Validity of Gatwick Airport - Brixton, route +Any Permitted

[YorkC]

Just want to say at the outset here that I know about the Gatwick Express validity dispute and it's not really what this is about.

I was travelling on this ticket last night, having bought it (rather than the Not Gatwick Express route) not realising that the Gatwick Express wasn't running. I got a Southern service from Gatwick to Victoria and got the Victoria line underground from there. My ticket worked the barrier at Victoria with no problems, but when I got to Stockwell (stopping short there, given that it was obviously a reasonable route on the tube to Brixton) the ticket didn't work the exit barrier there.

I told the LU worker on duty there that I'd got the "Seek assistance" message and he immediately just said "That's not valid here. You should be on a train". I pointed out that it had the Maltese cross on it, that I'd checked at the ticket office before buying that it was valid on the underground, and that I was clearly on a reasonable route. He said "I don't care what it says there, it's not valid -- look at that", before pointing me to error code 13 on the barrier. I got a bit irritated by the way he was going on when I was (reasonably) sure I was right, and said "fine, but what does that say?", pointing to the bit on the back of the NR ticket that describes the meaning of the + symbol. He just gave up and let me through.

So in summary, was I right? I'm pretty sure that it was valid solely due to having the Maltese cross on the ticket, but are National Rail tickets valid on the Underground to Brixton anyway? And finally, would this ticket have worked the exit barrier at Brixton, and did problems just arise because I stopped short?

 

[Romilly]

I think that the ticket is valid to Brixton National Rail station and not Brixton LU station. In particular, I don't think that a ticket valid from Gatwick to Brixton LU station would actually mention Brixton. And neither Brixton LU nor Stockwell LU is an LU station at which you can begin or end a cross-London transfer authorised by the maltese cross.

Given that you went into Victoria, you didn't need to rely on the maltese cross and could have come back out on a train to Brixton NR.

And although I agree that it is understood that you can break (although not resume) your cross-London transfer on LU, the point to my mind is that you were not on a cross-London transfer.

(Thinking about it, the maltese cross would be for something like London Bridge to Elephant & Castle if you had taken a Thameslink train north from Gatwick.)

 

[yorkie]

I agree with Romilly that it's a ticket to Brixton [BRX] National Rail.

A ticket issued for a journey to Brixton LU would be issued to Zone U1 London.

Rightly or wrongly, the two Brixtons are not considered to be the same station. I do think that this confusion should be avoided by not having any stations of the same name that are considered separate.

 

[bb21]

I disagree.

Both Victoria LU and Brixton LU are interchange stations for cross-London transfers and this is clearly a reasonable interchange for the OP's journey. There is no requirement for the journey to both start and finish on National Rail.

Stopping short at Stockwell is therefore, by definition, valid.

 

[RJ]

I wouldn't have done it, because it involves arguing that you're doing a Cross London transfer when you're not transferring to anywhere.

 

[talldave]

If YorkC had switched to the underground at Balham, there would been a very valid reason for being at Stockwell and stopping short there?

However, for future reference, there was a cheaper option available that would have avoided all the grief. I've taken the Sunday night timing of the journey to infer it was a single journey - in which case an inboundary Travelcard and a Gatwick - Boundary Zone 6 single would have been 70p cheaper. That option is also valid on the Gatwick Express. A split at East Croydon is the same price but loses you the Gatwick Express validity, so is pointless.

 

[Romilly]

To pick up bb21's point, I think that the list of stations at para. 7.3.1 of the Forum's Fares Guide needs updating as, unlike the list on National Rail, it does not include Brixton (so far as I can see).

But even had I been looking at the most up-to-date list, I think that I would be thinking along the same lines as RJ.

 

[infobleep]

Why does the ticket have a Maltese Cross? Is it possible to do cross London transfer to Brixton from Gatwick Airport? If changing a Balham counts for cross London transfer, could it be argued that getting out at Brixton underground station and walking to Brixton mainline station would count?

 

[yorkie]

As for updating the Guide, we do appreciate suggestions, please do PM the author of the post with any updates

Why does the ticket have a Maltese Cross?

Probably because the ticket is valid via all permitted London Terminals.

Is it possible to do cross London transfer to Brixton from Gatwick Airport?

Yes,

If changing a Balham counts for cross London transfer, could it be argued that getting out at Brixton underground station and walking to Brixton mainline station would count?

That depends on your interpretation of various rules, including perhaps whether or not a journey can start or finish with a walk, or can start or finish with a cross London transfer.

I've not said "it's valid" or "it's not valid", and will purposefully avoid saying either way

However the gateline at Brixton will accept the ticket, so had the OP alighted at Brixton, there would have been no discussion.

 

[infobleep]

As for updating the Guide, we do appreciate suggestions, please do PM the author of the post with any updates

Probably because the ticket is valid via all permitted London Terminals.

Yes,

That depends on your interpretation of various rules, including perhaps whether or not a journey can start or finish with a walk, or can start or finish with a cross London transfer.

I've not said "it's valid" or "it's not valid", and will purposefully avoid saying either way

However the gateline at Brixton will accept the ticket, so had the OP alighted at Brixton, there would have been no discussion.

Thanks for explaining that. I'd forgotten about travelling to other London Terminals.

 

[pne]

Is it possible to do cross London transfer to Brixton from Gatwick Airport?

Gatwick Airport - Thameslink to Blackfriars - Tube to Victoria - Southeastern to Brixton

is one possibility.

 

[YorkC]

Many thanks for all replies. I thought I'd understood the cross-London marker properly but evidently not. I was under the impression that the Maltese Cross marker made the ticket valid for any journey stopping short to any station in the NR list but it seems (at least perhaps) not.

Just one question, though. Why is it valid to e.g. travel on a (say) York - Tottenham Hale +Any Permitted ticket and end the journey via LU at Tottenham Hale (or any station on a reasonable route to TOM) rather than NR, but (at least perhaps) not to do so at Brixton (or any station on a reasonable route to BRX)? I'm guessing that Tottenham Hale NR & LU is considered one station and "Tottenham Hale" on an NR ticket means "Tottenham Hale NR/LU", whereas Brixton LU and NR are separate stations and "Brixton" on an NR ticket means "Brixton NR". Is this correct? And if so, how is anyone who doesn't know all of the intricacies of ticketing supposed to know this? I directly asked the ticket office employee (one who's been very helpful in the past, and seems generally clued up) at York prior to travel if this was valid via the Victoria line to Brixton, and he said yes.

I'm absolutely not disputing anything anyone has said regarding validity here and am very grateful for all comments, but I think the most reasonable interpretation of the ticket (attached, for completeness), especially when coupled with the text on the reverse that states "+ denotes ticket is valid for one journey across London by Underground/DLR services if required", would be that the ticket is valid to Brixton via the Underground...

 

[YorkC]

I've also just asked NR Enquiries on twitter if this is valid and they replied with "Yes this should be fine".

 

[Paul Kelly]

Many thanks for all replies. I thought I'd understood the cross-London marker properly but evidently not. I was under the impression that the Maltese Cross marker made the ticket valid for any journey stopping short to any station in the NR list but it seems (at least perhaps) not.

It is my understanding that the cross-London Underground journey needs to be on a reasonable route between the two NR portions of the journey, which makes it a bit less straightforward than what you say.

Just one question, though. Why is it valid to e.g. travel on a (say) York - Tottenham Hale +Any Permitted ticket and end the journey via LU at Tottenham Hale

Is it? The ticket will work the barrier at Tottenham Hale LU (because it is on the list of cross-London transfer stations), so there shouldn't be any issues. And it could certainly be seen as a reasonable route (going via Liverpool Street would be a rather large detour) - but I don't think it is necessarily valid. A ticket to e.g. Northumberland Park would be unequivocally OK though.

 

[YorkC]

It is my understanding that the cross-London Underground journey needs to be on a reasonable route between the two NR portions of the journey, which makes it a bit less straightforward than what you say.

Is it? The ticket will work the barrier at Tottenham Hale LU (because it is on the list of cross-London transfer stations), so there shouldn't be any issues. And it could certainly be seen as a reasonable route (going via Liverpool Street would be a rather large detour) - but I don't think it is necessarily valid. A ticket to e.g. Northumberland Park would be unequivocally OK though.

NRE advertises it as a valid route on a single ticket.

e.g. http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...ed=false&outwardResponseId=4&&fareDisplayId=2 (I think this link should work, but it's just a case of typing YRK-TOM into the NRE journey planner...)

 

[swt_passenger]

Many thanks for all replies. I thought I'd understood the cross-London marker properly but evidently not. I was under the impression that the Maltese Cross marker made the ticket valid for any journey stopping short to any station in the NR list but it seems (at least perhaps) not.

The cross London Marker does allow for travel between 'appropriate' pairs of stations for the route being undertaken, but although the NR instructions allow for you to leave the LU system at an intermediate location this is not apparently programmed into LU's ticket barriers. This is no different to most National Rail barriers, which by default do not allow exit at intermediate stations 'en route'.

So you are always left at the whims of LU gateline staff, the majority seem to forget any relevant training they've ever had as soon as they see a National Rail ticket.

 

[YorkC]

The cross London Marker does allow for travel between 'appropriate' pairs of stations for the route being undertaken, but although the NR instructions allow for you to leave the LU system at an intermediate location this is not apparently programmed into LU's ticket barriers.

Yeah, sorry -- that bit of my post wasn't clear. I meant "I was under the impression that the Maltese Cross marker made the ticket valid for any journey stopping short to any appropriate station in the NR list but it seems (at least perhaps) not" -- and furthermore I assumed that Brixton NR/LU was treated just as e.g. Tottenham Hale NR/LU seems to be, making Brixton LU an appropriate station.