Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[ainsworth74]

Okay I think it's time to leave the CCG issues and wider private involvement in the healthcare system at this point. Whilst interesting it is very off-topic for this thread so I'd ask that anyone wishing to continue the discussion does so in a new thread in General Discussion (perhaps quoting a suitable post from this thread to get it rolling).

Otherwise let's return to the focus of this thread. The future of the Inter-City East Coast franchise, VTEC and LNER.

Many thanks,
ainsworth74

 

[mpthomson]

Do they? Really? Crapita took over an excellent GP surgery in Essex and got it put into special measures within 18 months.

Private providers also pick and choose the easy bits. We all know this.

I see in my field that the private providers get better scores because they gatekeep. They take the easy bits. Take IAPT. They take the counselling and CBT contracts and get good outcome scores because those people as easy and simple to treat. The NHS trust gets the people who are difficult to treat. Needless to say the targets don't reflect this.

The idea that private companies are automatically more efficient is 100% pure horse poo. But the management consultants and procurement lawyers who take massive wedges of cash naturally say otherwise. Why wouldn't they? They're the ones trousering hundreds of millions from it. Keep the gravy train rolling. Keep the bubble inflated with hubris.

Its this hubris that got VTEC into trouble.

Glad you think that people who need CBT or IAPT services are easy to treat, I don't know many counsellors and therapists who'd agree with you on that.

Who said that private companies were more efficient? I certainly didn't, some are, some aren't. the ones that aren't shouldn't be anywhere near contracts. I'm not slagging off NHS services generally either, far from it. But equally there are a significant number of service areas where they are demonstrably better, more efficient etc than the NHS, and that's why they (in the most part) have the contracts, and in terms of VFM for the taxpayer that's fine. Yes, some go wrong, but equally some NHS services go wrong as well, note recent NHS issues with breast and cervical screening, both of which have affected thousands of women, just as two recent examples.

Incidentally Capita (who I wouldn't defend in any way, they've ruined the Army recruitment system) taking over a GP practice isn't privatisation as the practice would almost certainly have been a private small business beforehand.

 

[mpthomson]

Okay I think it's time to leave the CCG issues and wider private involvement in the healthcare system at this point. Whilst interesting it is very off-topic for this thread so I'd ask that anyone wishing to continue the discussion does so in a new thread in General Discussion (perhaps quoting a suitable post from this thread to get it rolling).

Otherwise let's return to the focus of this thread. The future of the Inter-City East Coast franchise, VTEC and LNER.

Many thanks,
ainsworth74

Apologies, hadn't seen this before my last post. Please move if you feel you need to.

 

[SaveECRewards]

So, the Virgin Azuma livery could be the first new livery never to see passenger service.

Back when VTEC used to invite me to things I was at the Azuma launch event and was talking to the designer, Sam Jessop, he said that the livery on the train for that launch event was just a marketing livery and wouldn't be the livery for when the trains went into service.

I was told by a member of staff at the beginning of the year that the DfT asked them not to apply their livery to any of their trains until the department had made their decision on the franchise.

You can change your Twitter handle but it wouldn't be wise to do that if the franchise is changing hands. It would be fine for First Group to have done it when they rebranded from First Great Western to Great Western Railway though.

The @Virgin_TrainsEC account is just the old East Coast account renamed. (if you notice the current @eastcoastuk it's not the original account it's a placeholder to tell people of the new account). That means you can find Tweets that look like they're from Virgin talking about all the benefits of East Coast Rewards. You won't find any tweets talking about the benefits of Nectar, they tried it once and they got such a negative reply they deleted the Tweet (it was posted and deleted so quickly I never even seen their Tweet so they can't blame me, someone else told me about it).

Anyway, I'm delighted. But most importantly all the staff I've talked to so far have also been delighted. I've tried to sound neutral when asking so hopefully not to influence the outcome... "Do you think the announcement was a good or bad thing?" Also I remember how the morale was boosted when East Coast took over NXEC, it's the same here. I'd have expected to have seen at least some staff support for Virgin, but out in the field I couldn't find any. There has been some support for Virgin on Twitter, understandably those who work in the design team are the most worried and one driver said he thought I was being a bit unfair on VTEC. Then I got another DM from a driver who I've never talked to before saying keep up the good work!

To show the fact most staff are disillusioned with VTEC they're happy to share their info with me every morning so I can tweet out shortforms and defects which VTEC try not to make easy to find. Someone even emailed me a copy of the VTEC 2016 business plan. I get sent copies of the staff newsletters and they really are as patronising to their staff as they are to passengers.

Although I don't think I've had any impact on what has happened (VTEC messed it up all themselves) but a number of staff have thanked me by DM for standing by them when things had started to get bad and expose the mess that was VTEC.

A common view is that VTEC are worse than NXEC because although NXEC were cost cutting they were upfront to their staff about it. VTEC are patronising and still internally promote every cutback as an improvement.

LNER need to hit the ground running. If they start with the right attitude and keep the staff on side they'll do their best to make it work.

Some trains are already losing bits of their branding. On one of the trains I was travelling on Sunday already had the Azuma ads removed as well as the annoying 'Go on give us a smile' on the toilet mirror. The balloon was still there though. Wonder if that'll also get removed or will me have LNER branded hot air balloons

Just received this DM: Chair of LNER will be Robin Gisby (no idea who that is though)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Gisby was Head of Operations at NR for a while, before that Route Director post Hatfield for RT/ NR. Various other high class jobs , .....Director Freight and WCML in the troubled times.

Good underpinning knowledge shall we say.

 

[cholsey-choose]

A common view is that VTEC are worse than NXEC because although NXEC were cost cutting they were upfront to their staff about it. VTEC are patronising and still internally promote every cutback as an improvement.

I always find this to be a particular issue with ambitious private company managers. Nobody likes it when you say "look, we know this sucks, but it's the least worst option" but you at least get some respect for being honest, and people will grudgingly understand.

 

[3141]

I recollect that Robin Gisby was always prepared to apologise over high profile problems, such as when major possessions overran and there was no effective back-up plan, and to admit that NR had fallen short. I think he'd be likely to promote a customer-focussed approach.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Robin Gisby is an Advisor to SNC-Lavalin, and therefore probably part of the Operator of Last Resort team which has been gearing up for the change for 6 months.
As far as I can see he has never worked for a TOC.
He had several posts in Railtrack and NR, lastly as Managing Director until 2015.
At one time I seem to remember he was remarked as the only true engineer on the Railtrack board.
If you google him, you quickly find press items on his large bonus awarded shorty after the King's Cross engineering overrun in 2014.
But I think he's considered one of the good guys, and certainly knows his ECML.
He could easily lead a joint LNER/NR East Coast Partnership.
The key LNER appointment will be the MD - more likely to be a TOC person I think.
This comes hard on the heels of Andrew Haines being appointed Chief Exec of Network Rail.

 

[HH]

I hear that two consultancy firms will bag most of the senior jobs, Atkins (now SNC-Lavalin) being one of them. Have a feeling Aecom was the other. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean that the people they supply are their normal staff...

 

[AndrewE]

A statement one could equally apply to BR in the 1990s. Especially when loco-hauled stock got replaced by Sprinters.

Do you actually remember the 1990s? In general I think class 150s and (if you were unlucky) Pacers replaced old DMU's - and hourly loco-hauled services between Liverpool and Newcastle were replaced by 3 Sprinters an hour. I think some L/H services in the south (the Bristol - Weymouth boat train, and London - Salisbury - Exeter services) sadly went that way too but there weren't many surviving L/H routes by then anyway. Cardiff - Crewe (or Manchester?) and some Scottish services...

 

[pt_mad]

He could easily lead a joint LNER/NR East Coast Partnership.
The key LNER appointment will be the MD - more likely to be a TOC person I think.
This comes hard on the heels of Andrew Haines being appointed Chief Exec of Network Rail.

The thing is, this partnership might be all well and good while the East Coast franchise is run by the DFT appointed consultants. And it would essentially be a nationalised TOC and nationalised track.

And it may be a success. Bit if they then attempt to re-let this after say 2 or 3 years in this new form who's to say the same mistakes won't occur again? Expect next time it will likely be 'combining track and train'. It seems like it could be a dangerous game setting up this East Coast Partnership before the East Coast train operation itself is back on track.

Surely the priority should be returning the soon to be LNER to a success and putting g this East Coast Partnership back until that is rectified?

 

[The Ham]

The thing is, this partnership might be all well and good while the East Coast franchise is run by the DFT appointed consultants. And it would essentially be a nationalised TOC and nationalised track.

And it may be a success. Bit if they then attempt to re-let this after say 2 or 3 years in this new form who's to say the same mistakes won't occur again? Expect next time it will likely be 'combining track and train'. It seems like it could be a dangerous game setting up this East Coast Partnership before the East Coast train operation itself is back on track.

Surely the priority should be returning the soon to be LNER to a success and putting g this East Coast Partnership back until that is rectified?

Which is why I suggested that it maybe beneficial to keep it as a DfT run operation until after HS2 phase two opens. As you may otherwise only have a single franchise before that significantly changed the nature of the East Coast Franchise. Even phase 1 could impact on travel to Scotland and so it could be better just to do nothing with regards to reletting it.

 

[och aye]

The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust must have been getting a lot of extra traffic to their website via: www.lner.co.uk since last weeks announcement.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust must have been getting a lot of extra traffic to their website via: www.lner.co.uk since last weeks announcement.

A link from the front page of their website to the new LNER TOC would probably not go amiss!

(There's also a strangely unfinished website, or more accurately solitary webpage, which sits at www.lnerailway.com !)

 

[Joe Paxton]

For what it's worth, I have received this email from Virgin Trains (West Coast) - it had the subject title of "Virgin Trains East Coast update":

Hi,

On 16th May it was announced that on the 24 June 2018 the East Coast Main Line will no longer be operated by our sister company Virgin Trains East Coast. From that date the LNER (London North Eastern Railway) will take over, carrying on all their hard work. As you can imagine, we’re all disappointed with the decision.

Just to reassure you that our West Coast services are completely unaffected by the decision. Your travel plans won’t be impacted or amended by this news.

We’re obviously sorry to see our East-Side twin go, but are looking forward to continuing to serve you. So, from all of us, thank you for choosing to travel with Virgin Trains.

The Virgin Trains West Coast Team

The whole East Coast escapade can't have done the Virgin Trains brand much good.

 

[Shoeburysam]

Apologies if I missed it, but why LNER rather than just good old 'East Coast' again?!

LNER is old East Coast! Flying Scotsman!! Mallard!!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Branson took the money from the CCGs and offshored it. This is money that was meant to help sick children. What sort of scumbag does that?

One whose brand has been tainted and still thinks his brand is undamaged, yet has utter contempt for their own nation. With any luck he'll lose his other trainset too as its only a matter of time.

 

[Agent_Squash]

One whose brand has been tainted and still thinks his brand is undamaged, yet has utter contempt for their own nation. With any luck he'll lose his other trainset too as its only a matter of time.

I know Branson bashing is an excellent sport, but supporting Remain doesn’t mean he has ‘utter contempt’ for the nation.

 

[Andyh82]

The @Virgin_TrainsEC account is just the old East Coast account renamed. (if you notice the current @eastcoastuk it's not the original account it's a placeholder to tell people of the new account). That means you can find Tweets that look like they're from Virgin talking about all the benefits of East Coast Rewards. You won't find any tweets talking about the benefits of Nectar, they tried it once and they got such a negative reply they deleted the Tweet (it was posted and deleted so quickly I never even seen their Tweet so they can't blame me, someone else told me about it).

LNER need to hit the ground running. If they start with the right attitude and keep the staff on side they'll do their best to make it work.

I assume you are expecting LNERewards to be launched, or alternatively you could have neither Nectar nor Rewards.

Regarding hitting the ground running, I expect within a week there will be the usual infrastructure failure causing major delays, some cancellations due to more trains than usual needing repairs, and in the summer months issues with faulty air conditioning and LNER will just be as disliked as all the other operators, although I expect the pro Nationalisation people with let them off a bit more, and everyone else won’t be able to demand they lose the franchise every five minutes.

It’ll be interesting what happens with the marketing, particularly on social media, as we seem to be going from one extreme to another extreme overnight, from the overly young chatty meme posting Virgin style to a style harking back to a time most people can’t actually remember. I know the LNER style will be popular with enthusiasts, but then I also know that young students and twenty somethings make up a lot of the leisure passengers who probably like the Virgin style.

 

[47802]

I assume you are expecting LNERewards to be launched, or alternatively you could have neither Nectar nor Rewards.

Regarding hitting the ground running, I expect within a week there will be the usual infrastructure failure causing major delays, some cancellations due to more trains than usual needing repairs, and in the summer months issues with faulty air conditioning and LNER will just be as disliked as all the other operators, although I expect the pro Nationalisation people with let them off a bit more, and everyone else won’t be able to demand they lose the franchise every five minutes.

It’ll be interesting what happens with the marketing, particularly on social media, as we seem to be going from one extreme to another extreme overnight, from the overly young chatty meme posting Virgin style to a style harking back to a time most people can’t actually remember. I know the LNER style will be popular with enthusiasts, but then I also know that young students and twenty somethings make up a lot of the leisure passengers who probably like the Virgin style.

If LNER come with some cheaper advance fares, which seemed to be noticeably less cheap under Virgin than East Coast, I suspect they wont give a monkeys about Virgin Style, not that there anything good about Virgin style, you only have to look at the interior of Voyager and a Pendolino and the exterior of a IC225 set to see that Virgin Style is Utter Garbage.

In fact the main thing you can say Virgin Business in General is its all marketing Bulls**t and not much substance, In fact there was only ever 2 good things about Virgin Trains which were generally in the early days, and that was using the D9000 on various scheduled services, and their preference for Open Stations.

 

[Worldwide]

A link from the front page of their website to the new LNER TOC would probably not go amiss!

(There's also a strangely unfinished website, or more accurately solitary webpage, which sits at www.lnerailway.com !)

I wonder if VTWC staff will loose there free travel on the 24th June.

 

[theironroad]

I wonder if VTWC staff will loose there free travel on the 24th June.

I guess you mean free travel for vtwc staff on VTEC?

If so, if 24/6 is there date for TUPE then yes they will.

Swt staff lost all free travel on EMT and the limited free travel on VTEC the day the franchise changed hands.

 

[Worldwide]

I guess you mean free travel for vtwc staff on VTEC?

If so, if 24/6 is there date for TUPE then yes they will.

Swt staff lost all free travel on EMT and the limited free travel on VTEC the day the franchise changed hands.

Yes sorry that’s what I meant, thanks for confirming that makes sense. I wasn’t sure if an agreement was in place for a period of time after the transfer.

 

[Bornin1980s]

For what it's worth, I have received this email from Virgin Trains (West Coast) - it had the subject title of "Virgin Trains East Coast update":




The whole East Coast escapade can't have done the Virgin Trains brand much good.

Agreed, the VTEC derived colours look dreadful on a Pendolino, even one with a moustache!

 

[SaveECRewards]

I assume you are expecting LNERewards to be launched, or alternatively you could have neither Nectar nor Rewards.

Regarding hitting the ground running, I expect within a week there will be the usual infrastructure failure causing major delays, some cancellations due to more trains than usual needing repairs, and in the summer months issues with faulty air conditioning and LNER will just be as disliked as all the other operators, although I expect the pro Nationalisation people with let them off a bit more, and everyone else won’t be able to demand they lose the franchise every five minutes.

It’ll be interesting what happens with the marketing, particularly on social media, as we seem to be going from one extreme to another extreme overnight, from the overly young chatty meme posting Virgin style to a style harking back to a time most people can’t actually remember. I know the LNER style will be popular with enthusiasts, but then I also know that young students and twenty somethings make up a lot of the leisure passengers who probably like the Virgin style.

I've said many times for this new franchise Rewards isn't their first priority (although you never know they may surprise us). VTEC had inherited an excellent Rewards scheme that they could have just kept running, tweaking it a little if they found it too generous. LNER doesn't have anything. East Coast carried on the NXEC loyalty scheme (escape) initially until they launched their own.

Getting rid of Nectar would lose us nothing. If you want Nectar points you should be booking with FirstGroup (points on all tickets, not just their own). If LNER signs a contract with Nectar it might stop them being able to launch their own loyalty scheme in the future.

Priorities will be seeing if there's ways to improve addressing the maintenance issues which affect accessible toilets and catering. The aircon issues are more complex and unfortunately they're likely to have a number of failures.

I was just finishing school around privatisation (1996). If someone had asked me whether I'd have wanted Virgin to run the ECML I would have assumed it was the best option. But in the end we got GNER and most of us got to remember it fondly and when I travelled XC or WC I was always glad that we did end up with GNER. LNER can be the same. People seem to have quickly seen through the Virgin style. I think VTEC went too over the top pushing the Virgin brand, being more irritating in this regard to other Virgin companies but behind all the 'awesome' things were slipping and people were seeing this.

Just written a blog about our relationship with VTEC. Remember there was a time when we got on well with them until things started to decline last year. https://saveecrewards.co.uk/blog/goodbye-vtec

 

[Goldfish62]

I always find this to be a particular issue with ambitious private company managers. Nobody likes it when you say "look, we know this sucks, but it's the least worst option" but you at least get some respect for being honest, and people will grudgingly understand.

Unfortunately, from my own experience such attitudes are far from confined to the private sector these days

 

[theironroad]

Yes sorry that’s what I meant, thanks for confirming that makes sense. I wasn’t sure if an agreement was in place for a period of time after the transfer.

That's what normally happens during changeovers, I don't know if any temporary deal has been done as obviously this will all have come at short notice for VTEC staff.

 

[^BG]

That's what normally happens during changeovers, I don't know if any temporary deal has been done as obviously this will all have come at short notice for VTEC staff.

No temporary deal. Free travel on VTWC and EMT ends the moment the franchise changes hands. No real guarantee yet on whether the other travel benefits for VTEC staff will continue, i.e. free travel on all VTEC services.

 

[SaveECRewards]

No temporary deal. Free travel on VTWC and EMT ends the moment the franchise changes hands. No real guarantee yet on whether the other travel benefits for VTEC staff will continue, i.e. free travel on all VTEC services.

You should be OK with free travel on your own services I know that benefit has been there since at least GNER days. I've not looked at other TOCs but I think it's standard.

You'll presumably lose access to Virgin Tribe but not sure what that gets you. Hopefully you'll keep the 50% off friends and family discount. I've been told East Coast used to offer that too. I guess it'll be the London staff who'll miss the VTWL and EMT travel the most.

 

[^BG]

You should be OK with free travel on your own services I know that benefit has been there since at least GNER days. I've not looked at other TOCs but I think it's standard.

You'll presumably lose access to Virgin Tribe but not sure what that gets you. Hopefully you'll keep the 50% off friends and family discount. I've been told East Coast used to offer that too. I guess it'll be the London staff who'll miss the VTWL and EMT travel the most.

Free travel is the only benefit I use, so that's good with me!

Ah yes, I forgot about Tribe...that goes as well, but I never had access to that in the first place so I'm not bothered. There was also free Duty/Residential travel on Northern (between YRK-LDS) and on GTR for somewhere (don't remember where) which I would also assume would stay. I wonder how many VTEC staff actually used VTWC or EMT for anything other than leisure.