Valid Ticket but nowhere to appeal settlement letter

[om2314]

Afternoon All,

I have been out of the country for 2 weeks and on my return had a letter with a settlement figure of £130.60 for fare evasion.

A bit of background: I was travelling back from whittlesford parkway to Harlow Town with a broken phone which had my ticket on, trying to charge my phone the whole way back so I could get the ticket up but it wouldn’t charge. My work purchase my tickets and I collect them at a machine using a reference and a bank card.

Just my luck to get back to Harlow and the place is swarmed with enforcement officers. I explained my situation and they said I’d get a fine but could appeal it and show I had a valid ticket (which I did and still do). I accepted the fine as I knew it wouldn’t go any further once I showed my valid ticket.

As I have only just been made aware of the letter I am now worried as it’s my last day to pay the fine before legal proceedings take place. There is nowhere online to appeal the settlement letter and I am unsure of my options as I can’t seem to find a phone number to contact anyone or email address. Has anyone had this problem before?

I am worried as I can’t afford a £130 fine and don’t really want to go to court but it doesn’t seem like there are many other obvious options.

Thank you.

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum, although I imagine you would rather not be joining us under the circumstances...

A bit of background: I was travelling back from whittlesford parkway to Harlow Town with a broken phone which had my ticket on, trying to charge my phone the whole way back so I could get the ticket up but it wouldn’t charge. My work purchase my tickets and I collect them at a machine using a reference and a bank card.

I'm a little confused as to why you were charging your phone to "get the ticket up" but were intending on using tickets that you would collect at a machine - were you (intending on) using an e-ticket, or a paper ticket?

If it was an e-ticket, then why were you collecting this at a machine?

If it was a paper ticket, why were you unable to collect the tickets before departing Whittlesford Parkway?

I explained my situation and they said I’d get a fine but could appeal it and show I had a valid ticket (which I did and still do). I accepted the fine as I knew it wouldn’t go any further once I showed my valid ticket.

Unfortunately it is commonplace for revenue protection staff to give unfounded and misleading assurances that an appeal will definitely succeed in order to reassure passengers. In your case they were wrong to suggest that the matter would be dropped once you could demonstrate a ticket had been bought - it's an offence to fail to show a valid ticket when travelling, so showing you bought a ticket afterwards isn't a defence.

This misleading sort of reassurance is a thoroughly distasteful practice in my view, but unfortunately it doesn't change the fact that, if the ticket buying facilities at Whittlesford Parkway were in working order when you started your journey, you committed a criminal offence if you boarded the train without a valid ticket or were unable to produce a ticket for inspection.

As I have only just been made aware of the letter I am now worried as it’s my last day to pay the fine before legal proceedings take place. There is nowhere online to appeal the settlement letter and I am unsure of my options as I can’t seem to find a phone number to contact anyone or email address. Has anyone had this problem before?

If this matter is being handled as a criminal offence rather than through means of a Penalty Fare, unfortunately there is no right to appeal. You have the choice between accepting the settlement offer or being prosecuted.

I am worried as I can’t afford a £130 fine and don’t really want to go to court but it doesn’t seem like there are many other obvious options.

Unfortunately it's unlikely you have any alternatives, but if you upload the letter you've received - with any personal details such as your name, address, the exact date/time and any reference numbers redacted - we can advise further.

 

[om2314]

Welcome to the forum, although I imagine you would rather not be joining us under the circumstances...


I'm a little confused as to why you were charging your phone to "get the ticket up" but were intending on using tickets that you would collect at a machine - were you (intending on) using an e-ticket, or a paper ticket?

If it was an e-ticket, then why were you collecting this at a machine?

If it was a paper ticket, why were you unable to collect the tickets before departing Whittlesford Parkway?


Unfortunately it is commonplace for revenue protection staff to give unfounded and misleading assurances that an appeal will definitely succeed in order to reassure passengers. In your case they were wrong to suggest that the matter would be dropped once you could demonstrate a ticket had been bought - it's an offence to fail to show a valid ticket when travelling, so showing you bought a ticket afterwards isn't a defence.

This misleading sort of reassurance is a thoroughly distasteful practice in my view, but unfortunately it doesn't change the fact that, if the ticket buying facilities at Whittlesford Parkway were in working order when you started your journey, you committed a criminal offence if you boarded the train without a valid ticket or were unable to produce a ticket for inspection.


If this matter is being handled as a criminal offence rather than through means of a Penalty Fare, unfortunately there is no right to appeal. You have the choice between accepting the settlement offer or being prosecuted.


Unfortunately it's unlikely you have any alternatives, but if you upload the letter you've received - with any personal details such as your name, address, the exact date/time and any reference numbers redacted - we can advise further.

When my work purchase tickets for me I have to print them off at a machine as a physical ticket with a reference code sent to me via email. As my phone wasn’t working I had no way of printing my ticket off as I couldn’t get the email with the ticket reference up. I also wouldn’t have been able to purchase a ticket as had no wallet and Apple Pay not working because my phone was not working.

So basically what you’re saying is I’ve been lied to and now have to pay £130 for travelling on a train where I did in fact have a valid ticket. Do you think I can argue my case in court or would that be a waste of time given the circumstances.

 

[Haywain]

Do you think I can argue my case in court or would that be a waste of time given the circumstances.

A complete waste of time. I doubt there's a better solution than paying the amount requested.

You boarded a train without a ticket and without the means to buy a ticket which means that you have committed an offence. The fact that a ticket that you could not access had been purchased does not alter that fact. Sorry.

 

[Snow1964]

When my work purchase tickets for me I have to print them off at a machine as a physical ticket with a reference code sent to me via email. As my phone wasn’t working I had no way of printing my ticket off as I couldn’t get the email with the ticket reference up. I also wouldn’t have been able to purchase a ticket as had no wallet and Apple Pay not working because my phone was not working.

Ok so your defence is that you basically decided to rely on a single unreliable piece of technology, and travelled with no cash or card.

1) You chose not to write down the code on a piece of paper before going to the machine
2) You travelled with no funds, so couldn't buy a ticket
3) Just because you have Apple Pay loaded doesn't mean paying cash or card is not alternatives.

I don't think taking that to court would be good idea, sorry to be blunt, but you would basically be relying on lack of thought or preparation as a defence, which is not going to get anywhere.

 

[om2314]

Ok thank you anyway for your help.

A complete waste of time. I doubt there's a better solution than paying the amount requested.

You boarded a train without a ticket and without the means to buy a ticket which means that you have committed an offence. The fact that a ticket that you could not access had been purchased does not alter that fact. Sorry.

 

[island]

There is no right to "appeal" a settlement offer. Your choices are 1) pay it or 2) do not pay it and have your day in court.

I recommend 1) rather than 2). As you had no ticket nor means to purchase one, in law this is sufficient to prove that you intended to avoid payment of your fare. You have no defence and if you let it go to court you'll end up with a bill likely £600+, and a probable criminal record.

 

[Watershed]

Ok so your defence is that you basically decided to rely on a single unreliable piece of technology, and travelled with no cash or card.

1) You chose not to write down the code on a piece of paper before going to the machine
2) You travelled with no funds, so couldn't buy a ticket
3) Just because you have Apple Pay loaded doesn't mean paying cash or card is not alternatives.

I don't think taking that to court would be good idea, sorry to be blunt, but you would basically be relying on lack of common sense or stupidity as a defence.

There's perhaps nicer ways of putting it than this, but yes - in essence, the OP had no ticket and no means to pay. Having paid for a ticket isn't a defence against a prosecution under the Railway Byelaws - you need to show a valid ticket when you travel. The OP should have returned to home/work and obtained a method of payment before setting out on their journey.

There is no right to "appeal" a settlement offer. Your choices are 1) pay it or 2) do not pay it and have your day in court.

I recommend 1) rather than 2). As you had no ticket nor means to purchase one, in law this is sufficient to prove that you intended to avoid payment of your fare. You have no defence and if you let it go to court you'll end up with a bill likely £600+, and a probable criminal record.

Assuming you're referring to section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 with your phrase "intended to avoid payment of your fare", this is unhelpful to say the least - as the first element of the offence is that the fare hasn't been paid for. In this case, it has been paid for, so no offence can be alleged to have been committed under that particular section.

That still doesn't protect the OP from a prosecution under the Railway Byelaws, of course - as the Byelaws require a valid ticket to be produced, which is different from needing to have paid the fare. Nevertheless, it's important not to confuse the OP by talking about extraneous factors.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's perhaps nicer ways of putting it than this, but yes - in essence, the OP had no ticket (having paid for one isn't sufficient in law) and no means to pay. The OP should have returned to home/work and obtained a method of payment before setting out on their journey.

I think it’s also been mentioned a few weeks back that a TOD is not going to be charged to the paying account until it’s printed. So a ticket still awaiting pick up isn’t “paid for” yet. Another reason it’s not a ‘valid ticket’.

 

[island]

I think it’s also been mentioned a few weeks back that a TOD is not going to be charged to the paying account until it’s printed. So a ticket still awaiting pick up isn’t “paid for” yet. Another reason it’s not a ‘valid ticket’.

A TOD ticket is charged for as soon as it's ordered, for normal customers anyway. I suppose it's possible that corporate accounts may have special arrangements to pay by invoice based on tickets actually collected.

 

[methecooldude]

A TOD ticket is charged for as soon as it's ordered, for normal customers anyway. I suppose it's possible that corporate accounts may have special arrangements to pay by invoice based on tickets actually collected.

Yes, and there has been instances where TODs purchased on Trainline for example which are not collected are automatically refunded. Hence if you do not collect the ticket, you do not have a ticket.

 

[Watershed]

Yes, and there has been instances where TODs purchased on Trainline for example which are not collected are automatically refunded. Hence if you do not collect the ticket, you do not have a ticket.

You don't have a ticket, but my understanding is that the refund isn't processed until after the ticket's validity has expired - so at the point of making the journey, the fare would still have been paid, which negates any RoRA offence.

 

[cool110]

I think it’s also been mentioned a few weeks back that a TOD is not going to be charged to the paying account until it’s printed.

That's the point at which the funds are allocated through ORCATS, the customer is charged at the time of booking.

 

[furlong]

I am worried as I can’t afford a £130 fine and don’t really want to go to court but it doesn’t seem like there are many other obvious options.

The other obvious option is to discuss the matter with your "work" and see if they will contribute anything towards what you call the "fine".

 

[island]

Assuming you're referring to section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 with your phrase "intended to avoid payment of your fare", this is unhelpful to say the least - as the first element of the offence is that the fare hasn't been paid for. In this case, it has been paid for, so no offence can be alleged to have been committed under that particular section.

I would disagree. The case law suggests that a passenger who is not in possession of their ticket, and does not seek to regularise the situation by paying their fare, or who tries to keep hold of a ticket to use on another occasion, can be convicted of intending to avoid payment of his fare. A fare might have been paid, but not his fare. In this scenario the passenger did not, it seems, attempt to collect the ticket at any point. See for example Butler vs M.S.& L.R. Co. (1888) 21 QBD 207 and Browning vs Floyd (1946) KB 597. The facts are not entirely the same but it will depend on what was said in the interview under caution.

However:

That still doesn't protect the OP from a prosecution under the Railway Byelaws, of course - as the Byelaws require a valid ticket to be produced, which is different from needing to have paid the fare.

Agreed, and it's more likely this will be the legislation used to prosecute as it's easier to prove.

 

[Titfield]

The other obvious option is to discuss the matter with your "work" and see if they will contribute anything towards what you call the "fine".

Presumably that includes the fare avoided which "work" should reimburse the OP for because they have presumably been refunded (or will be) the uncollected ticket.

Do you have a union rep at work you can talk to?

Have you spoken to your boss at work? He / she may call you a xxxxx (expletive deleted) but a decent boss wouldnt want to see one of their subordinates out of pocket by this amount for an unfortunate (non deliberate) failing.

I would pay the £130.60 straight away because if this matter escalates you will almost certainly be in a far worse position and "work" may not be prepared to reimburse a greater amount because you didnt stop it escalating. Pay it and then see what you can do to recover it,

I would certainly make an appeal to passenger services (or whatever they are called at the TOC) and see if they will reimburse you or at least may offer a part reimbursal.

 

[Hadders]

I would pay the outstanding amount to prevent the matter from escalating.

If it ends up in court you would not win.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I would pay the outstanding amount to prevent the matter from escalating.

If it ends up in court you would not win.

And it will cost you a lot more and you will have a criminal conviction, albeit a minor one. Unfortunately I think you need to take this one on the chin and pay up asap.