Varamis Rail Given Operators Licence from ORR

[Adrian1980uk]

The USA logistics model and UK logistics are completely different. Apart from.the name on the side they have pretty much nothing in common.

I slightly disagree, if you take the UK as a state then I suspect you'll see similarities with one of the states in the US but that's the difference, the US has another level of logistics where the UK doesn't.

 

[A0]

I slightly disagree, if you take the UK as a state then I suspect you'll see similarities with one of the states in the US but that's the difference, the US has another level of logistics where the UK doesn't.

Where it is different is you don't have the same level of 'in state' production or handling that you do with the UK.

Somewhere like Delaware won't have the producers etc, their goods will be shipped in from other states.

Its the size of the country which has driven the US approach to logistics, but it's nothing like the UK approach.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think we need to remind ourselves of the 3 types of traffic here for supply chain distribution.

Good post…

1. Manufacturer to main distribution warehouse. This can be within the UK or via the ports into the UK. Rail freight should have a major role to play in this, in fact all but the smallest of goods should be more suited to Rail.

Indeed and rail does play a big role. If you drink wine, or certain types of French bottled water (or Highland spring for that matter!), or buy a widescreen tv, there’s a better than even chance it has been on a train from port or factory to Distribution Centre.

2. Inter warehouse distribution, stocking up regional warehouses. Rail could have a role to play here - this is basically with Amazon example what we're talking about here but also looking at not only your DHL/DPD parcel traffic but the pallet line single pallet type distribution. It feels like rail has a role to play but the challenge is can it be flexible enough, Varamis are trying to prove it can and also can it be reliable enough, engineering works cannot suddenly stop the service for a night for example as these parcel companies are working on next day delivery.

It depends on the type of logistics operation. Bulk flows - eg Ambient products from a central DC to a group of stores far enough away, with a Day A for Day C delivery are good for rail. This is what Tescos do. Overnight next day guaranteed parcels only works for long distances with big flows and (crucially) needs both ends very adjacent to a DC. Hence Royal Mail’s postal trains from Willesden - Warrington - Sheildmuir. Without nearby DCs or long distances, rail cannot compete with road, even for larger flows.

3. Final mile type - to the door - rail has no role here, it's clearly white van man territory.

White van person, please

The USA logistics model and UK logistics are completely different. Apart from.the name on the side they have pretty much nothing in common.

Actually, not so. AIUI, Amazon’s U.K. logistics model was set up by U.K. based logistics specialists who used best practice at the time - the U.K. is (believe it or not) world renowned for having the most efficient retail logistics operation on the planet. When Amazon HQ saw the outputs in terms of delivery costs per unit, they invited the U.K. team over to the States to show them how they did it. The same model was then rolled out across Europe, and also in the US. The actual method of transport varies in the US - much more flying - but the network, DC layout, picking systems etc are based on the U.K. model.

(I’ve been told this by someone who knows UK logistics inside out, so have no reason to disbelieve it, however I’ve never seen any hard evidence that some people on these pages like to see. I’m not so sure that Amazon would like to advertise their logistics operations anyway).

 

[John R]

Maybe this tweet from a couple of days ago hints that volumes might be increasing?

https://twitter.com/RailVaramis/status/1688302141952110592

Last remaining space available this week on our train, around 30 standard pallet/cages worth. Get in touch if you've got some small volume that you want delivered between #Birmingham & #Glasgow in 4hrs. We've got volume in both directions!!

 

[The Planner]

Maybe this tweet from a couple of days ago hints that volumes might be increasing?

https://twitter.com/RailVaramis/status/1688302141952110592

Last remaining space available this week on our train, around 30 standard pallet/cages worth. Get in touch if you've got some small volume that you want delivered between #Birmingham & #Glasgow in 4hrs. We've got volume in both directions!!

Depends how big a cage is? Can you get more than 30 in a carriage, whereupon they are in a high percentage volume or if its only 10-20 then it doesnt look very good, I don't know.

 

[John R]

Depends how big a cage is? Can you get more than 30 in a carriage, whereupon they are in a high percentage volume or if its only 10-20 then it doesnt look very good, I don't know.

Agree, although the tweet was posted Sun night, and so it could have been describing availability across all of this week (and of course in both directions). Which Mon to Fri amounts to 40 carriages.

 

[zwk500]

Depends how big a cage is? Can you get more than 30 in a carriage, whereupon they are in a high percentage volume or if its only 10-20 then it doesnt look very good, I don't know.

This tweet: https://twitter.com/RailVaramis/status/1689263448536846336?s=20 shows the cages can fit 3 across the width of a 319/769 with a bit of room to spare. They look fairly square, so about 1x1m, by the looks of things. Maybe 50-60 in a carriage (15-20 along the 23m length x 3 wide)

[Link to tweet from Varamis showing photo of 3 cages in the end of a Class 319 or 769 unit]

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Varamis give the figures further down, 42 per carriage, 168 per a train

 

[zwk500]

Varamis give the figures further down, 42 per carriage, 168 per a train

(In response to a tweet that asked the question very soon after I posted).

 

[Adrian1980uk]

(In response to a tweet that asked the question very soon after I posted).

Didn't look at the timing tbh, it was more information on here.

 

[jagardner1984]

I have to say I think it’s really positive it seems to be getting into a pattern. It’s never going to solve all the world’s road freight problems, but 168 cages is a chunk of truck space, and I hope they continue to develop and grow. Is there further rolling stock that could be used in the future ?

 

[zwk500]

I have to say I think it’s really positive it seems to be getting into a pattern. It’s never going to solve all the world’s road freight problems, but 168 cages is a chunk of truck space, and I hope they continue to develop and grow. Is there further rolling stock that could be used in the future ?

There are 769s in store after GWR handed them back, and some 319s still in service for the time being. How many of those are suitable for the same treatment I don't know. How does 168 cages in 92m of train compare to a HGV?

 

[Bald Rick]

There are 769s in store after GWR handed them back, and some 319s still in service for the time being. How many of those are suitable for the same treatment I don't know. How does 168 cages in 92m of train compare to a HGV?

You’ll get about 40 on a standard HGV trailer (40 ft long), 45 or so on the new longer permitted trailers.

 

[zwk500]

You’ll get about 40 on a standard HGV trailer (40 ft long), 45 or so on the new longer permitted trailers.

40 on a 40' trailer vs 48 on a 70' carriage. Not killing it on efficiency, although of course 1 driver for 168 cages vs 4 drivers for 160 cages would help, if they're all going to the same place...

 

[fgwrich]

There are 769s in store after GWR handed them back, and some 319s still in service for the time being. How many of those are suitable for the same treatment I don't know. How does 168 cages in 92m of train compare to a HGV?

769 has sort of been done before, though like a lot of projects ROG touches they seem to have gone suspiciously quiet on and both the converted and remaining units are all in storage - including some gutted 319s at Eastleigh.

 

[jagardner1984]

In the original press release it talks about 5 321s being converted - as far as I can tell they are just using a single unit 321334 - did the other 4 ever happen ? What happens when some heavy maintenance is needed ?

To increase the driver / roll cage efficiency - theoretically could a middle car from another unit be adapted to make the formation 5 car ?

Also I was interested - as the train does not have end connecting doors - does the driver need a secondary exit through the cab door ? Since the cage layout shown in the photo is wall to wall at the end of a carriage - but I suppose as 735x890mm is the base of a standard roll cage, at 3 wide on a 20m vehicle, there is some room for manoeuvre somewhere within each carriage beyond the two loading door bays.

 

[The exile]

40 on a 40' trailer vs 48 on a 70' carriage. Not killing it on efficiency, although of course 1 driver for 168 cages vs 4 drivers for 160 cages would help, if they're all going to the same place...

Although if you consider units per length to be a measure of efficiency (not sure it is unless within the same mode of transport) you would need to add the tractor unit to each HGV - it’s got to be there - whereas that’s already included in the train length.

 

[zwk500]

Although if you consider units per length to be a measure of efficiency (not sure it is unless within the same mode of transport) you would need to add the tractor unit to each HGV - it’s got to be there - whereas that’s already included in the train length.

Probably the best measure of efficiency is pence/tonne-km. But that requires access to data like drivers salaries and track access fees.

 

[172007]

In the original press release it talks about 5 321s being converted - as far as I can tell they are just using a single unit 321334 - did the other 4 ever happen ? What happens when some heavy maintenance is needed ?

To increase the driver / roll cage efficiency - theoretically could a middle car from another unit be adapted to make the formation 5 car ?

Also I was interested - as the train does not have end connecting doors - does the driver need a secondary exit through the cab door ? Since the cage layout shown in the photo is wall to wall at the end of a carriage - but I suppose as 735x890mm is the base of a standard roll cage, at 3 wide on a 20m vehicle, there is some room for manoeuvre somewhere within each carriage beyond the two loading door bays.

There are videos and pictures of the Vermais service running as a double set.

Last night broke the record according to the BHI X account with a journey time of 3hrs 39m not far off the perfect average speed end to end of 79mph.

 

[The Planner]

Last night broke the record according to the BHI X account with a journey time of 3hrs 39m not far off the perfect average speed end to end of 79mph.

Leaving 4 minutes early at 1730 and arriving Birmingham International at 2158 doesn't make 3 hrs 39, not does the return leaving 0007 and arriving Mossend at 0403?

 

[jagardner1984]

Isn’t there an argument, to encourage these kind of micro operations, and given the absolutely marginal cost to NR - of tiering track access charges by demand ? Ie you want to run a small light EMU service across the Pennines at 2am, that would be charged rather differently to wanting to run the same train into a Euston platform at 0830 ? Or perhaps this happens already, can anyone clarify ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Isn’t there an argument, to encourage these kind of micro operations, and given the absolutely marginal cost to NR - of tiering track access charges by demand ? Ie you want to run a small light EMU service across the Pennines at 2am, that would be charged rather differently to wanting to run the same train into a Euston platform at 0830 ? Or perhaps this happens already, can anyone clarify ?

Possibly but at the same time those marginal late night services also restrict engineering access so it is a tough balance.

Any routes like this, running in the early hours, need setting up in a way that gives them some flexibility around engineering work.

 

[andythebrave]

Leaving 4 minutes early at 1730 and arriving Birmingham International at 2158 doesn't make 3 hrs 39, not does the return leaving 0007 and arriving Mossend at 0403?

I can see that Tuesday night's northbound may be the candidate https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12943/2023-08-08/detailed

 

[172007]

I can see that Tuesday night's northbound may be the candidate https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12943/2023-08-08/detailed

Thunk it's that one. The X posted by @VermamisBHI message seemed to point to that one tbh.

 

[The Planner]

I can see that Tuesday night's northbound may be the candidate https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12943/2023-08-08/detailed

Two things to note then, whatever was meant to be in front of it clearly wasn't, they can't claim that as normality. Though if I were Varamis I would be querying some of the SRTs as they look inflated in places. It made up 8 minutes between Warrington to Preston with only 3½ minutes of other allowances.

 

[zwk500]

Two things to note then, whatever was meant to be in front of it clearly wasn't, they can't claim that as normality. Though if I were Varamis I would be querying some of the SRTs as they look inflated in places. It made up 8 minutes between Warrington to Preston with only 3½ minutes of other allowances.

Looks like it's pathed to follow a Chirk-Carlisle from Stafford to Acton Bridge: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H09489/2023-08-08/detailed which used an alternate Q/Y path running later.

I also note the Varamis path was given various Fast lines and main roads instead of looping off (No report Searchlight lane, Walton Old Jn, platform change to 3 Preston/no report Fylde Jn), so about 3-5 minutes of that section could easily be adjustment values or SL SRTs that weren't used.

 

[jagardner1984]

Obviously it’s great they are doing well - but are many of their customers booking a roll cage arriving in deepest Mossend at 4am on the basis of speed ? Surely “around 4 hours” already significantly beats an HGV in very off peak timings, let alone when any traffic is met.

 

[zwk500]

Obviously it’s great they are doing well - but are many of their customers booking a roll cage arriving in deepest Mossend at 4am on the basis of speed ? Surely “around 4 hours” already significantly beats an HGV in very off peak timings, let alone when any traffic is met.

It's a bit of prestige which helps with the marketing, and the name. A bit like 1E01 Edinburgh-London calling only Newcastle running in under 4hrs - the only train to do so in either direction. But they can put 'from less than 4 hours' on the website.

 

[Bartsimho]

Possibly but at the same time those marginal late night services also restrict engineering access so it is a tough balance.

Any routes like this, running in the early hours, need setting up in a way that gives them some flexibility around engineering work.

I mean they could have it on a week by week rolling contract with planned engineering being negotiated at least 6 months in advance and emergency engineering clauses which have detailed triggers which gives a refund to them.

 

[John R]

Obviously it’s great they are doing well - but are many of their customers booking a roll cage arriving in deepest Mossend at 4am on the basis of speed ? Surely “around 4 hours” already significantly beats an HGV in very off peak timings, let alone when any traffic is met.

Though just like a lot of passenger comparisons, you probably have to consider the end to end journey time, as not many customers will be based at Mossend.

By advertising a short journey time for the rail element, it could help persuade customers that the overall journey time will be comparable, despite the additional handling. Of course you still have the lack of flexibility - you have to fit in with the one journey a day (at least atm) and if you arrive too late you could have a big problem (especially if there is no room on the following nights’ service).