Valid ZZ routes from Sheffield

[caughtonatrain]

Hi everybody,

I frequently use the sleeper to get to various Scottish destinations to/from Sheffield.

Until recently, the routeing guide would show various "+ZZ" combinations allowing the use of the sleeper as a permitted route. National Rail Enquiries would show a number of valid itineraries, usually via Preston but also via Crewe as long as Northern stopper services were used across the Pennines (as this meant the no-double-back rule wasn't broken at Stockport).

However, all references to the ZZ maps seem to have been removed from the online Routeing guide when Sheffield Group is the origin or destination. National Rail Enqs returns nothing now.

Most other cities have a vast selection of valid routes to/from Edinburgh (even Barnsley, a few miles up the road, does!) but Sheffield seems now restricted to East Coast only.

Am I missing something?

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

The shortest route is always valid. Therefore, Sheffield > Leeds > Carlisle > Glasgow is valid without having to consult the RG, although that is no use for the sleeper.

I don't know why ZZ has been removed. This is what I get from thetrainline-branded planners for a journey to FTW:-

 SHEFFIELD                   13:18       Train       NORTHERN RAIL 
 LEEDS           14:18       14:49       Train       NORTHERN RAIL 
 CARLISLE        17:28       17:58       Train       FIRST SCOTRAIL 
 GLASGOW CENTRAL 20:27       20:49       Train       FIRST SCOTRAIL 
 PARTICK         20:56       21:17       Train       FIRST SCOTRAIL 
 DALMUIR         21:34       06:04       Train       FIRST SCOTRAIL 
 FORT WILLIAM    09:54

A B&B in Dalmuir would be required for that!

I'm sure you won't have a problem going on the sleeper anyway even if it's not officially valid in the RG.

 

[glynn80]

Using a Sheffield to Glasgow ticket the following mapped routes are valid
ER+YL,
MM,
MM+WG,
NE+YL,
NL+NW,
NL+WG

ER+YL is EC

MM is via Settle/Carlisle

NE+YL is EC

MM+WG allows you to travel Sheffield- Leeds- Hellifield- Lancaster- Carlisle- Glasgow (with some slight variation), this still doesn't get you on the sleeper though.

NL+NW allows you to travel Sheffield- Manchester- Bolton- Preston- Carlisle- Glasgow
(with some slight variation), this now gets you on the sleeper from Preston

NL+WG allows you pretty much the same as NL+NW but you can travel via to Cumbrian Coast if you wish but you can't go via Dumfries which you can on NL+NW.

So my suggestion would be to purchase a Sheffield to Glasgow ticket (or to any station with a higher fare than Sheffield to Glasgow that still has Glasgow as a routeing point) and use the sleeper into Glasgow.

Obv. if you need to use the sleeper into Edinburgh you can split your tickets at Barnsley if that is still valid on ZZ.

 

[caughtonatrain]

Thanks for your replies, Yorkie and Glynn80

I didn't realise quite how many different routes I could try between Sheffield and Glasgow ... have done the S&C ... but cumbrian coast sounds good.

I'm glad to see that getting the sleeper at Preston is valid for journeys north from Sheffield. I always preferred Crewe because you get longer on the Sleeper, but I always suspected it was on the margins on validity ... now it doesn't seem valid at all which is a shame.

I don't suppose it matters much. FSR sleeper staff in my experience are always really friendly and tend not to worry as long as you've got your berth supplement and some form of ticket between England and Scotland!

Incidentally, the week before last it was all academic - sleepers were diverted down ECML so for my Inverkeithing-Sheffield ticket I got to go Inverkeithing-Euston-(walk)-St Pancras-Sheffield. Bit of a long way round!

 

[djw1981]

Minor issue could be booking Sleeper to Edin vs Glasgow. Glasgow is valid via WC, not sure how often Edinburgh is. You could always split tickets if needed.

 

[John @ home]

Sheffield seems now restricted to East Coast only.

Am I missing something?

As Yorkie has explained, Sheffield to Glasgow Group is not restricted to East Coast only but, far from missing something, you have discovered a significant anomaly.

I can't explain why routes including ZZ have been removed from Sheffield. It's probably just an error. But the good news is that PS+ZZ is still available from Doncaster.

On map PS from Doncaster, to catch a sleeper you must travel via Sheffield and from there you can go to either Crewe or Preston to pick up the sleeper. From Sheffield to Preston must be via Manchester, via Burnley is not allowed. From Sheffield to Crewe must be via Stockport, via Derby is not allowed.

Anytime fares from Doncaster are cheaper than those from Sheffield, even though you have to travel via Sheffield, but Off Peak fares are a few pounds more. Taking your Fort William example, walk-on return fares are:

Doncaster - Fort William: FOR £339, SOR £243, SVR £114.80 8E.
Sheffield - Fort William: FOR £369, SOR £263, SVR £110.50 8X.

Break of journey (eg. in Sheffield) is allowed on both legs with all these fares.

John

 

[caughtonatrain]

Thanks John, this is really helpful. The thing that annoys me the most is that Inverkeithing, a stop I use a lot on the London-Aberdeen sleeper, is now "technically" denied to me from Sheffield, although if I get my ticket from Doncaster it's fine!! As far as I'm concerned it's a huge anomaly.

My question becomes:
Is there anything nefarious behind this, do you think, or is it simply an oversight? It seems strange that alternations to the NRG would lead to things being taken out of it....

 

[John @ home]

Is there anything nefarious behind this, do you think, or is it simply an oversight?

Probably a mistake, but worth sorting out. I think you should use the "Disputed Routeing Procedure": http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/instructions.htm

I can provide you with copies of Section C of the 2007 and 2008 National Routeing Guides. These show that in 2007 maps PS+NW+ZZ and PS+ZZ gave permitted routes between Sheffield Group and Glasgow Group, but that in September 2008 these options had been deleted.

John