Virgin East Coast Twitter

[Martin66]

My understanding is that the upgrade offer applied only to Bank holidays in England and therefore the ticket office were incorrect. This ties in with when the reduced menu is on offer.

VTEC were offering a full menu commencing 2nd January and therefore the customer was wrongly advised and the guard was “right”.

If it is the case that the offer only applies on bank holidays in England the website & promotional material should make that clear as many VTEC trains originate from Scotland.

 

[ainsworth74]

as many VTEC trains originate from Scotland.

And many people of course will make journey's on VTEC which are wholly within Scotland such as Aberdeen to Edinburgh!

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Reading the article on the response from Twitter, it might not have been entirely helpful in the second response with the use of the 'pet' or 'love' question, but aside from that it doesn't sound like Virgin did much wrong. The customer says that the train guard said 'you go ahead, honey' in an aggressive tone, but unless someone can confirm that completely I will take it with a pinch of salt and assume she may have interpreted it that way. For all we know the guard could've even said it in a way of encouragement or even in a way where he didn't agree with it but won't stop her from doing so.

The only person we are actually hearing about this from is the customer themselves though, and given the fact this person felt the need to refer to the guard as an 'old male' and immediately jump to the conclusion that it was a form of sexism and belittlement, and given that she is pictured holding a cup of coffee, along with her dress code and use of certain words, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she was one of those fragile middle-class moral busybodies who can't handle a word like 'honey' because of her own personal association with the word. But for now I shall not pass confident judgement, because I don't know this person.

You could argue that Virgin responded poorly to her complaining about it and need to apologise for that, but they do not need to apologise for the "offence caused", because this woman being offended is HER choice, not some forced decision by Virgin and their old sexist male guards. If we can hear the other side of the story and maybe some other accounts of the situation, we can come to a better conclusion, but instead we already have a few people claiming sexism and patronising attitudes towards women. Unless you were there and know what happened, or have heard both sides of the story, it's a one-sided judgement.

I don't like the word 'babe', and I don't particularly enjoy being called it, but I won't stop someone of customer service using it for example because, to them, it may have a different meaning and it may be their way of being friendly. Therefore, I won't really bat much of an eyelid because I don't try and police what people say just because I don't like the word used, instead I just let them say it when it's something as harmless as 'babe' or 'honey' etc. I would only get annoyed if I asked them to stop and they chose to ignore it, but that's it. The point I'm making is we've only heard one side of the story and need the other sides, though I worry we won't get it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the above are all unprofessional then 95% of those employed in customer facing roles in my neck of the woods would be out of a job.

If I catch that type of unprofessional language being used by my staff, I'm compelled by my organization to give them 0 in the quality audit for that case.

The other thing to note is this policy seems to imply the company always has to have the last word. It doesn’t and it shouldn’t.

Between that and the smarta*** tone, it's what gets them into trouble. I'm amazed it's taken as long as it has.

With this case, the Twitter response was clearly offensive. The words themselves are unhelpful, but the sneering time confirms that it was meant offensively.

As others have said, London Midland of 4-5 years ago got the tone right, although they moved towards the sneering smarta*** tone too more recently.

 

[SaveECRewards]

And many people of course will make journey's on VTEC which are wholly within Scotland such as Aberdeen to Edinburgh!

I was told from a guard yesterday that they definitely should be offering weekend first on the 2nd in Scotland but as he doesn't work the Anglo-Scottish routes he wasn't sure whether it was any journey that started in Scotland that was eligible or just ones wholly within the area. If anyone knows anyone who works the Anglo-Scottish routes it would be interesting to see what their Scottish holiday policy is. I remember it used to be on the website in GNER days but I can't remember what it was.

As others have said, London Midland of 4-5 years ago got the tone right, although they moved towards the sneering smarta*** tone too more recently.

It does seem that more and more social media teams seem to be thinking the Virgin model is the one to replicate.

 

[yorkie]

Reading the article on the response from Twitter, it might not have been entirely helpful in the second response with the use of the 'pet' or 'love' question, but aside from that it doesn't sound like Virgin did much wrong. The customer says that the train guard said 'you go ahead, honey' in an aggressive tone, but unless someone can confirm that completely I will take it with a pinch of salt and assume she may have interpreted it that way. For all we know the guard could've even said it in a way of encouragement or even in a way where he didn't agree with it but won't stop her from doing so.

I see no reason why the report wasn't credible. It was backed up by other passengers. It is a predictable by-product of the Virgin Trains way of doing things combined with poor judgement from a small minority of their staff who just don't know how to behave when involved in disputes with customers. I've seen this sort of behaviour myself. If you think it doesn't happen, you need to get out more and you'll see it for yourself.

The only person we are actually hearing about this from is the customer themselves though, and given the fact this person felt the need to refer to the guard as an 'old male' ...

'
1) No; other passengers have also commented on it in the same twitter thread.
2) No she didn't.

and immediately jump to the conclusion that it was a form of sexism and belittlement

It was clearly inappropriate; even a male passenger said so:
https://twitter.com/JoeCannonLondon/status/948153990381961216

He was male. I heard him. And it wasn’t regionally appropriate. She was (legitimately) complaining about something else and his response was highly patronising

and given that she is pictured holding a cup of coffee, along with her dress code and use of certain words, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she was one of those fragile middle-class moral busybodies who can't handle a word like 'honey' because of her own personal association with the word. But for now I shall not pass confident judgement, because I don't know this person.

So you are judging her, and denying it, in the same paragraph. Amazing

You could argue that Virgin responded poorly to her complaining about it

That is a huge understatement.

(You could argue it was a bit windy today!)

and need to apologise for that, but they do not need to apologise for the "offence caused", because this woman being offended is HER choice

Ridiculous.

not some forced decision by Virgin and their old sexist male guards.

She did not use the term "old sexist male guards"; you made that up.

A small number of their guards do act inappropriately, and mistreat customers. I know; I've seen it and I've heard first-hand reports from reliable people, including VTEC staff!

If we can hear the other side of the story and maybe some other accounts of the situation[ we can come to a better conclusion, but instead we already have a few people claiming sexism and patronising attitudes towards women. Unless you were there and know what happened, or have heard both sides of the story, it's a one-sided judgement.

I don't like the word 'babe', and I don't particularly enjoy being called it, but I won't stop someone of customer service using it for example because, to them, it may have a different meaning and it may be their way of being friendly. Therefore, I won't really bat much of an eyelid because I don't try and police what people say just because I don't like the word used, instead I just let them say it when it's something as harmless as 'babe' or 'honey' etc. I would only get annoyed if I asked them to stop and they chose to ignore it, but that's it. The point I'm making is we've only heard one side of the story and need the other sides, though I worry we won't get it.

Did you completely ignore the posts about context? It's not just the language.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I see no reason why the report wasn't credible. It was backed up by other passengers. It is a predictable by-product of the Virgin Trains way of doing things combined with poor judgement from a small minority of their staff who just don't know how to behave when involved in disputes with customers. I've seen this sort of behaviour myself. If you think it doesn't happen, you need to get out more and you'll see it for yourself.
'
1) No; other passengers have also commented on it in the same twitter thread.
2) No she didn't.

It was clearly inappropriate; even a male passenger said so:
https://twitter.com/JoeCannonLondon/status/948153990381961216

These things weren't mentioned in the BBC or Guardian article. All that was spoken of was the girl's side of the story. Also, she did refer to him as an 'old male' guard, you can see it in her tweet that prompted the unprofessional response. Checking again the term used is 'older male'. She still referred to him by sex. But half of any errors here are down to the articles failing to report the other passengers and Tweets.

So you are judging her, and denying it, in the same paragraph. Amazing

I said I wouldn't be surprised if she was one of those people. I didn't outright state that she was. Even if the picture isn't what I thought the jigsaw pieces still fit together (if that makes any sense).

That is a huge understatement.

(You could argue it was a bit windy today!)

I don't think there's a lot to add at this point. Everyone's in agreement that the response was unprofessional.

Ridiculous.

That is a statement, not an argument. Also, it is not ridiculous because being offended is a choice, just like how I could chose to be offended at any member of staff using the term 'babe' but chose not to.

She did not use the term "old sexist male guards"; you made that up.

Yes, I did make that up.

A small number of their guards do act inappropriately, and mistreat customers. I know; I've seen it and I've heard first-hand reports from reliable people, including VTEC staff!

Never at one point did I state otherwise.

Did you completely ignore the posts about context? It's not just the language.

Unless we're reading different posts there seems to be disagreement as to whether the words used were gendered or not, and also in the context in which they can used.

 

[cactustwirly]

Just read this, have to say I'm glad I don't have to travel with VTEC!
My local TOCs EMT & GWR, do seem a little bit more professional

 

[Ginaro]

If it is the case that the offer only applies on bank holidays in England the website & promotional material should make that clear as many VTEC trains originate from Scotland.

It's something they should sort out and make it clear to staff and especially cross-border passengers - because 2nd January, 6th August, 30th November are all bank holidays in Scotland but not England, the opposite for 2nd May and 27th August.

And many people of course will make journey's on VTEC which are wholly within Scotland such as Aberdeen to Edinburgh!

If VTEC follow the English bank holidays, does that mean passengers on that journey can upgrade to first on Monday 2nd April?

 

[yorkie]

If VTEC follow the English bank holidays, does that mean passengers on that journey can upgrade to first on Monday 2nd April?

If not, ask for Weekend First to be issued to somewhere like York (same price) and finish short

 

[whhistle]

If that really was/is the case then that’s daft. Social media handlers ought to have the latitude to disregard or ignore tweets which do not warrant a response for whatever reason. That might be abuse, trolling, garbage nonsense, spam, and time wasters among other things. The other thing to note is this policy seems to imply the company always has to have the last word. It doesn’t and it shouldn’t. It’s often a good thing to let the customer have the last word, as having the last word essentially helps the customer feel they have discharged their anger or frustration.

Goes deeper than that.
Any reply that was over 2 minutes from the original tweet was frowned upon. Trying to reply to everyone within 2 minutes - you can see why the operative snapped "it isn't funny, George" during some major disruption.
It may have changed in recent times though.

It does seem that more and more social media teams seem to be thinking the Virgin model is the one to replicate.

Which is a shame as there were many that were funny, but knew when to be a little more corporate.
Tesco Mobile and Argos were two others.

Perhaps the "fame" that came with poo-gate got other train companies thinking they could get in on the action. Word of mouth is ALWAYS stronger than any marketing any company can do.

Also to note: Virgin WC (used to?) use a website called leaderboarded to check their competition. It's now changed name but still operates in the same way - http://rise.global/uk-twitter-social-customer-care

Also read (from here) that it seems to be the same person that insulted that other guy about the basic nature of the new Azuma trains.

 

[sefton]

However, the guard is not under any legal obligation to sell the Upgrade. (IANAL)

I can understand how the guard can choose not to sell the upgrade, however if they choose not to sell something that has been promised by another member of staff and on which promise the customer has acted on, then I struggle to see they have any right to penalise the customer.

For example if a train company's website told it's customers they could buy tickets on board if the guard chose to refuse to sell them because they didn't want to, they could hardly issue penalty fares or prosecute for not having a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can understand how the guard can choose not to sell the upgrade, however if they choose not to sell something that has been promised by another member of staff and on which promise the customer has acted on, then I struggle to see they have any right to penalise the customer.

For example if a train company's website told it's customers they could buy tickets on board if the guard chose to refuse to sell them because they didn't want to, they could hardly issue penalty fares or prosecute for not having a ticket.

I wasn’t aware the customer had been penalised. They were simply told to take a seat in Standard, commensurate with their ticket. That’s not penalising them.

A guard is generally not able to issue a penalty fare or report for prosecution in any case.

 

[sefton]

I wasn’t aware the customer had been penalised. They were simply told to take a seat in Standard, commensurate with their ticket. That’s not penalising them.

A guard is generally not able to issue a penalty fare or report for prosecution in any case.

The question though is what if the customer declined to move on the basis they were willing to pay for the upgrade they were promised would be sold but the guard had chosen not to sell.

 

[AlterEgo]

The question though is what if the customer declined to move on the basis they were willing to pay for the upgrade they were promised would be sold but the guard had chosen not to sell.

Then they would be issued an Unpaid Fare Notice.

If one was issued, I think it would be easily contested, but one could still be issued. An Unpaid Fare Notice is an invoice for the fare due and is not a penalty.

 

[Chrism20]

Also read (from here) that it seems to be the same person that insulted that other guy about the basic nature of the new Azuma trains.

I had a horrible feeling this may happen. There will be someone sitting in an office somewhere trawling through twitter looking for other instances.

 

[Mag_seven]

From the VTEC site:




This seems pretty clear to me.

However elsewhere the Virgin Weekend Upgrade suggests this:



It’s easy to see where confusion has arisen.

However, the guard is not under any legal obligation to sell the Upgrade. (IANAL)

Back in GNER days they solved the 2nd January (bank holiday in Scotland but not in England) issue by allowing weekend first upgrades for journeys commencing in Scotland but only if booked in advance. The same did not apply for journeys ending in Scotland though.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Also read (from here) that it seems to be the same person that insulted that other guy about the basic nature of the new Azuma trains.

He wasn't insulted! (click thumbnail to enlarge)

 

[SaveECRewards]

Back in GNER days they solved the 2nd January (bank holiday in Scotland but not in England) issue by allowing weekend first upgrades for journeys commencing in Scotland but only if booked in advance. The same did not apply for journeys ending in Scotland though.

Ah yeah, that was it! For some reason the ability to purchase weekend first in advance was removed at some point. As was the free weekend first upgrades for standard open ticket holders (VTWC still does it though for standard anytime ticket holders).

 

[Tetchytyke]

There will be someone sitting in an office somewhere trawling through twitter looking for other instances.

I'm sure there will be.

Pity it wasn't their manager, this whole thing might have been prevented a long time ago with a few stern words.

There have been a couple of smart alecs on VTEC's Twitter feed for quite some time, the amount of throwaway "banter" that was basically sneering, insulting and patronising meant this was only going to be a matter of time. As others have said, it's amazing it's taken as long as it has.

I wasn’t aware the customer had been penalised. They were simply told to take a seat in Standard, commensurate with their ticket. That’s not penalising them.

The problem was, I believe, that there were no longer any seats in standard. Which is fairly typical for Hogmanay trains from Edinburgh.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I'm sure there will be.

Pity it wasn't their manager, this whole thing might have been prevented a long time ago with a few stern words.

There have been a couple of smart alecs on VTEC's Twitter feed for quite some time, the amount of throwaway "banter" that was basically sneering, insulting and patronising meant this was only going to be a matter of time. As others have said, it's amazing it's taken as long as it has.

You'd hope that management is watching what tweets are sent (after all why else would you need a dedicated social media manager if not to manage) and therefore must be OK with it except when they get bad publicity for it (then again is this bad publicity for VTEC - it distracted the public from the news the Labour shadow transport secretary was stuck on a broken down VTEC train for a number of hours, plus Lord Adonis was being quite vocal that day too).

If they got rid of ^MS over this tweet it would be wrong. The Azuma/basic incident in 2016 was taken in the good humour it was intended rather than the outrage the online press wanted to make it seem and if I wanted to be vindictive I can think of much more dismissive tweets to real complaints from other members of the team. The cultural issues where complaints are seemingly dismissed need to be addressed, the problem is they're encouraged to be a 'little bit cheeky' as per the Virgin way.

Let's forget about the guard. We weren't there, someone posted backing her up on Twitter saying the guard was using an inappropriate tone, but then someone else who also claimed to be on the train claimed she was being rude and appeared drunk. Either one could be true or they could be lies.

Looking at her timeline she never complained about the first class upgrades. Her first Tweet to VTEC that day (2 Jan) was the one that was publicised, it said:

When virgin trains mess up and the older male train manager in the resulting conversation dismisses you with that hideously patronising word women shudder at in contexts such as these: "honey" @virgin_trainsEC.

This was the only Tweet from her at the time. Reading it I thought the mess up was simply the use of the term 'honey', there was no way for ^MS to know she had any problem on-board apart from the use of the word.

The reply was ill-judged but there was no way at the time to know that she had a serious issue about not being able to get an upgrade that was promised. Perhaps when tweeting you need to include the important parts first. Mention you were told you could get an upgrade, was refused and then she thought the guard was rude.

 

[gavin]

I haven't seen ^MS on VTEC twitter since around noon on Tuesday ^SH took over for a couple of hours until the late shift took over at 14:00

 

[Tetchytyke]

This was the only Tweet from her at the time. Reading it I thought the mess up was simply the use of the term 'honey', there was no way for ^MS to know she had any problem on-board apart from the use of the word.

Indeed, and I suspect her real ire was at being dismissed so patronisingly.

To then get such a blatantly sarcastic and sneering response in reply is what caused it to go bigger.

But yes, I'm as cynical as you about the timing. It certainly distracts attention from Grayling's Gigantic Giveaway to the tax dodger and his gay-bashing friend.

 

[MCSHF007]

Has it been confirmed that the ticket office staff were advising customers that 'weekend' upgrades were available that day?

With the greatest of respect to those members of platform staff who may be more 'clued-up', in general I wouldn't like to rely on most advice from this quarter re ticket availability and restrictions ("they told me.....")

 

[TUC]

Some passengers really do winge about minor things don't they?

 

[matt_world2004]

'older male'. She still referred to him by sex. .

This sounds like it was to identify the guard rather than patronise or insult them

 

[Merseysider]

This sounds like it was to identify the guard rather than patronise or insult them

I agree with you.

 

[sefton]

Then they would be issued an Unpaid Fare Notice.

If one was issued, I think it would be easily contested, but one could still be issued. An Unpaid Fare Notice is an invoice for the fare due and is not a penalty.

Would the Unpaid Fare Notice be for the fare the customer was told they could pay, and want to pay but the guard has taken a decision not to sell, or for a fare the guard will sell?

If it is for the latter could the customer insist on making payment for the former so it is only the difference that is unpaid. If so, could the customer refuse to accept an Unpaid Fare Notice on the basis they don't consider anything is due to be paid.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would the Unpaid Fare Notice be for the fare the customer was told they could pay, and want to pay but the guard has taken a decision not to sell, or for a fare the guard will sell?

If it is for the latter could the customer insist on making payment for the former so it is only the difference that is unpaid. If so, could the customer refuse to accept an Unpaid Fare Notice on the basis they don't consider anything is due to be paid.

It would be for the appropriate fare, which would be a First Class Anytime. As I’ve said, I think that UFN would be very easily challenged given the public info on Virgin’s own site and NRE.

There is no way for “paying for half a UFN”. You either buy the ticket or you don’t and there’s no mechanism to give the guard £15 or whatever and say “here’s some of what you want”.

On “refusing” a UFN, it depends what you mean by that. If someone refused to cooperate at all, and refused to give an address, they’d be committing an offence and could be met by BTP. If they just refuse to sign it, or take their own copy of the notice, this makes no difference whatsoever to the enforceability or otherwise of said notice.

 

[Marklund]

Looking at her timeline she never complained about the first class upgrades. Her first Tweet to VTEC that day (2 Jan) was the one that was publicised, it said:

When virgin trains mess up and the older male train manager in the resulting conversation dismisses you with that hideously patronising word women shudder at in contexts such as these: "honey" @virgin_trainsEC.

This was the only Tweet from her at the time. Reading it I thought the mess up was simply the use of the term 'honey', there was no way for ^MS to know she had any problem on-board apart from the use of the word.

I've bolded her quote the part that proves that's wrong. It's clear that she's had a problem from the use of the words virgin trains mess up.