Validity of London to Holyhead SVR on WSMR

[DLA365]

Would a return portion of a SVR return from Holyhead to London Terminals be valid on the WSMR between London and Wrexham General, where interchange possibilities for Holyhead can be made?

Also, if there are restrictions associated with this ticket, what is the earliest departure time from London?

Thanks

 

[paul1609]

No London Marylebone to Coventry/ Birmingham is not a valid route to Shotton Group so the ticket would not be valid.

 

[DLA365]

Is there a map of all the valid routes that can be used to go from London to Holyhead?

Thanks

 

[paul1609]

The online routing guide is here:
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide.asp
but its not that easy to use!

 

[dan_atki]

Valid routes for this journey: (by ATOC purposes journeys are to Shotton, where you can take the shortest route to Holyhead - either direct or changing at Rhyl).

BC+TV: London Euston to Birmingham/Wolverhampton, Birmingham/Woverhampton to Shrewsbury/Wrexham/Shotton (and then to Holyhead).

CH+BC+TV: As above but allows journeys via Crewe and Chester as well.

LC: London Euston and up the WCML (via Northampton, Birmingham, Walsall, Nuneaton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent are all valid) to Crewe, onto Chester and then Shotton.

CL+LC: As above but allows journeys via Warrington, Runcorn, and Chester (arguably even via Liverpool, Hooton, and Chester too).

Looking at the routeing guide, you must use Euston as the London Terminal.


Regarding the restrictions, this ticket has (if it has not been changed) a code of 8A. Along with the restrictions on SVR tickets, this means that:

You must travel out on the date on your ticket, by any train.
You may NOT break your journey on the outward portion (but is allowed on the return portion).
Return can be used within one calendar month (as I'm sure you know), again on any train.

 

[Edvid]

I see you beat me to it, and with a better post to boot!

The Routeing Guide on the ATOC website has not been updated for 8 months. Whether or not it'll include a route that involves Marylebone when updated is another matter...

 

[dan_atki]

I see you beat me to it, and with a better post to boot!

The Routeing Guide on the ATOC website has not been updated for 8 months. Whether or not it'll include a route that involves Marylebone when updated is another matter...

Yes the version on the ATOC site is 'old' by today's standards when we have new routes. Sadly, though, that is the authoritative source at present and we have to live with it despite it being slightly outdated.

 

[yorkie]

DLA365 - it will be accepted. If in doubt ask the TM. I'd be shocked if they turned you away.

 

[paul1609]

Yorkie,
I'm not sure thats such good advice. The ticket clearly isnt valid. To get to the WSMR train he has to pass through the ticket barriers at Marylebone and I doubt they will accept his ticket. Whilst theres always the manual barrier Chiltern RPIs are quite hot in my experience.

 

[87015]

If its a Saturday you'll be valid - as there are no trains on the WCML...

 

[dan_atki]

DLA365 - it will be accepted. If in doubt ask the TM. I'd be shocked if they turned you away.

Despite the fact the Routeing Guide is very out of date, it is of understanding the TISs in stations (through RJIS) and online systems have up to date versions in them.

At a check on NXEC and putting in Marylebone-Holyhead ALL results came up 'London Underground London Marylebone to London Euston'. If it is a valid route then it is not in the routeing guide. But wait the routeing guide lists all the valid routes - contradiction hence the WSMR is NOT a valid route - if you want to try to dispute that then I suggest you go through ATOCs dispute of routeings process.

 

[John @ home]

Here's an interesting work-round, for use on or after 7 September 2008.

Buy an Off-Peak Return (formerly Saver Return) from Holyhead to Wembley Stadium. Currently, this costs £79.10 return in contrast to £72.70 for a Holyhead to London Off-Peak Return.

It has been stated on uk.railway that railway industry internal briefings say that break of outward journey will be allowed in general for Off-Peak Returns. For the purposes of this work-round, let's assume that this is true. (HINT: a link to the briefings would be helpful!)

Travel from Holyhead to London via Rugby. (DLA365 said he wanted to use WSMR on the return leg.) When returning, go to Marylebone, get on a WSMR train and resume your outward journey to Wembley Stadium. This is OK because Holyhead uses Shotton routeing point, one of the valid routeing points for Wembley Stadium is London Group, and via Rugby is a valid route for Shotton - London Group.

Pass through Wembley Stadium (hopefully, at speed!) and immediately start your return journey. See Note at end.

For your return journey, choose Banbury as a routeing point instead of London Group. This is also valid and the maps allowed are:
BC+GC
or LC+MW
or MW.
Maps BC+GC allow travel from Wembley Stadium to Holyhead via the WSMR route, but then apparently only via Hope, not via Chester.

I would be inclined to print out the page of Section C of the NRG which shows the valid routes, together with maps BC and GC in case of a challenge on the journey.

John

Note: This raises the question whether it is permitted to pass through your destination on a return ticket without the train stopping. As far as I know, this is not defined. In the absence of a definition, it would be resolved in favour of the passenger.

 

[paul1609]

Map BC only allows travel through Perry Barr or Smethwick Stations so WSMR would still be an invalid route!

 

[DLA365]

If its a Saturday you'll be valid - as there are no trains on the WCML...

Cheers for all the posts

I would like to know if it is indeed true that if I travel on a Saturday, the routeing from Marylebone via WSMR is valid because there are no trains on the WCML? Because most passengers certainly would not want to get a replacement bus/coach when there is a viable alternative rail route.

So would an exception be made to the ATOC routeing in case of engineering works?

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

Despite the fact the Routeing Guide is very out of date, it is of understanding the TISs in stations (through RJIS) and online systems have up to date versions in them.

At a check on NXEC and putting in Marylebone-Holyhead ALL results came up 'London Underground London Marylebone to London Euston'. If it is a valid route then it is not in the routeing guide. But wait the routeing guide lists all the valid routes - contradiction hence the WSMR is NOT a valid route - if you want to try to dispute that then I suggest you go through ATOCs dispute of routeings process.

I hardly think asking the guard is bad advice. If the guard says "no" then that's that. If they say yes then that's that. There is no harm in asking!

You can debate the RG for the rest of eternity, but if you ask the TM if they will accept the ticket and they say "yes" then so be it - a victory for common sense! I'd be shocked if they say "no" but if they do, then just go to Euston.

IIRC someone asked the same question (except Dublin route Holyhead - same thing effectively) on wnxx/uk.r and I believe they asked the guard and he/she said "yes". They may have bought the ticket to Kensington Olympia instead of London in the end.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yorkie,
I'm not sure thats such good advice. The ticket clearly isnt valid. To get to the WSMR train he has to pass through the ticket barriers at Marylebone and I doubt they will accept his ticket. Whilst theres always the manual barrier Chiltern RPIs are quite hot in my experience.

If he has asked the TM and he says yes, then that is that.

A chiltern barrier staff member cannot override a WSMR TM, in the same way that FCC or NXEC cannot override GC! However Chiltern are owned by the same company as WSMR so they are certainly not going to go hassling WSMR's customers and causing problems for WSMR, and a friend who works for Chiltern confirms that Chiltern staff are fully supportive of WSMR.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Note: This raises the question whether it is permitted to pass through your destination on a return ticket without the train stopping. As far as I know, this is not defined. In the absence of a definition, it would be resolved in favour of the passenger.

Depending on valid routes, yes you could. You cannot double back on route to a routeing point or pass through the same point twice, you cannot doubleback or pass through the same point twice on route between routing points, but there is nothing against doublebacking at your routeing point or passing through a point which you passed through on a previous phase of your journey (i.e. to the first routeing point, between routeing points, from final routeing point).

....I would like to know if it is indeed true that if I travel on a Saturday, the routeing from Marylebone via WSMR is valid because there are no trains on the WCML? Because most passengers certainly would not want to get a replacement bus/coach when there is a viable alternative rail route.

So would an exception be made to the ATOC routeing in case of engineering works?

Thanks

The routeing guide says

ENGINEERING WORK, DIVERSIONS AND SERVICE DISRUPTION

The Routeing Guide has been produced using the published rail timetable and fares manuals. It therefore takes into account all route variations allowed that have been notified. On occasions due to short notice engineering work and disruption, services may be diverted from their normal routes or customers asked to use alternative routes.

In these circumstances operators will make special provision to allow extra permitted routes. They will advise other operators and retailers of the extra provisions made to convey customers by routes other than those which are normally permitted. This provision will also apply to connecting services which are not directly affected.

Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at. This does not apply to additional stops on the diversionary route, unless specially advised or they are on the permitted route for the journey being made.

Which I would take as meaning it is not valid on WSMR during engineering work, unless Virgin/LM says so.

 

[dan_atki]

I hardly think asking the guard is bad advice. If the guard says "no" then that's that. If they say yes then that's that. There is no harm in asking!

You can debate the RG for the rest of eternity, but if you ask the TM if they will accept the ticket and they say "yes" then so be it - a victory for common sense! I'd be shocked if they say "no" but if they do, then just go to Euston.

I never said that they shouldn't ask the guard - did I? :-?. What I was saying, however, is that based on the documentation in the public domain which apparently is sworn by, the intended route is officially invalid.

Now if a guard/TM says that they will honour the ticket then so be it - that is a different matter. What I say is that based on the routeing guide (alone), the WSMR is an invalid route. Sometimes, yes you get staff who follow every rule (some may call them jobsworths) so I wouldn't go to Marylebone and expect to get on if everything officially says no. If I do then that's nice but if not then I can't argue.

I can understand why it is thought this route should be valid, and indeed maybe it will be included in the next update of the RG, but it would appear that, at present, the WSMR is a valid route only for direct services - i.e. London - Wrexham, where as the routeing guide clearly says something like 'For direct trains, the route is valid for that train only'.

If he has asked the TM and he says yes, then that is that.

A chiltern barrier staff member cannot override a WSMR TM, in the same way that FCC or NXEC cannot override GC! However Chiltern are owned by the same company as WSMR so they are certainly not going to go hassling WSMR's customers and causing problems for WSMR, and a friend who works for Chiltern confirms that Chiltern staff are fully supportive of WSMR.

I'd like to see that in practice.

Passenger: 'This ticket won't work the barriers'
Barrier staff: 'Yes, because it isn't valid here - you have to go to Euston.'
Passenger: 'Can I just ask the TM if they'll accept it?'

Now at this point what happens? Do the barrier staff let them through if, in their opinion, the ticket is invalid? Or do they say no, and to go to Euston where the ticket is valid?

It's all very well saying that the barrier staff can't overrule the TM but how would you get to the TM first?

 

[87015]

Which I would take as meaning it is not valid on WSMR during engineering work, unless Virgin/LM says so.

Which they do :???: Chiltern is a (ie the) valid, advised, route for passengers out of Euston during blockades.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Which they do :???: Chiltern is a (ie the) valid, advised, route for passengers out of Euston during blockades.

Ah, but WSMR is not Chiltern!

So do Virgin say it is 'valid from Marlybone', or do they say 'valid on Chiltern services from Marlybone'?

 

[Ascot]

Just type in Marylebone to Holyhead via Tame Bridge Parkway. If it gives you the option to buy the Saver ticket then you can use it on that particular time. There even kind enough to put all the loop holes in so you don't have to hunt for them. So simple easier than driving a tram.

 

[87015]

Ah, but WSMR is not Chiltern!

So do Virgin say it is 'valid from Marlybone', or do they say 'valid on Chiltern services from Marlybone'?

Havent seen anything TOC specific since WSMR started up personally, but I know WSMR have been honouring WCML tickets on the very many occasions the WCML has fallen apart on weekdays so i'd imagine it would be accepted. Can always take a turbo to banbury and get on WSMR there anyway if barrier says Chiltern only, whats the worse that could happen then, excessed a Banbury-Tame Bridge single?

I don'y even begin to understand the shambles that is our fare system mind..

 

[DLA365]

Shambles it is indeed!

I followed Ascot's suggestion of London Marylebone to Holyhead via Tame Bridge Parkway, and the WSMR route is valid, however it says multiple tickets may be required. When I clicked on the fare details, it indicates a Saver is valid on both WSMR and other options, but the Saver using the WSMR route costs £50.20 (with a 16-25 Railcard), but £47.35 using alternative means.

The thing is I already have a Saver return portion with 'Route Any Permitted' costing £48.00 return (so lower than that WSMR included single). Would the any permitted Saver be valid on the WSMR route?

So confusing!

 

[John @ home]

I already have a Saver return portion with 'Route Any Permitted' costing £48.00 return (so lower than that WSMR included single). Would the any permitted Saver be valid on the WSMR route?

Try it and see. The worst that can happen is that somebody charges you an excess fare because they claim you are travelling off route. This excess fare is the difference between the fare by the route you are using and the fare you have paid. As long as you are travelling between the two stations on your ticket, in this case London Terminals and Holyhead, there is no other penalty.

Take a print-out with you showing the £50.20 fare via WSMR. Produce it if (and only if) you are asked to pay more than £2.20. That should limit the amount you are asked to pay to a maximum of £2.20.

Make sure your print-out is for a Holyhead to London Saver Return, not a London to Holyhead Saver Return, which may be priced differently.

It may well be that no-one asks you to pay anything. Do let us know how you get on.

John

 

[DLA365]

Now I am totally confused! I saw the following fares for the Friday 8th August (I prefer this day since I can then get the 0645 Marylebone to Wrexham service). Both options include a change between WSMR and Arriva Trains Wales, so I am bewildered as to which operator is charging the excess fare.

Option 1 (£50.20)

06:45 London Marylebone to Telford Central (WSMR) arr. 09:50
09:50 Telford Central to Chester (ATW) arr. 11:22
11:35 Chester to Holyhead (ATW) arr. 13:30


Option 2 (£45.60)

06:45 London Marylebone to Shrewsbury (WSMR) arr. 10:10
11:30 Shrewsbury to Holyhead (ATW) arr. 14:30

Also, since the National Rail Journey Planner says this option is available using a saver ticket on a Friday, I assume it is a permitted route?

 

[paul1609]

I cant get the trainline to quote any fares using WSMR to Holyhead. However WSMRs own website says saver tickets are valid on departures from Marylebone 09.15 to 16.00 and after 18.00. if they are restricting their own saver tickets this way i cant see them accepting another operators saver.

I'm becoming very dubious about offering people fares advice. On my way up to Scarborough for the cycle ride last week in the next seat there was a OAP travelling on a railcard discounted advance ticket. The problem was the ticket was for the 14.00 train to Edinburgh and this was the delayed 13.30 train. In the circumstances I thought that the NXEC guard might have offered some flexibility but he was having none of it. He demanded £126 for the standard single. The pensioner then asked if she could get off at the next stop (which was retford) he said that she could but that he was withdrawing the original ticket as invalid so she would then have to buy another ticket.
Lots of crying then ensued along with comments about £126 being weeks of pension. It certainly made the journey very uncomfortable for me.

 

[yorkie]

she could have got off at retford and got a discounted SVR from there, although retford is not the best place to do this, and a SOS isn't much cheaper than a SVS if only going one way.

I would like to establish how she ended up on the wrong train as I have heard that someone was misled into getting the wrong ticket by NXEC platform staff and then chinged, so there may have been some dodgy tactics taking place.

I would like to run a few test scenarios on NXEC but unfortunately it would cost a fortune to do so.

Obviously this would not happen on WSMR as it is their policy to be fair to all their customers.