within a year. What other jabs do you get regularly throughout the year? I don't travel outwith the UK and I only work in care so what else am I missing?

True. I suspect that those of us over fifty are getting booster jabs to be on the safe side, as it's as new virus.

It's those of us under fifties who aren't getting the booster who will ultimately demonstrate that continual boosters aren't needed for the general population. It takes time though.
 

kez19

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The human immune system has been selected through evolution (IMHO). There is a balance to strike between having an immune response that clears up an infection, and having an immune response which stops you from being able to hunt or gather food, or escape from predators. In evolutionary terms, it doesn't matter if some individuals die. It does matter if you don't keep a big enough population to keep breeding.

Different people have different immune responses. We have a society which can look after sick people. Vaccines can be an effective way of dealing with infections for a population. Vaccines that cost £10 a dose can be good value if they save £££ from intensive care.

This is a global pandemic, where the medical response is being formulated in real time. If anyone tells you they know exactly what should happen, they don't know what they are talking about.

I understand that but then as you point out vaccines costs - so money goes into big pharma. Just like the predicted modellings we heard of Ferguson to which ended up being well ... struck down.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

True. I suspect that those of us over fifty are getting booster jabs to be on the safe side, as it's as new virus.

It's those of us under fifties who aren't getting the booster who will ultimately demonstrate that continual boosters aren't needed for the general population. It takes time though.


You could class me as one of those that has had to get one of those boosters since I work in care but on the principle and I agree I think my booster could have went to someone else.
 

bramling

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Indeed, people seem to have forgotten about that little thing called our immune system. SARS-CoV-19 is not some mythical beast that our immune systems cannot see, many people who caught it early on before vaccines will have developed their own immunity. That's not to say that the vaccine isn't needed, the best strategy was always get the vaccine so that our immune systems were at least aware of some of the virus' proteins so that when we inevitably came into contact with it the immune system could quickly ramp up production of antibodies to aid the B & T cells that would be dealing with the cells already infected. However the vaccines simply train the immune system to recognise the virus, or at least bits of it. The vaccines still require people to have a healthy immune system to be effective, they are not a magic barrier from the virus.

This is why I am not in favour of a "boosters for all policy". Boosters are useful for people more vulnerable, but for most it is simply a waste of resources which could and should be focused to parts of the world struggling to get even first doses into people. What governments should be focusing on instead of forever boosters, vaccine passports etc is actually (re)educating people on how best to look after our immune systems. Diet, exercise and even mental health can all have effects on it, ironic really when you think that many governments have spent nearly two years putting people down, locking them up & making them feel guilty for something that is not their fault. Its time now to focus the vaccines where they are really needed, and not just pump them into healthy people in industrialised nations to make them feel better about themselves.

Great post.
 

yorksrob

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I understand that but then as you point out vaccines costs - so money goes into big pharma. Just like the predicted modellings we heard of Ferguson to which ended up being well ... struck down.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==




You could class me as one of those that has had to get one of those boosters since I work in care but on the principle and I agree I think my booster could have went to someone else.

Well, I would say that, we just don't know whether boosters are needed or not.

My hunch is that for the majority they aren't, but I'd prefer my older parents to have boosters to be on the safe side while we get to know our new virus.
 

Cdd89

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I absolutely expect to be offered the booster. Maybe not for free, but it is now required by enough countries that my travel would be limited otherwise. It also needs to be displayed on the vaccine passport.
 

Eyersey468

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I can see the sense in one booster for the most vulnerable, however if everyone is going to be required to have a booster every few months for the rest of their lives it seems to me to be a complete waste of time and effort.
 

asw22

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Boosters may be ok in the UK but I think that we need to think internationally as well.
If substantial parts of the world are not being offered anything, while the UK is mandating a booster every 6 months then this could go on for years - a money tree for pharma?

I'm a bit worried about the covid mandate for care homes and NHS workers - while as far as I know private health care workers are not included so i wonder who is likely to benefit here.
 

Bantamzen

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Boosters may be ok in the UK but I think that we need to think internationally as well.
If substantial parts of the world are not being offered anything, while the UK is mandating a booster every 6 months then this could go on for years - a money tree for pharma?

I'm a bit worried about the covid mandate for care homes and NHS workers - while as far as I know private health care workers are not included so i wonder who is likely to benefit here.
It is a money tree for pharmas, especially when you consider that around the time that boosters came into the equation both Pfizer & Moderna increased the cost of the vaccines. If that doesn't raise eyebrows I've no idea what would.
 

AlterEgo

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Really? When I caught it initially when there was no vaccine available my body fought it - are we forgetting about this too?, I’m far from being anti vax but I believed in my own body that it gained immunity from infection but still I had to get triple jabbed though.
Why would you not get jabbed? If I catch the flu I’d still get my flu jab if offered.
 

kez19

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Why would you not get jabbed? If I catch the flu I’d still get my flu jab if offered.

personal choice? I rarely get the flu jab either but since having a reaction couple years back I don’t want it, I believe in letting the body tackling viruses head on

In terms of COVID: I believe at the time before the vaccine came about the media had said something like your body would have had antibodies from it so in my opinion from that was I fought it and didn’t need it.

I’ll use a turn of phrase here since you asked why I didn’t want to be jabbed, I could have really told you it’s none of your business as it’s personal but since I’m an open book.
 
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Richard Scott

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Why would you not get jabbed? If I catch the flu I’d still get my flu jab if offered.
Flu has a different strain every year hence the need for a job. Coronaviruses are much more stable so not necessary. Not comparing like for like.
 
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