Value of delay minutes

[The Lad]

Do delay minutes have a standard value or do they vary across the country?

 

[Highlandspring]

They vary by TOC.

 

[The Lad]

Roughly how much a minute or is that commercially sensitive?
TIA

 

[whhistle]

They vary by TOC.

I'm impressed you understood the question!
Surely a minute is the same value - 60 seconds?
The standard "this train is delayed" timing is 3 minutes of non-movement reported to/from Darwin.
The standard "this train is late" announcement is set at 10 minutes for LICC stations (or was).
The standard delay repay is at 30 minutes.

Same across all TOCs.

Or does the OP really mean how much money is awarded when a train is delayed.
If so, you'll never find the answer unless you work in the right department. I;ve heard anywhere from £50 a minute up to £300.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm impressed you understood the question!
Surely a minute is the same value - 60 seconds?
The standard "this train is delayed" timing is 3 minutes of non-movement reported to/from Darwin.
The standard "this train is late" announcement is set at 10 minutes for LICC stations (or was).
The standard delay repay is at 30 minutes.

Same across all TOCs.

Or does the OP really mean how much money is awarded when a train is delayed.
If so, you'll never find the answer unless you work in the right department. I;ve heard anywhere from £50 a minute up to £300.

Delay repay is set at 15 minutes on some commuter TOCs, and at 60 minutes for Eurostar.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Do delay minutes have a standard value or do they vary across the country?

It depends on the TOC, service group and time of day. So a train sitting down in the Thameslink core at the height of the peak will cost more than the Flying Dentonian sitting down at Reddish South.

 

[Dentonian]

It depends on the TOC, service group and time of day. So a train sitting down in the Thameslink core at the height of the peak will cost more than the Flying Dentonian sitting down at Reddish South.

Is that because of the number of passengers or the average wage of each individual affected passenger?

Not that I understand the general figures; £50 per minute for anything over 15 minutes ! Even if you were delayed by 15 minutes only once a year - and I assume it isn't cumulative - that would more than pay for Annual tickets for many commuters.

 

[bb21]

Not that I understand the general figures; £50 per minute for anything over 15 minutes ! Even if you were delayed by 15 minutes only once a year - and I assume it isn't cumulative - that would more than pay for Annual tickets for many commuters.

What do you mean?

 

[bb21]

Do delay minutes have a standard value or do they vary across the country?

If you mean Schedule 8 values, they vary by route, time of day, service group, responsible party, and are recalibrated every single year, but peak services on busier routes would normally cost more for the same delay.

There is no such concept as "per minute" delay, even though plenty of people who work in the industry and should really know better don't understand this simple concept.

 

[Dentonian]

What do you mean?

whhistler quoted "anything from £50 to £300 per minute". £50 x 15 minutes would be £750. The standard Annual ticket for my commute (for instance) is currently priced at £716.

 

[Teddyward]

I presume the 50-300 figure is the cost to the TOC on franchise terms.
I also presume you were looking for the cost to the TOC in passenger refund terms.
E.g.; C2C give 3p per minute between 2-14 minute delays if you have a smart card.

 

[bb21]

whhistler quoted "anything from £50 to £300 per minute". £50 x 15 minutes would be £750. The standard Annual ticket for my commute (for instance) is currently priced at £716.

But that £50-£300 figure has nothing to do with customer compensation.

 

[Dentonian]

I presume the 50-300 figure is the cost to the TOC on franchise terms.
I also presume you were looking for the cost to the TOC in passenger refund terms.
E.g.; C2C give 3p per minute between 2-14 minute delays if you have a smart card.

Sorry, I misunderstood the original question. Mind you, even that sort of refund would mount up on my line as virtually no train runs on time. I think overall my morning train averages 3-4 minutes late arriving in Picc - but was much worse last Autumn. Evening trains are slightly better, but the running time is impossible to keep to, and last week was awful - wrong kind of Sun?? Like buses, running times have got slower and slower in recent years. Unlike buses, it isn't clear to the passenger why this is the case.

 

[Dr Hoo]

This thread has really tied itself in knots by conflating the concepts of Delay Repay (which is related to the fare paid by the passenger for the specific journey in question) and only for delays over a certain threshold at any station where the passenger alights and the Schedule 8 performance regime under the TOC-Network Rail track access agreement that is related to assessed future revenue loss (or gain) across an entire service group depending on whether average lateness is higher or lower than a benchmark figure at a selection of specific monitoring points. (Considerable simplification here. E.g. relating to cancellations.)
The latter arrangements really are not easy to explain to those outside the industry!

 

[northernchris]

Like buses, running times have got slower and slower in recent years. Unlike buses, it isn't clear to the passenger why this is the case.

The railways have become more congested so even a small delay to one service soon escalates. The Piccadilly-Oxford Road corridor is a prime example of this - since my usual train was amended to start from Oxford Road the punctuality has dropped massively as it very rarely departs on time. Passenger numbers have increased, so station dwell times also increase.

 

[Dentonian]

The railways have become more congested so even a small delay to one service soon escalates. The Piccadilly-Oxford Road corridor is a prime example of this - since my usual train was amended to start from Oxford Road the punctuality has dropped massively as it very rarely departs on time. Passenger numbers have increased, so station dwell times also increase.

Again, as with buses, its not just city centre/major Stations. The actual running time from PIC>RDN non stop when I first started using the train was 7 minutes, it now struggles to do it in less than 9 minutes and stopping trains usually take 13-14 rather than the scheduled 11, even if only one or two pax alight at such as Belle Vue.

 

[Wychwood93]

This thread has really tied itself in knots by conflating the concepts of Delay Repay (which is related to the fare paid by the passenger for the specific journey in question) and only for delays over a certain threshold at any station where the passenger alights and the Schedule 8 performance regime under the TOC-Network Rail track access agreement that is related to assessed future revenue loss (or gain) across an entire service group depending on whether average lateness is higher or lower than a benchmark figure at a selection of specific monitoring points. (Considerable simplification here. E.g. relating to cancellations.)
The latter arrangements really are not easy to explain to those outside the industry!

Enough to say that Schedule 8 is a minefield as a result of Delay Attribution being a quagmire of bitching between TOCs and NR. DA itself, if used correctly and not to play games, is a very useful tool - you can, in my case, could, learn a lot. In my experience it is the taxpayer that ends up with the larger share of the overall bill. Bad weather - NR, suicide - NR, TOC on TOC delay - NR (at least it used to be) the list rumbles on - vandalism - NR. If a TOC thought it could attribute a unit failure to rain that was 'too wet' it would have a go.

 

[Taunton]

I;ve heard anywhere from £50 a minute up to £300.

What this really shows is that delays attributable to others, or avoided by the operator, are far more valuable to the finances of an operator than the passengers and their revenue.

Remind me please what is the whole point of a railway service in the first place ...

 

[Dr Hoo]

What this really shows is that delays attributable to others, or avoided by the operator, are far more valuable to the finances of an operator than the passengers and their revenue.

Remind me please what is the whole point of a railway service in the first place ...

Sorry, but what it shows is that poor performance costs the whole railway industry (Network Rail and operators) a huge amount of lost revenue. It is no coincidence that many TOCs are experiencing flagging patronage and revenue whilst performance is well behind historic and targeted levels.

The performance regimes are subject to regular updates in terms of reflecting the latest understanding of demand elasticities, numbers using each station, the mix of passenger types (commuter, leisure, business, etc.) and so forth. They are also adjusted for fare rises.

The reason that some service groups have higher payment rates than others reflects that some have higher usage than others.

Bearing in mind that the regime does not cover costs besides revenue loss - such as Delay Repay, staff overtime, taxis, etc. - any operator is still likely to be 'worse off' as a result of poor performance rather than the compensation being "far more valuable" than the medium term damage to the business from excessive lateness.

It is worth remembering that the regime is 'benchmarked' at 'expected' levels of lateness. If performance is at benchmark level many trains may still be late but no money will change hands.

 

[Wombat]

Enough to say that Schedule 8 is a minefield as a result of Delay Attribution being a quagmire of bitching between TOCs and NR

I was wondering about this the other day, after lodging my latest delay repay claims. Presumably the TOCs and NR stand to lose a large amount of money if aggregated delay attributions are not in their favour. Do they employ people specifically to argue the toss on these matters?

 

[w1bbl3]

Do they employ people specifically to argue the toss on these matters?

The TOC's, Network Rail and the Train Manufacturer and Maintainer for stock covered by a train services agreement will all employ delay attribution staff.

 

[mattdickinson]

The TOC's, Network Rail and the Train Manufacturer and Maintainer for stock covered by a train services agreement will all employ delay attribution staff.

My favourite is a pythonesque debate about peacock sizes.

http://www.delayattributionboard.co.uk/documents/guidancenotes/DAB-16 LSER-NR Bird Strike Final.pdf

 

[ChiefPlanner]

My favourite is a pythonesque debate about peacock sizes.

http://www.delayattributionboard.co.uk/documents/guidancenotes/DAB-16 LSER-NR Bird Strike Final.pdf

Quite superb ...(but ridiculous that highly paid staff and "consultants" are asked to opine on such matters - there were in my day debates on "large birds" which had tripped out the overheads at Tring. Most people try very hard to get things sorted (or did in my day) away from the legal "Star Chamber" of the DAB.

I recall one monthly performance meeting where we had lost signalling on the DC lines north of Harrow towards Watford , - which was handled quite well to be fair by Railtrack (thanks to some old school operators who put in temporary block working for about 12 hours in quite nasty weather , handling 2 trains per hour vice 3 + ECS moves) - we reviewed it of course , and exhibit "A" was a plastic bag which was produced at the meeting with a very charred large rat which had juiced inside a relay cabinet. No one was very keen on handling Roland. I of course thanked them for their efforts - there were school exams on and a lot of stress on the daily commuting kids to the Watford Grammar schools.

 

[jon0844]

I read the original post as the cost for every minute of delay that the industry attributes to someone. On GTR it's spoken of as being around £200 per minute (slightly under, but close enough for sake of argument).

I am sure there are many variables and adjustments, and variations between TOCs etc. It's also worth remembering that something similar existed under British Rail (as you might expect, just as any business will have various cost centres to attribute costs to) so when people hear about delay attribution and argue for nationalisation to get rid of this, I believe they're somewhat mistaken.

 

[Spartacus]

My favourite is a pythonesque debate about peacock sizes.

http://www.delayattributionboard.co.uk/documents/guidancenotes/DAB-16 LSER-NR Bird Strike Final.pdf

That's clarified now, thank heavens, if it's a strike at the train/electric interface it's a Network Rail delay. Same would also be true as the bird's heavier than a pheasant, although I think it's a pretty poor choice of bird for being the cut off point. Yes, people know what a pheasant looks like, especially a male, but according the the RSPB an adult bird can weigh anything between 750g and 1700g!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I read the original post as the cost for every minute of delay that the industry attributes to someone. On GTR it's spoken of as being around £200 per minute (slightly under, but close enough for sake of argument).

I am sure there are many variables and adjustments, and variations between TOCs etc. It's also worth remembering that something similar existed under British Rail (as you might expect, just as any business will have various cost centres to attribute costs to) so when people hear about delay attribution and argue for nationalisation to get rid of this, I believe they're somewhat mistaken.

BR called them "impact delay minutes" - no money changed hands , they were there to incentivise functions to perform better to targets etc ....(resisted of course , but made people think)

The "Star" model came in with the 1994 act , - shadow running to begin with (hence the term "wooden dollars" ....reality later on ..

 

[Dr Hoo]

Quite superb ...(but ridiculous that highly paid staff and "consultants" are asked to opine on such matters - there were in my day debates on "large birds" which had tripped out the overheads at Tring. Most people try very hard to get things sorted (or did in my day) away from the legal "Star Chamber" of the DAB.

I recall one monthly performance meeting where we had lost signalling on the DC lines north of Harrow towards Watford , - which was handled quite well to be fair by Railtrack (thanks to some old school operators who put in temporary block working for about 12 hours in quite nasty weather , handling 2 trains per hour vice 3 + ECS moves) - we reviewed it of course , and exhibit "A" was a plastic bag which was produced at the meeting with a very charred large rat which had juiced inside a relay cabinet. No one was very keen on handling Roland. I of course thanked them for their efforts - there were school exams on and a lot of stress on the daily commuting kids to the Watford Grammar schools.

Whilst I am always in admiration of ChiefPlanner's efforts to provide a good service throughout his illustrious railway career I must push back a bit on the "highly paid staff and consultants" aspect.

In my experience (which included attending the DAB quite often) it was composed of a representative group ordinary working performance management staff from TOCs, FOCs and Network Rail who met occasionally to contibute their expertise to process improvement.

Bearing in mind that BR invented delay attribution and the guide over 25 years ago it does not strike me as excessive that once in that period a group of experienced peers spent some time at a routine meeting to ensure consistency and clarity in the 'large bird' area.

If only all of the questions facing the industry could be sorted out with so little fuss.

 

[cf111]

Quite superb ...(but ridiculous that highly paid staff and "consultants" are asked to opine on such matters - there were in my day debates on "large birds" which had tripped out the overheads at Tring. Most people try very hard to get things sorted (or did in my day) away from the legal "Star Chamber" of the DAB.

I recall one monthly performance meeting where we had lost signalling on the DC lines north of Harrow towards Watford , - which was handled quite well to be fair by Railtrack (thanks to some old school operators who put in temporary block working for about 12 hours in quite nasty weather , handling 2 trains per hour vice 3 + ECS moves) - we reviewed it of course , and exhibit "A" was a plastic bag which was produced at the meeting with a very charred large rat which had juiced inside a relay cabinet. No one was very keen on handling Roland. I of course thanked them for their efforts - there were school exams on and a lot of stress on the daily commuting kids to the Watford Grammar schools.

When are you releasing your memoirs?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When are you releasing your memoirs?

Thank you , flattered ...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Whilst I am always in admiration of ChiefPlanner's efforts to provide a good service throughout his illustrious railway career I must push back a bit on the "highly paid staff and consultants" aspect.

In my experience (which included attending the DAB quite often) it was composed of a representative group ordinary working performance management staff from TOCs, FOCs and Network Rail who met occasionally to contibute their expertise to process improvement.

Bearing in mind that BR invented delay attribution and the guide over 25 years ago it does not strike me as excessive that once in that period a group of experienced peers spent some time at a routine meeting to ensure consistency and clarity in the 'large bird' area.

If only all of the questions facing the industry could be sorted out with so little fuss.

Yes - overall fair comment , though I hope the charges raised by senior Law Consultants in the DAB were "moderate" ..I think the more intellectual TOC members (some of whom I know quite well) , actually enjoyed the cranial challenges of setting almost "case law"...gave them a change from the "run of the mill" grind of work. Unpaid of course.

Impressed really as to how all this came together , and yes - a thinking , doing , sort of strategy "manager" ...these things were and are important.

Left to me , could never have come up with this regulatory stuff....(but can sort of understand it)

Anyway- nothing beats clipping a set of points to keep the job going , or assessing a bridge bash , let alone acting as a qualified emergency guard ...when allowed and certified.