Virgin Plans Extra Liverpool Lime Street Services from 10 June 2019

[The Planner]

17/18 remain available for use for the foreseeable, but no planned use for May to ease the signallers in to them going eventually.

Only for 6 weeks after May starts in case it goes pear shaped at the timetable change.

 

[mmh]

Wouldn't surprise me, VT after the evening peaks at Euston have such short turnaround as well, & seen it myself, caught the 19.07 Euston-Liverpool, the incoming journey that formed the Liverpool train supposed arrive just before 7pm, but got pathed to another platform & ended up going to another destination, so the train behind that one which was running late ended up being pathed to the platform the Liverpool train was to depart from, & that ended up being the Liverpool train, but arrived at Euston couple of minutes before it was to depart again, so the Liverpool train ended up being 10 minutes late on departure.

That sounds very inefficient, why not just have a platform swap rather than a unit swap and staff having to swap platforms and units?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Interesting comment in Modern Railways today about the loadings on some of the extra VWC Blackpool trains - or one of them at least - the 0854 from Euston , from Rugby on the 15th January had the grand total of 1 first and 5 standard passengers on board from Rugby (less than the train / service crews) , - admittedly in the off season , not calling at Crewe and has 21 mins or so of pathing time. I quote only the comments from a very experienced person , who basically sees the GNW services as a "revenue raid on West Coast" .

He also makes the comment that Blackpool North has "fallen on hard times" (or the resort seemingly has) , - with a passenger footfall less than Lancaster.

Not all about Blackpool per se , but it makes interesting reading.

 

[sufian123]

Interesting comment in Modern Railways today about the loadings on some of the extra VWC Blackpool trains - or one of them at least - the 0854 from Euston , from Rugby on the 15th January had the grand total of 1 first and 5 standard passengers on board from Rugby (less than the train / service crews) , - admittedly in the off season , not calling at Crewe and has 21 mins or so of pathing time. I quote only the comments from a very experienced person , who basically sees the GNW services as a "revenue raid on West Coast" .

He also makes the comment that Blackpool North has "fallen on hard times" (or the resort seemingly has) , - with a passenger footfall less than Lancaster.

Not all about Blackpool per se , but it makes interesting reading.

I kinda agree with that as Xmas time that train on Sat was replaced by a 5 cars. No one was complaining

 

[Statto]

That sounds very inefficient, why not just have a platform swap rather than a unit swap and staff having to swap platforms and units?

There were loads of us waiting at the doors leading to the platform, were you would have missed any announcements of platform changes, as Euston is one of those stations the platforms feel like miles away from the concourse, plus the concourse is small, so those savvy will go to the doors leading to the platforms

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting comment in Modern Railways today about the loadings on some of the extra VWC Blackpool trains - or one of them at least - the 0854 from Euston , from Rugby on the 15th January had the grand total of 1 first and 5 standard passengers on board from Rugby (less than the train / service crews) , - admittedly in the off season , not calling at Crewe and has 21 mins or so of pathing time. I quote only the comments from a very experienced person , who basically sees the GNW services as a "revenue raid on West Coast" .
He also makes the comment that Blackpool North has "fallen on hard times" (or the resort seemingly has) , - with a passenger footfall less than Lancaster.
Not all about Blackpool per se , but it makes interesting reading.

That mirrors my casual experience of that train, from Wigan.
Of course, the southbound leg at 1302 from Blackpool could be a very popular service during the tourist/conference season.
I'd be more impressed if these trains stopped at Crewe and pulled their weight for WCML connectivity and to relieve the Scotland services.

 

[The Planner]

Interesting comment in Modern Railways today about the loadings on some of the extra VWC Blackpool trains - or one of them at least - the 0854 from Euston , from Rugby on the 15th January had the grand total of 1 first and 5 standard passengers on board from Rugby (less than the train / service crews) , - admittedly in the off season , not calling at Crewe and has 21 mins or so of pathing time. I quote only the comments from a very experienced person , who basically sees the GNW services as a "revenue raid on West Coast" .

He also makes the comment that Blackpool North has "fallen on hard times" (or the resort seemingly has) , - with a passenger footfall less than Lancaster.

Not all about Blackpool per se , but it makes interesting reading.

Up the back end of the LNWR Liverpool up to Weaver. You could stop it at Crewe without causing too much grief and probably not knock the VT Liverpool behind it. I doubt Pendolinos will be lasting long on that route.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That mirrors my casual experience of that train, from Wigan.
Of course, the southbound leg at 1302 from Blackpool could be a very popular service during the tourist/conference season.
I'd be more impressed if these trains stopped at Crewe and pulled their weight for WCML connectivity and to relieve the Scotland services.

That sounds like an excellent idea - if it (or others) could be (maybe) put round the back platform on the up - or even platformed elsewhere , whereas a real useful call could be made. Blackpool - for all it's difficulties does deserve some better connectivity , and we all know how sections of the WCML deserve / need some augmentation.

Riding around , as one does - i got the 1347 from Liverpool the other Monday - and I was quite impressed with the loadings from Lime St / Runcorn / Crewe with a top-up at Stafford. This being well out of the leisure season too , some decent business on board.

 

[87015]

Only for 6 weeks after May starts in case it goes pear shaped at the timetable change.

Christ they better start telling people, we have it as Plan c until December and a fair whack of that’s been bid now!

 

[cle]

Curious spot! First service I can think of which calls at Harrow & Wealdstone, and not Watford Junction. Must be pathing, but weird as it's on the slows through Watford and Harrow, so not usually an issue.

LB to H&W is an unusual express run too!

 

[Class 170101]

Nuneaton now suffers by being the largest town on the LNR route north of about MK - most other comparable towns are en route to somewhere bigger in traffic terms.

Still it gets later trains from May TT change to London but oddly this later service doesn't call at Watford Jn which you would expect it to linking Nuneaton with Watford.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P46012/2019/05/29/advanced

 

[61653 HTAFC]

He also makes the comment that Blackpool North has "fallen on hard times" (or the resort seemingly has)

Is that really new information? Surely the London services are intended to help remedy that situation (just as the planned Huddersfield and Middlesbrough LNER services are)?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...r-letter-virgin-trains-25th-sa-2019.02.08.pdf

Conclusion

Network Rail has not been approached by Virgin Trains to assess whether there is sufficient capacity to operate additional services between Euston and Liverpool Lime Street alongside other committed rights.

Network Rail has concerns that there would be insufficient capacity to operate these services alongside the rights of other operators,and it has not had the opportunity to assess the impact to performance.The WCML will see intensive changes due to the works being undertaken in support of delivering HS2at Euston and elsewhere.

Therefore, sufficient assurances need to be in place to provide confidence that the introduction of additional services is operationally deliverable in terms of capacity, power supply and train performance.At this stage Network Rail cannot support The Application, but we will continue to work with Virgin Trains, as we would with any applicant, to understand whether the proposal can be accommodated in any way from December 2019 onwards. We require significant further information from Virgin Trains to be able to do this.

Network Rail has responded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...r-letter-virgin-trains-25th-sa-2019.02.08.pdf

Network Rail has responded.

So Virgin were being arrogant and got a slap. Oops.

To be fair they deserve it for suggesting 5-car Voyager diagrams. There are precious few services for which these are adequate at the kind of times they want stock for these additional services. (It's all very well operating a 5-car Voyager northbound at 2pm on a Saturday, but that won't free up a Pendolino when they need one).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...r-letter-virgin-trains-25th-sa-2019.02.08.pdf

Network Rail has responded.

Oof, seems, if NR are being accurate, that Virgin were chancing their arm with a rushed application they hadn't consulted NR on, hoping to release an extra two Pendolinos through maintenance schedule changes and the splitting of a Voyager, the resulting Voyager capacity loss being rectified through "fares" - in other words, selling fewer Advances.

An extra Pendolino is nothing to be sniffed at, but I question whether it's really sustainable to run an extra 10 odd trains a day each way using just two extra Pendolinos.

 

[rg177]

Still it gets later trains from May TT change to London but oddly this later service doesn't call at Watford Jn which you would expect it to linking Nuneaton with Watford.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P46012/2019/05/29/advanced

Seems like a change at Milton Keynes for the ex-Birmingham stopper is required for Watford Junction. Interesting to see that it stops at Harrow instead, a couple of last connections onto the tube as far as Queen's Park there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You'd think that Network Rail had never thought of the possibility of increasing services to Liverpool.
Nor that they had written RUS documents which anticipate this very request.
Or that 2tph is in the future specification for HS2 services, which several bidders, HS2 Ltd and DfT have been planning for many months.
And with all the talk of "partnerships", and with Virgin being the route's principle customer for 22 years, they are still talking as if they have never met.
My guess is that NR is deliberately putting VT off until the future franchise ownership is clarified (not to mention the NR reorganisation and Williams review).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You'd think that Network Rail had never thought of the possibility of increasing services to Liverpool.
Nor that they had written RUS documents which anticipate this very request.
Or that 2tph is in the future specification for HS2 services, which several bidders, HS2 Ltd and DfT have been planning for many months.
And with all the talk of "partnerships", and with Virgin being the route's principle customer for 22 years, they are still talking as if they have never met.
My guess is that NR is deliberately putting VT off until the future franchise ownership is clarified (not to mention the NR reorganisation and Williams review).

True, they did seem to try and find as many problems as possible, but equally it doesn't seem Virgin are coming at it with clean hands either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems like a change at Milton Keynes for the ex-Birmingham stopper is required for Watford Junction. Interesting to see that it stops at Harrow instead, a couple of last connections onto the tube as far as Queen's Park there.

That is utterly, utterly bizarre. I assume there must be a reason, but I predict a load of people are going to end up at Euston instead. At least there's the 0134 to get back, and nobody gives a stuff about revenue at that time of night so they won't end up with a PF.

 

[Starmill]

Up the back end of the LNWR Liverpool up to Weaver. You could stop it at Crewe without causing too much grief and probably not knock the VT Liverpool behind it. I doubt Pendolinos will be lasting long on that route.

From a commercial perspective I am very surprised they would pass any oppourtunity up to call at Crewe, given the journey times on them are not particularly important. I have sat at Crewe and watched one pass, which I would have boarded if it were an option.

Perhaps they could only call in one direction and they don't want to confuse people? One of the key benefits I have noticed of the services from Blackpool North is they leave Warrington right behind the Edinburgh to London service, which gives Oxenholme / Penrith to London passengers slightly quicker journey options in the hours that the express skips them. Not that there are many such. It also offers some exceptionally cheap Advance tickets from Edinburgh to London, I have spotted as cheap as £24. This can create the bizarre situation where remaining onboard the 1052 from Edinburgh and going via Birmingham is more expensive than getting off at Preston and joining the VT ex Blackpool. This is a strange reverasal of the previous experience many people had with this route a few years ago when the services were joined across Birmingham. But I digress!

 

[The Planner]

You'd think that Network Rail had never thought of the possibility of increasing services to Liverpool.
Nor that they had written RUS documents which anticipate this very request.
Or that 2tph is in the future specification for HS2 services, which several bidders, HS2 Ltd and DfT have been planning for many months.
And with all the talk of "partnerships", and with Virgin being the route's principle customer for 22 years, they are still talking as if they have never met.
My guess is that NR is deliberately putting VT off until the future franchise ownership is clarified (not to mention the NR reorganisation and Williams review).

The response pretty much summed it up, Virgin didnt consult NR properly or within Part D of the Network Code so got told to do one, nothing else in it at all.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

How many paths are left on the WCML into Euston after this service? It is a good idea to provide extra services to Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[Starmill]

Philip Sherratt writing in Modern Railways says that there are "no timetable changes in May" at Virgin Trains. Obviously this is technically correct but it seems a slightly strange omission if the additional services are to go ahead in June? He specifically mentions the other enhancements which are expected to take place during the life of the upcoming timetable but which will not commence at its outset, including CrossCountry and GWR services to the new Worcestershire Parkway station, Greater Anglia services to the new Meridian Water station, and the new TransPennine Express services between Liverpool and Glasgow. A strange omission then, unless I have misinterpreted his article. To be fair, he also seems not to have mentioned the proposed Lincoln to London service increase or the Northern services to the new Warrington West station.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I doubt Virgin will be rushing to introduce new services now they are to be excluded from the next franchise.
I imagine the extra services were actually part of their WCP bid, and they were seeking to start them early as the capacity was available.
We are not quite at the exit point yet, but I suspect the view now is "why bother"?

 

[Starmill]

We are not quite at the exit point yet, but I suspect the view now is "why bother"?

You may of course be entirely right. It may simply be an indication they will not now take place. I should have been somewhat clearer on that.

 

[87015]

I doubt Virgin will be rushing to introduce new services now they are to be excluded from the next franchise.
I imagine the extra services were actually part of their WCP bid, and they were seeking to start them early as the capacity was available.
We are not quite at the exit point yet, but I suspect the view now is "why bother"?

They were rejected as VT declined to follow the industry process. Nothing to do with end of franchise.

 

[swt_passenger]

Philip Sherratt writing in Modern Railways says that there are "no timetable changes in May" at Virgin Trains. Obviously this is technically correct but it seems a slightly strange omission if the additional services are to go ahead in June? He specifically mentions the other enhancements which are expected to take place during the life of the upcoming timetable but which will not commence at its outset, including CrossCountry and GWR services to the new Worcestershire Parkway station, Greater Anglia services to the new Meridian Water station, and the new TransPennine Express services between Liverpool and Glasgow. A strange omission then, unless I have misinterpreted his article. To be fair, he also seems not to have mentioned the proposed Lincoln to London service increase or the Northern services to the new Warrington West station.

I suspect you need to read back to post #223, this proposal had apparently already been turned down by ORR after NR input.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They were rejected as VT declined to follow the industry process. Nothing to do with end of franchise.

What I meant was that VT will now be in no hurry to resubmit the application, when they might be off the premises by the time they can start.

 

[The Planner]

Also depends if they stuck them in their December bid and followed the process that way.