Virgin m-ticket on other TOC service

[eastend43]

Hi

Just looking for general advice for next time as I didn't have a problem this time as there were not any ticket checks during the journey.

I bought a Liverpool to London return on the Virgin Trains website and as I was running late I opted for the m-ticket. It downloaded successfully and no problems using it going to London.

Coming back I often go via Chester, changing onto a Merseyrail service and stopping short at a station in the Wirral. As it's an off-peak return I understand it to be fine (in terms of permitted route and break of journey) and actually the stopping short part isn't that important for my query.

I changed at Chester today onto Merseyrail while traveling on the return part of the m-ticket, but only when on the Merseyrail service I wondered whether they would accept that I had a valid ticket or whether they would want a Penalty Fare or worse. I suspect they would have no way of checking the barcode or otherwise checking I had a valid question.

I couldn't see anything definitive on the Virgin Trains website. On the one hand the booking confirmation says 'travel is valid via any permitted route', however on their website it states

What services are m-tickets available for?

Since 23 February 2016, m-tickets are now available for all tickets on Virgin Trains services along the West Coast Mainline.​

which is a bit ambiguous (to me) but could be interpreted as the m-ticket only being valid on Virgin Trains.

Anybody got ideas what should have or could have happened?

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

If it's an Any Permitted Off Peak Single/Return, it's valid on all permitted routes.

"What counts is the message, not the medium."

 

[najaB]

If it's an Any Permitted Off Peak Single/Return, it's valid on all permitted routes.

I agree with you, and the principle but the difficulty I have is that fundamentally presenting a mTicket on a train where the staff have no way to read it is no different to presenting a dead phone on a train where they can.

In both cases the phone contains a valid ticket, but in neither case can it be read.

 

[sheff1]

I agree with you, and the principle but the difficulty I have is that fundamentally presenting a mTicket on a train where the staff have no way to read it is no different to presenting a dead phone on a train where they can.

In both cases the phone contains a valid ticket, but in neither case can it be read.

In the former case that is the fault of the TOC, in the latter it is the fault of the passenger ... so very different.

 

[causton]

I could understand an electronic ticket, but you don't need to work for Virgin to decipher this:

http://i4.coventrytelegraph.net/inc...e/ALTERNATES/s615b/Virgin-Trains-m-ticket.jpg

LM have been briefed by Virgin on how to accept these, so hopefully Merseyrail know as well!

 

[najaB]

In the former case that is the fault of the TOC, in the latter it is the fault of the passenger ... so very different.

I'm not disputing that. And, as I said, I agree that in this case the passenger holds a valid ticket.

The the issue is that if principle is that "the message is important, not the medium" does this open the door for abuse since a dead phone also contains a valid ticket?

 

[Starmill]

The the issue is that if principle is that "the message is important, not the medium" does this open the door for abuse since a dead phone also contains a valid ticket?

I don't see that it does any more than if someone has paid for a valid ticket on paper and then left it at home. They clearly think it's not that much of a problem because they have expanded their offer of m-tickets.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Another data point I've had mTickets accepted on Northern even though they didn't scan them. The mTickets have a button where you can display an animation which although not impossible to forge makes it more difficult than a simple photoshop.

 

[najaB]

I don't see that it does any more than if someone has paid for a valid ticket on paper and then left it at home.

Except that, if the "medium doesn't matter", then they are in possession of a valid ticket.

This is the kind of issue that the law will increasingly have to adapt to. For example, the Railway Byelaws require you to "...hand over your ticket for inspection..." which is fine in the case of a paper ticket which remains the property of the railway. Can they require you to hand over your mobile?

For that matter, is a mTicket property of the railway?

 

[yorkie]

Except that, if the "medium doesn't matter", then they are in possession of a valid ticket.

Only in the same way that someone who has a valid ticket buried deep in their bag and is unable to present it!

This is the kind of issue that the law will increasingly have to adapt to. For example, the Railway Byelaws require you to "...hand over your ticket for inspection..." which is fine in the case of a paper ticket which remains the property of the railway. Can they require you to hand over your mobile?

No, but the device must be presented for display.

For that matter, is a mTicket property of the railway?

The ticket (the data) will be, but the device isn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the former case that is the fault of the TOC, in the latter it is the fault of the passenger ... so very different.

Very, very different yes.

 

[najaB]

Only in the same way that someone who has a valid ticket buried deep in their bag and is unable to present it!

That analogy works - I'm less concerned now that people have a potential avenue to try it on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not disputing that. And, as I said, I agree that in this case the passenger holds a valid ticket.

The the issue is that if principle is that "the message is important, not the medium" does this open the door for abuse since a dead phone also contains a valid ticket?

The requirement is to be able to show one. You can't show it if the phone has no battery.

 

[najaB]

The requirement is to be able to show one. You can't show it if the phone has no battery.

I agree that is the requirement for Byelaw 18.2 - how about 18.1?

 

[Merseysider]

The requirement is to be able to show one. You can't show it if the phone has no battery.

Agreed.

Perhaps the OP should consider investing in a mobile battery pack (<£10) if the possibility of their phone dying is of concern to them.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I think in the case described by the OP it certainly shouldn't be a problem, and should be accepted without problem. MTickets are fairly common now and as said, as long as the ticket can be presented for inspection and is being used in line with the various permissions and rules for both the ticket type and the media type, I can't see how they can cause a problem.

Where problems occur nowadays is when different TOCS have different relaxations of certain rules relating to certain products, which may be valid on more than one TOC.

This seems to be now appearing where some TOCS want to be seen (not unreasonably in many cases) to be nice and cuddly, or have been affected by recent franchise changes and have offered to do something different.

For example, VT allowing "print at home" tickets to not be printed, but just shown on the phone or laptop screen. Other TOCS may not allow this. TPE allowing Advance ticket holders to not have the reservation coupon as long as they have the reservation details elsewhere, such as on an email, (which I must say is eminently sensible - but other TOCS perhaps accepting the same ticket may not agree) or saying that if you forget your railcard you will now only be charged an Excess and can claim it back. XC saying they will no longer charge the £10 admin fee for changing advance tickets.

In all these cases this just opens uncertainty into the system - and ultimately does create difficult situations for front line staff at different TOCS. Passenger A can not bother to print his print at home ticket out when he catches VTWC as they will accept it on the screen. The next week he gets a print at home for TPE who won't accept a screen picture and says he must buy again.
Passenger B has left his railcard at home. Today on TPE he just gets charged an Excess, but next week he gets a VTEC train back and expects to just pay an Excess but - in exactly the same situation - gets charged for a whole new ticket again.
When XC stop charging the £10 admin fee how will that work? Either way there will be situations where a passenger finds themselves not having to pay it to XC one week, but having to pay it the next week with a different TOC.

It is situations like this which cause concern and problems for the passenger, so I can easily see why the OP may get worried about Merseyrail accepting such a ticket.

Sometimes it would be nice if the ambiguity was removed and when one TOC adopts a certain policy, then it should be adopted universally.

 

[eastend43]

Well the OP (as in me!) had a fully charged phone and a battery charger but that isn't the issue I posted about. It was a question as to whether Merseyrail would accept a m-ticket issued by Virgin Trains. While I fully agree with Yorkie about me having a valid ticket, it might be fair to say that Merseyrail aren't exactly pro IT innovation (hence all Wirral residents having to go to either Liverpool or Chester to pick up tickets they have bought online). One reason I was asking is because if a m-ticket from Liverpool to London from Virgin was accepted on Merseyrail then it's far more convenient (and cheaper) for me to select that option and go from from Birkenkead to London via Chester rather than having to pay Merseyrail to carry me to Lime Street or Chester to pick up my tickets.

 

[Merseysider]

The chances of a ticket check once onboard a Merseyrail service anywhere between Liverpool and Chester are very slim. In any case, you've paid your fare and hold a valid ticket, so you can't be guilty of any offence. Our staff are fairly sound around here anyway and will probably take your word for it if they're unfamiliar with the medium. Show it at the barriers (on the app, not a screenshot) and you'll be fine.

 

[daodao]

The chances of a ticket check once onboard a Merseyrail service anywhere between Liverpool and Chester are very slim. In any case, you've paid your fare and hold a valid ticket, so you can't be guilty of any offence. Our staff are fairly sound around here anyway and will probably take your word for it if they're unfamiliar with the medium. Show it at the barriers (on the app, not a screenshot) and you'll be fine.

Unless one holds a valid ticket and can present it to the guard/ticket inspector on demand, in the form acceptable to that TOC, one runs the risk of a penalty fare or worse, as evidenced by other posts on this forum. It is clearly not sufficient to have purchased a ticket, unless it can be presented on request. Hence the difficulties encountered if one loses a ticket en route.

Many TOCs will probably require a physical ticket, not an electronic display, so the latter is only likely to be acceptable on services/stations run by TOCs who explicitly state that an electronic ticket is acceptable.

 

[jkdd77]

TOCs are obliged by their franchise agreements and by the NRCoT to accept valid inter-available tickets. It therefore follows that any such restriction would have to be advised in the m-ticket T & Cs at the point of purchase, otherwise the ticket is contractually valid for the journey made under the NRCoT (assuming all other conditions are complied with), and:
1) any PF would be invalid, and;
2) any prosecution would be bound to fail

The byelaws require that a valid ticket be handed over for inspection and verification of validity. If a valid ticket is handed over for inspection and verification, then it is not the passenger's fault that a ticket inspector is unable to verify the validity of the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Unless one holds a valid ticket and can present it to the guard/ticket inspector on demand, in the form acceptable to that TOC, one runs the risk of a penalty fare or worse, as evidenced by other posts on this forum. It is clearly not sufficient to have purchased a ticket, unless it can be presented on request. Hence the difficulties encountered if one loses a ticket en route.

Many TOCs will probably require a physical ticket, not an electronic display, so the latter is only likely to be acceptable on services/stations run by TOCs who explicitly state that an electronic ticket is acceptable.

Are you suggesting Merseyrail are in the business of refusing to adhere to NRCoT and the TSA?

If so, that's a serious matter...

 

[daodao]

Are you suggesting Merseyrail are in the business of refusing to adhere to NRCoT and the TSA?

If so, that's a serious matter...

Not specifically Merseyrail, but have all TOCs signed up to accepting electronic tickets? I would expect that they would cause problems at stations where there are unmanned ticket barriers.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Not specifically Meerseyrail, but have all TOCs signed up to accepting electronic tickets? I would expect that they would cause problems at stations where there are unmanned ticket barriers.

Virtually all unmanned barriers will have a means to contact someone to let you through if you don't hold a standard magnetic-stripe ticket or whatever.

 

[headshot119]

Are you suggesting Merseyrail are in the business of refusing to adhere to NRCoT and the TSA?

If so, that's a serious matter...

Merseyrail / Merseytravel are the muppets who invented a smart card product that you have to keep a paper ticket for. :roll: So I wouldn't be surprised if they got in a tizz over an M ticket.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Merseyrail / Merseytravel are the muppets who invented a smart card product that you have to keep a paper ticket for.

Same as Metro in West Yorkshire. Same as Oyster in London when it first came out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not specifically Merseyrail, but have all TOCs signed up to accepting electronic tickets? I would expect that they would cause problems at stations where there are unmanned ticket barriers.

There are no unmanned ticket barriers. AIUI this is not legal.

Some are remote monitored from elsewhere in the station but you can always find a member of staff on site if they are closed.


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[185]

Even my employer (outside ATOC) recently issued bulletins / training to accept ATOC-app tickets so should Merseyrail, an ordinary ATOC operator, choose not to accept these tickets they are probably in breach of their franchise. No excuse for it whatsoever.

 

[island]

Even my employer (outside ATOC) recently issued bulletins / training to accept ATOC-app tickets so should Merseyrail, an ordinary ATOC operator, choose not to accept these tickets they are probably in breach of their franchise.

What franchise?

 

[185]

Put personal data up on here?

Post your full name, address, postcode, shoesize, below. Then I'll post my dress size too.

 

[Haywain]

What franchise?

A train company with an interest in tickets that is outside of ATOC? So many to choose from!

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[Deerfold]

A train company with an interest in tickets that is outside of ATOC? So many to choose from!

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Plenty of Open Access Operators, but that have a franchise? I can't think of any.