Vending Machines on Trains

[Jozhua]

Hey all, this is probably a really dumb idea, but with catering disappearing on increasingly long journeys, what is the practicality of introducing vending machines onto trains?

If you're a bit dehydrated or sugar low, being able to get a drink/snack is an absolute saviour, especially if you need to catch a specific train and can't stop somewhere for an hour to grab a bite to eat/drink.

Catering trolleys seem to be one school of thought, but these often block the gangways making egress difficult at stations...I almost was unable to get off at Chesterfield one time (I literally jammed my suitcase in the door as it was closing) due to a drinks cart in the way. Another time I was moving down the train due to a short platform and the drinks cart blocked me and other passengers, almost missing our stop as well! Plus catering trolleys require another member of staff, or multiple members of staff if the train requires multiple-multiple units... (e.g. GWR 800's, TPE 185's, XC Voyagers)

Just seems like a sensible idea to provide catering where it is difficult or a marginal gain to do so. Could take up a relatively small amount of space in a single carriage, while providing a service to the whole train.

Has any other country/railway toyed with this concept?

 

[pinkmarie80]

I would have to disagree with you given that would put my best friend and her colleagues out of a job.

 

[yorkie]

It's not a bad idea for a very limited set of circumstances in my opinion, but definitely should not replace a staffed service on InterCity trains. I don't think it would be suitable on suburban trains.

I've seen it on some trains abroad, for example on some trains in Norway (which may have only been applicable to Comfort Class, which includes complimentary drinks, if I recall correctly) and possibly elsewhere, but I can't remember now.

 

[Gloster]

I have also seen them abroad, but there often seems to be a problem with reliability: the frequent jerking as the train starts, stops, goes over points, etc., means that they soon become temperamental. They start off fine, but more and more often they have to be put out of use and it can reach a point where regular passengers come prepared with their own supplies. (I must admit to not being fully up-to-date with the latest designs.)

As far as trolleys blocking the aisle is concerned, I would suspect that it is a mixture of poor staff training and high turnover of staff. You also have the fact that the staff’s main purpose is to sell as many consumables as possible: they are divorced from their customer’s main purpose, which is to get from A to B. Most members of staff probably make a reasonable attempt to not be an inconvenience passengers, but not all.

(I could mention a ferry company which at one period had a habit of cancelling ferries and then recommending that you take advantage of, i.e. spend money in, their cafe while you wait. Not me: I headed off to another outlet.)

 

[Jozhua]

I would have to disagree with you given that would put my best friend and her colleagues out of a job.

I think unfortunately catering is becoming increasingly uncommon on trains. A lot of fairly long distance operators have done away with it, or never had it to begin with. I guess "express regional" would probably be the category I'd say catering is pretty uncommon as of right now, so that's EMR Liverpool/Norwich, TPE, Northern Connect, TFW, for some examples I am familiar with.

It's not a bad idea for a very limited set of circumstances in my opinion, but definitely should not replace a staffed service on InterCity trains. I don't think it would be suitable on suburban trains.

I've seen it on some trains abroad, for example on some trains in Norway (which may have only been applicable to Comfort Class, which includes complimentary drinks, if I recall correctly) and possibly elsewhere, but I can't remember now.

Yeah, I think it definately falls into the "express regional" category in terms of most suitability.

I have also seen them abroad, but there often seems to be a problem with reliability: the frequent jerking as the train starts, stops, goes over points, etc., means that they soon become temperamental. They start off fine, but more and more often they have to be put out of use and it can reach a point where regular passengers come prepared with their own supplies. (I must admit to not being fully up-to-date with the latest designs.)

As far as trolleys blocking the aisle is concerned, I would suspect that it is a mixture of poor staff training and high turnover of staff. You also have the fact that the staff’s main purpose is to sell as many consumables as possible: they are divorced from their customer’s main purpose, which is to get from A to B. Most members of staff probably make a reasonable attempt to not be an inconvenience passengers, but not all.

(I could mention a ferry company which at one period had a habit of cancelling ferries and then recommending that you take advantage of, i.e. spend money in, their cafe while you wait. Not me: I headed off to another outlet.)

Interesting! Do you rememeber where you saw them?

I think you would have to design something with the intention of being able to withstand being bumped around, I don't think an off the shelf vending machine would be perticularly suitable.

Ultimately trollies are more suitable for airlines where everyone is getting on/off at the same stop, not trains which stop fairly frequently! Additionally, a service can be planned around the length/time of day of passenger's journeys. I think it's much better to have a little bar/shop counter that people can visit when they like, or to have a system where people can order to their seat if of limited mobility, etc. I've found the onboard catering much more convenient during covid where they often just stay in one area on the train and you go if/when you'd like to buy anything.

 

[Gloster]

Interesting! Do you rememeber where you saw them?

The Danish IR4 EMU had them, while the IC3 DMU had a simple coin-operated coffee machine (as with Henry Ford, you had the choice of black or nothing). Some of the regional traffic authorities in Sweden required them in their Y1 railcars, although this is twenty-five or more years ago, so the design of the machines has probably moved on.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was a BR trial back in the 1960's - not a success apparently due to shake , rattle and roll.

 

[MarkyT]

There was a BR trial back in the 1960's - not a success apparently due to shake , rattle and roll.

I imagine standard machines designed for terra firma would be a challenge. Making such devices card only might help, eliminating any trouble from mechanical coin mechanisms and note readers and the security issues in storing and retrieving the cash. Cashless would not really have been possible in the past, but it's plausible today.

 

[Tio Terry]

I was involved in some trials in the 1970's of on board vending machines.There were problems with reliability because of the movements of the train and with spilling hot fluids for the same reason. Thats over 40 years ago now and I'm sure that those problems, and the ones associated with paying by cash, can be overcome. The principle is a good one, it needs a bit more work but I'm confident it could be done.

 

[MarkyT]

I was involved in some trials in the 1970's of on board vending machines.There were problems with reliability because of the movements of the train and with spilling hot fluids for the same reason. Thats over 40 years ago now and I'm sure that those problems, and the ones associated with paying by cash, can be overcome. The principle is a good one, it needs a bit more work but I'm confident it could be done.

The other possible solution for hot drinks on trains that are busy enough to justify some catering staff onboard is online ordering with delivery to your seat from a central kitchen. I think some long-distance UK TOCs have tried this recently and I've seen the concept featured in some continental travel videos. An extension of that might be an autonomous robot that could scoot along the train (crowds permitting) delivering orders to passengers' seats. Perhaps the contraption could run along a rail suspended from the ceiling to pass over standees' heads, then winch the order down to table level at the appropriate location. I'll get my coat!

 

[75A]

It would provide a good plaything for the low lifes to destroy.

 

[Jozhua]

The Danish IR4 EMU had them, while the IC3 DMU had a simple coin-operated coffee machine (as with Henry Ford, you had the choice of black or nothing). Some of the regional traffic authorities in Sweden required them in their Y1 railcars, although this is twenty-five or more years ago, so the design of the machines has probably moved on.

That would make sense, those 2/3 car DMU trips that still serve longer distance journeys are the sort of ones where vending machines make a lot of sense.

There was a BR trial back in the 1960's - not a success apparently due to shake , rattle and roll.

I think there's been enough time between then and now to try again!

I was involved in some trials in the 1970's of on board vending machines.There were problems with reliability because of the movements of the train and with spilling hot fluids for the same reason. Thats over 40 years ago now and I'm sure that those problems, and the ones associated with paying by cash, can be overcome. The principle is a good one, it needs a bit more work but I'm confident it could be done.

I don't think hot drinks are the best idea to be honest! I was more thinking bottles of water, juice or soft drink along with crisps and other long shelf life snacks. I do think those issues with hot drink dispensing could likely be overcome though.

The other possible solution for hot drinks on trains that are busy enough to justify some catering staff onboard is online ordering with delivery to your seat from a central kitchen. I think some long-distance UK TOCs have tried this recently and I've seen the concept featured in some continental travel videos. An extension of that might be an autonomous robot that could scoot along the train (crowds permitting) delivering orders to passengers' seats. Perhaps the contraption could run along a rail suspended from the ceiling to pass over standees' heads, then winch the order down to table level at the appropriate location. I'll get my coat!

Build an O gauge model railway inside the train to deliver food/drink!

 

[RHolmes]

The issue with vending machines is that they’re seen as ‘unhealthy’ often stocking foods that are high in sugar, salt and carbohydrates. (Not that most onboard shops/trollies are much different)

I wouldn’t think that this would be the image that the Government and DfT would be keen to promote under the new Great British Railways umbrella having removed them from schools etc

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Vending machines would at least not travel down the train at breakneck speed so that by the time you react to them they're at the other end of the carriage... which seems to be the method employed by TPE stewards.

 

[hexagon789]

A small number of the French regions AMC Bi-modes have them, they were an optional extra. Though I've no idea if they are still used, how well used or well stocked they were/are.

For a route otherwise without catering I think they could offer a reasonable and more cost-effective means of providing catering but maintaining and supplying said machines would be an issue that would need something careful planning.

I suppose offering one of the main providers of vending machines on stations as a sort of concession might be the easiest way of setting it up.

I agree that I wouldn't want them to replace on-train staffed catering such as a trolley or buffet/café-bar except if it was the only way of retaining any form of catering service on a long journey with few or limited opportunities to procure refreshments before or during the journey.

They'd be pretty pointless on a city-to-city shuttle service where the journey time is about an hour (so you could argue many people can manage without any catering anyway) and both terminals have plenty of eating outlets/shops where travellers can easily obtain something before their journey.

 

[Nova1]

Vending machines would at least not travel down the train at breakneck speed so that by the time you react to them they're at the other end of the carriage... which seems to be the method employed by TPE stewards.

this has happened to me on lots of XC services before, the steward has served someone behind me and I've looked them dead in the eye wanting a drink and instead they hurtle as fast as possible to the next carriage

 

[61653 HTAFC]

this has happened to me on lots of XC services before, the steward has served someone behind me and I've looked them dead in the eye wanting a drink and instead they hurtle as fast as possible to the next carriage

The frustrating thing about this is that it will reduce takings, which will then be used as a reason to reduce or remove catering offerings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The frustrating thing about this is that it will reduce takings, which will then be used as a reason to reduce or remove catering offerings.

Do they not receive commission? If they do (as I believe they do), it's odd that they would do this.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I think that now the trolley service on Southeastern long distance has gone that a vending machine would be a great thing on the 375s, the journeys are long enough to require refreshments and there is a staff presence to help prevent vandals, I would not put vending machine on the Networkers because the locals in some areas would likely eat the machine and sell the chocolate.

 

[Jozhua]

A small number of the French regions AMC Bi-modes have them, they were an optional extra. Though I've no idea if they are still used, how well used or well stocked they were/are.

For a route otherwise without catering I think they could offer a reasonable and more cost-effective means of providing catering but maintaining and supplying said machines would be an issue that would need something careful planning.

I suppose offering one of the main providers of vending machines on stations as a sort of concession might be the easiest way of setting it up.

I agree that I wouldn't want them to replace on-train staffed catering such as a trolley or buffet/café-bar except if it was the only way of retaining any form of catering service on a long journey with few or limited opportunities to procure refreshments before or during the journey.

They'd be pretty pointless on a city-to-city shuttle service where the journey time is about an hour (so you could argue many people can manage without any catering anyway) and both terminals have plenty of eating outlets/shops where travellers can easily obtain something before their journey.

I think it would be pretty easy to restock if this was just done at the end of a route, where a couple of cleaning staff usually pop on anyway.

The issue with vending machines is that they’re seen as ‘unhealthy’ often stocking foods that are high in sugar, salt and carbohydrates. (Not that most onboard shops/trollies are much different)

I wouldn’t think that this would be the image that the Government and DfT would be keen to promote under the new Great British Railways umbrella having removed them from schools etc

Ultimately, it's what is perishable or not. Unfortunately a lot of fresh food is, which is why you tend not to see it on catering trollies/onboard shops. Still useful if you are sugar low or dehydrated though.

 

[guilbert]

The SNCF overnight couchette trains used to have them. The contents were generally pretty unappealing (packets of Haribo were about the highlight) - I once had a "coffee" out of one, not great but it was hot and had caffine in. They might be useful on some of the longer regional services although space might be an issue on a 2-3 car DMU.

 

[75A]

I think that now the trolley service on Southeastern long distance has gone that a vending machine would be a great thing on the 375s, the journeys are long enough to require refreshments and there is a staff presence to help prevent vandals, I would not put vending machine on the Networkers because the locals in some areas would likely eat the machine and sell the chocolate.

My point exactly.

 

[stj]

Got them in Italy on Italo Trains.Also I find plenty of vending machines on smaller stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that now the trolley service on Southeastern long distance has gone that a vending machine would be a great thing on the 375s, the journeys are long enough to require refreshments and there is a staff presence to help prevent vandals, I would not put vending machine on the Networkers because the locals in some areas would likely eat the machine and sell the chocolate.

The thing about the sort of refreshments you can put in a vending machine is that you can take them with you, so that's what people do, either purchased at the station, or if they know there's no provision there from their local corner shop.

The two things that are worth buying on board are tea/coffee and to some extent refrigerated drinks. I suppose you could put one of those Costa machines on board, but realistically the market is limited and maintenance would be a faff. Easier to buy one before you board or take a flask, and if you're that much of a caffeine addict take a can of Coke too.

Got them in Italy on Italo Trains.Also I find plenty of vending machines on smaller stations.

Easier to maintain them on stations, and then you can buy before you board.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Do they not receive commission? If they do (as I believe they do), it's odd that they would do this.

Whether they're on commission or a flat wage; and whether they're employed by the TOC or subcontracted, working in a manner that reduces your takings is never a smart idea. "Move slowly enough for potential customers to respond" should be something they teach on day one!

 

[hexagon789]

I think it would be pretty easy to restock if this was just done at the end of a route, where a couple of cleaning staff usually pop on anyway.

Well that's kind of what I had in mind but I was more thinking of who would be responsible for stocking it if it remained 'in house', hence why outsourcing seemed the likely way to go.

Easier to maintain them on stations, and then you can buy before you board.

Which is the main reason against them - if they exist at the main stations en route in readily accessible places then what's the point. It's only really worth it where the journey is long and there is no or limited opportunities to buy immediately before boarding such as on a rural route or something.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is the main reason against them - if they exist at the main stations en route in readily accessible places then what's the point. It's only really worth it where the journey is long and there is no or limited opportunities to buy immediately before boarding such as on a rural route or something.

Realistically most people boarding at a rural station for a long journey (e.g. on the Far North Line) will know they need to take something with them. Most English and Welsh rural lines are quite short and so you can always pick something up at the interchange or destination.

Some means of buying decent coffee on the Cambrian line would be useful, that said, it's a "long, thin" route.

 

[hexagon789]

Realistically most people boarding at a rural station for a long journey (e.g. on the Far North Line) will know they need to take something with them. Most English and Welsh rural lines are quite short and so you can always pick something up at the interchange or destination.

Some means of buying decent coffee on the Cambrian line would be useful, that said, it's a "long, thin" route.

One has to wonder why any of the Frejch regions bothered specifying them for their AGC units then

 

[sunnyjohn]

Had them on the long distance three car units here in Spain for some years, where there is insufficient room for a bar. They are efficient, reasonable cost and very successful.

 

[Polarbear]

SOB have vending machines on some of their longer distance units. The Voralpen Express (Lucerne - St Gallen) had them on the older stock as well as the recently introduced units.

How reliable they are, I don't know as I've only occasionally used the route, but given that the concept has moved onto the current fleet, it would suggest that the concept can work.

As someone else has already said, unfortunately, they would become something of a target for the knuckle draggers in the UK.