Virgin Trains barriers?

[thenorthern]

Have there been any new announcements on the installations of barriers for Virgin Trains or Network Rail managed stations?

I have regularly heard staff mention that they are installing barriers at Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Stafford and Wolverhampton but they haven't been installed as of yet.

Also have there been any plans released of where the barriers will be when they are installed?

 

[Kristofferson]

Are these the big doors/gates that close 2 minutes before departure?

Great in principle, in practice they're irritating as hell. The VT staff won't let you through to board services on adjacent platforms until their precious Pendo has boarded and departed. Or that's how it works at Euston anyway :mad:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are these the big doors/gates that close 2 minutes before departure?

I think he means ticket gates.

Neil

 

[14sutton]

Franchise agreement states they have to be in place by 1 April 2016.

Page 208


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/virgin-west-coast

 

[rdeez]

And where exactly are they going to fit barriers at some of these places? Stafford in particular - there's only one narrow entryway to all of the platforms, probably only wide enough for a single barrier. I suppose they could put them behind on platform 1, but that would be odd. Not a huge amount of space there either.

 

[14sutton]

Stafford is not on the list.

The 9 stations listed in the press release are

Man P
Stockport
Macclesfield
Stoke on T
Crewe
New ST
Bir International
Rugby
Euston


In addition there are plans for Coventry ( to put them back in!) and Wolverhampton both as part of station rebuilding projects over the next few years

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will be interesting to see how they do Euston. I guess they'll go across under the departure board and most of the retail will be removed to the new gallery. There's room to put a glass-screened passage through so the bogs are outside the gateline.

The big advantage if they do go there is that the "Euston scrum" will be reduced because the barriers will slow it down.

Will be a nuisance when arriving in the peak on P16-18 though - I would expect the direct access gates to outside will be closed, and the ramp is way too narrow for that kind of flow without them - it was difficult when that gate was closed during the Olympics for added security.

Neil

 

[rdeez]

Stafford is not on the list.

The 9 stations listed in the press release are

Man P
Stockport
Macclesfield
Stoke on T
Crewe
New ST
Bir International
Rugby
Euston


In addition there are plans for Coventry ( to put them back in!) and Wolverhampton both as part of station rebuilding projects over the next few years

I see. Wolverhampton is similar though - not a lot of space for barriers - I wonder where they're going to put them? Especially as the stairs are right behind the entrance to the platforms.

 

[14sutton]

Wolverhampton is being rebuilt, see DfT press release from this afternoon!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/transport-secretary-visits-wolverhampton

 

[rdeez]

Wolverhampton is being rebuilt, see DfT press release from this afternoon!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/transport-secretary-visits-wolverhampton

Aha! That was mentioned earlier in the thread I see as well. I missed that part. Thanks

 

[Camden]

I don't see the point of doing Euston/Piccadilly where they are just going to get in the way and be a nuisance, not to mention it must be expensive to install them in such an environment.

Why not just do the intermediary stations? If there is going to be fare dodging then it is more likely to be one stop to another rather than end to end, and end to end dodging could be mitigated by an all tickets check in the last leg of the journey.

 

[BurtonM]

Last leg isn't practical on Man Picc-Euston, the only time possible is as the train passes the Midlands and on approach to Euston. The stops are far too close together to get through 11 cars.

 

[DazDude]

Obviously some stations will present their own issues with regards the installation of barriers such as Rugby and a little bit of googling highlighted some issues at Rugby..
full report can be read here but interestingly the note about the public using the subway as an alternative to the narrow path that it shares with the road.

Station Subway
The main concern was loss of facility to use the station subway to walk from one side of the station to the other. The station subway is the only place other than the underpass to cross the railway without a big detour. This is more a community issue than one for rail users but concern was expressed about the potential safety hazard of the public road underpass because of the heavy traffic and narrow pavements. It was noted the public highway is the responsibility of the local authority and earlier opportunities, some years ago, to widen the roadway and pavement when the railway bridge was replaced were not taken up.

There was concern that people arriving at the station on the multi storey car park side wanting to buy tickets, get rail travel information, obtain refreshments or other material from the booking hall may have difficulty as they would not have a ticket to pass through the barriers. Rail customers would need to pass through two sets of barriers before, in some cases, they were able to buy a ticket, although a ticket machine would be available for ticket collection and day of travel tickets.

RRUG pointed out that Ped flow analysis needs to include pedestrians wanting to go through the subway rather than through the underpass. This must include legitimate rail users as well as members of the general public.

obviously there is a similar issue with Stockport but obviously not as much a concern than above.

 

[dk1]

I think it works quite well with human barriers in the form of revenue protection staff at Euston. They take no prisoners & always entertaining to watch those with Advance tickets for the wrong train have a strop when they're sent packing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it works quite well with human barriers in the form of revenue protection staff at Euston. They take no prisoners & always entertaining to watch those with Advance tickets for the wrong train have a strop when they're sent packing.

Problem is it's very expensive compared with automatic barriers.

You could also look at it cynically and call people with Advance tickets on the wrong train a revenue stream when the Anytimes start being sold...Ryanair would!

Neil

 

[Trackman]

I think it works quite well with human barriers in the form of revenue protection staff at Euston. They take no prisoners & always entertaining to watch those with Advance tickets for the wrong train have a strop when they're sent packing.

I do the Man Pic- Euston journey regularly, also a source of entertainment for me at the barrier. The number of people with printed off booking confirmation emails from trainline/virgin tickets thinking they are valid astounds me too.

I'm curious how the ticket gates will suss out advance tickets.

 

[Clip]

I do the Man Pic- Euston journey regularly, also a source of entertainment for me at the barrier. The number of people with printed off booking confirmation emails from trainline/virgin tickets thinking they are valid astounds me too.

I'm curious how the ticket gates will suss out advance tickets.

In what way? Are these gatelines going to be different from others then?

 

[Deerfold]

I'm curious how the ticket gates will suss out advance tickets.

Given the validity time is not encoded on the magnetic strip, it'll be tricky.

 

[causton]

In what way? Are these gatelines going to be different from others then?

Current gatelines either reject all advance tickets, or accept all even though they may not be valid at that time. Not an ideal solution!

 

[David Goddard]

Problem is it's very expensive compared with automatic barriers.

You could also look at it cynically and call people with Advance tickets on the wrong train a revenue stream when the Anytimes start being sold...Ryanair would!

Neil

Ah yes but is it?
Everytime we read about barrier installations, following the usual bull about improved security there follows details about the creation of jobs, so they must therefore cost more in staffing.

When we went to Scotland last week there were two members of staff checking tickets as we boarded at Euston, and these were the crew who then boarded the train. A gateline will need staff on it all of the time it is in operation.

I'm all for a full ticket check on the train (we had two on the return from Glasgow), and anyone without a ticket being dealt with accordingly.

The space is very cramped at Man Picc so they would reduce the circulating space even more.

 

[dk1]

I do the Man Pic- Euston journey regularly, also a source of entertainment for me at the barrier. The number of people with printed off booking confirmation emails from trainline/virgin tickets thinking they are valid astounds me too.

I'm curious how the ticket gates will suss out advance tickets.

They cannot seem to grasp that they actually ticked this box themselves, yet its everybody elses fault. Annoys me that some TOCs turn a blind eye because they want it to be a success. This person could have given the printed copy to anybody & probably sits opposite them laughing at the silly railway.

 

[Clip]

Current gatelines either reject all advance tickets, or accept all even though they may not be valid at that time. Not an ideal solution!

I know that that is why I asked the question.

 

[clm]

Given the validity time is not encoded on the magnetic strip, it'll be tricky.

Out of interest, does anyone know what, if anything, is encoded on the magnetic strip of the reservation?

 

[ag51ruk]

Train manager on my VT Crewe- Manchester service yesterday said barriers due to go in at Piccadilly in June this year - although I have no idea how they will do it without removing more of thd glass wall between the concourse and platforms

 

[All Line Rover]

Train manager on my VT Crewe- Manchester service yesterday said barriers due to go in at Piccadilly in June this year - although I have no idea how they will do it without removing more of thd glass wall between the concourse and platforms

Make it like Waterloo?

---

I've no idea how they will barrier Crewe and, especially, Stoke. Either they man entrances/exists which see only a trickle of passengers for most of the day, or they leave them unmanned, which defeats the purpose of installing the barriers.

 

[ag51ruk]

Make it like Waterloo?

---

I've no idea how they will barrier Crewe and, especially, Stoke. Either they man entrances/exists which see only a trickle of passengers for most of the day, or they leave them unmanned, which defeats the purpose of installing the barriers.

Waterloo saw retail outlets removed - there is just a glass wall at Piccadilly.

Re Crewe/Stoke - same problem at Piccadilly. The entrance at the south end of platform 1 is a fare dodgers paradise and they always catch lots of people on the occasional full barrier checks that include it - but there is also the Fairfield Street lift from platforms 13/14 and platform 12 that sees many more users but would be costly to barrier and staff

 

[Bletchleyite]

Train manager on my VT Crewe- Manchester service yesterday said barriers due to go in at Piccadilly in June this year - although I have no idea how they will do it without removing more of thd glass wall between the concourse and platforms

They could do that, or they could (as doing that would make the concourse cold, as well as smell of urine and faeces as the place does in summer) get rid of some of the huts on the concourse and have a barrier line that takes up some of the concourse space.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've no idea how they will barrier Crewe and, especially, Stoke. Either they man entrances/exists which see only a trickle of passengers for most of the day, or they leave them unmanned, which defeats the purpose of installing the barriers.

Or they close them, leaving only the main entrance.

Is it permitted to have remote-monitored barriers these days, as long as someone is monitoring them?

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Re Crewe/Stoke - same problem at Piccadilly. The entrance at the south end of platform 1 is a fare dodgers paradise

Didn't even know there was one. Closing that would be an option, as I guess would be providing a glass-screened walkway along platform 1 to it, it'd only need to be a wheelchair-width and a bit and I'm sure there would be room.

there is also the Fairfield Street lift from platforms 13/14 and platform 12 that sees many more users but would be costly to barrier and staff

Birmingham New St lifts used to be a, ahem, workaround to the barriers. (No, I never used it for that purpose). Could a screen be provided along P12? As for getting to 13/14 is it the only lift access to those platforms, if not it could always be prevented from going to 13/14.

Neil

 

[Mojo]

Or they close them, leaving only the main entrance.

Given they spent £7 Million on the new entrance at Crewe which only opened 10 months ago, I highly doubt that it will be closed.

Is it permitted to have remote-monitored barriers these days, as long as someone is monitoring them?

Most likely they will install one of those nasty video/voice links controlled by staff either on the main gateline or in the station offices somewhere.

I say "nasty" because they are not good from either a revenue protection or customer service point of view. In a 5 Min period at one station with one of these setups I witnessed numerous people just force the barrier open without a care in the world.

 

[crehld]

Given they spent £7 Million on the new entrance at Crewe which only opened 10 months ago, I highly doubt that it will be closed.

Quite - and it's the only viable way to get to the Weston Road car park and the taxi rank, given there is no direct pavement between here and the main station entrance. A 'safe' walk around means using the crossing opposite the main station entrance to the other side of the bridge, walking down the road to the roundabout and then walking all the way around the roundabout, almost 360 degrees.

Most likely they will install one of those nasty video/voice links controlled by staff either on the main gateline or in the station offices somewhere.

I say "nasty" because they are not good from either a revenue protection or customer service point of view. In a 5 Min period at one station with one of these setups I witnessed numerous people just force the barrier open without a care in the world.

Or they will just install them to satisfy the franchise requirement, but leave them permanently on open. Upshot is I can't see barriers at Crewe working. I am not as familiar with Stoke, but I believe space there is even more at a premium.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know Crewe's new entrance, but if the extra entrance is onto a platform (which one?) an option would be to leave that platform (and that platform alone) unbarriered - in the manner of Paddington platform 1.

Neil