Virgin Trains East Coast price rise and changes to off peak from September 4th

[Haywain]

While it has been expanded at VTEC and taken up by no other TOCs, I'm not sure we can link the current franchisee with cash flow issues in this basis because DOR started doing this.

Indeed, and the justification behind it was to better compete with airlines on the Tyneside and Edinburgh flows.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The restriction times on VTEC-priced SVR tickets from Kings Cross will remain unchanged, but from September they will apply to both outward and return portions. Currently return portions of these tickets have no time restrictions.

If you take the EDB-KGX Off Peak Return (SVR) at £211.10, it is currently restricted to KGX arrivals after 1008 (restriction 1E). There is no return restriction.
You'd think this was the fare The Scotsman was interested in.
If you now apply the same restrictions on the return leg, ie arrivals at EDB, there is still no afternoon restriction from KGX.
The same applies to the equivalent fares from Newcastle and Leeds (restriction 1D).
So what's the explanation for longer SVR afternoon restrictions?

 

[OwlMan]

If you go to NRES Ticket Validity Finder and input appropiate dates it will give you the appropiate version http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/TicketAndValidityFinder.aspx

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed, and the justification behind it was to better compete with airlines on the Tyneside and Edinburgh flows.

But they do then seem to have rather lost sight of that by being often more expensive on those same flows (AP wise anyway)?

 

[Haywain]

Thanks. Do you have a link to that, because The Scotsman seem to be saying they're extending it to 3pm-7pm, which is the same as the SSR?

If you take the EDB-KGX Off Peak Return (SVR) at £211.10, it is currently restricted to KGX arrivals after 1008 (restriction 1E). There is no return restriction.
You'd think this was the fare The Scotsman was interested in.
If you now apply the same restrictions on the return leg, ie arrivals at EDB, there is still no afternoon restriction from KGX.
The same applies to the equivalent fares from Newcastle and Leeds (restriction 1D).
So what's the explanation for longer SVR afternoon restrictions?

The Scotsman have got it wrong. But it's a newspaper, so why should anything else be expected?

If you go to NRES Ticket Validity Finder and input appropiate dates it will give you the appropiate version http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/TicketAndValidityFinder.aspx

Correct (restriction codes 1D and 1E are relevant), and trying to book the ticket through a website (such as the VTEC website) will show it being offered in accordance with the restrictions I have detailed.

But they do then seem to have rather lost sight of that by being often more expensive on those same flows (AP wise anyway)?

I can assure you that VTEC have not lost sight of the need to complete with the airlines.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The change is to Off Peak fares to and from London and Stevenage where in future the return portions, which are currently unrestricted, will have the same restrictions as the outward portion.

That's not the case then, as the afternoon restrictions are new.
Thanks to Owlman for the NRE link, I can see the new restrictions now.

 

[paul1609]

Do you really have any evidence that this happens on a widespread scale? .

yes, ask any SWT guard about the number of advance tickets from the Portsmouth Line to Peterborough valid at Peak Times because of the Network Rule.

 

[Haywain]

That's not the case then, as the afternoon restrictions are new.
Thanks to Owlman for the NRE link, I can see the new restrictions now.

Nonsense! Read the current version of the restrictions and you will see that outward portions currently have an afternoon restriction - something that has been in place for at least 6 years.

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[richardderby]

RMT produced a staff briefing explaning this, which can be found at the bottom of this page.
http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/virgin-price-hike-on-east-coast/

several other changes mentioned, including 3% increase in 1st class fares.

RMT also balloting VTEC staff, and result should be announced tommorow,

 

[ainsworth74]

They have to give seven days notice correct? So the first date there could be strike action would be 16 August?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Nonsense! Read the current version of the restrictions and you will see that outward portions currently have an afternoon restriction - something that has been in place for at least 6 years.

I must be being thick then. Sorry for the trouble caused.
Not my regular route.

 

[Paul Kelly]

RMT produced a staff briefing explaning this, which can be found at the bottom of this page.
http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/virgin-price-hike-on-east-coast/

Interesting - quoting from that article:

Although the increase starts from 4th September, Virgin have had to accept that passengers cannot be ‘excessed’ immediately as tickets are valid for a month and customers could be travelling on tickets sold using the old conditions until October 2nd.

If I'm thinking straight, surely it's a lot longer than that, given that tickets can be purchased up to a year in advance and that any tickets purchased before yesterday for travel on or after 4th September will still have had the "old" restrictions applying.

You'd think it might have been better for VTEC to change the restriction code - given that it's now printed on tickets, that should make it clear which tickets the old restrictions apply to and which ones the new ones apply to.

 

[Starmill]

yes, ask any SWT guard about the number of advance tickets from the Portsmouth Line to Peterborough valid at Peak Times because of the Network Rule.

They're valid at the time of the train that they're reserved on. Is the network area rule actually relevant to Advance tickets at all? What's more, with the exception of the 2319 to Guildford, every single train from Portsmouth Harbour via Haslemere is reservable, so SWT can restrict availability of tickets and passengers must needs travel on the reserved train to Waterloo.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Thanks Haywain. I don't have an issue with this- a KGX-NCL and NCL-KGX ticket should have the same restrictions, really.

 

[Starmill]

Personally I think it's hilarious that they are going to try and tell people paying £200 for an Off-Peak return from Darlington to London that they will have to catch a later, more crowded train home or pay even more! It's particularly amusing that an Off-Peak Return from Penrith to London is about half the price. My concern is that given this choice people would either switch to the Super Off-Peak or just choose another mode.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

I still can't find a press release for this. Have I got it right that return portions of SVR tickets won't be valid from KGX on 16:00 - 17:30 northbound in line with the Out portion?

Are they wanting me to switch to Grand Central?

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[Haywain]

I still can't find a press release for this. Have I got it right that return portions of SVR tickets won't be valid from KGX on 16:00 - 17:30 northbound in line with the Out portion?

Are they wanting me to switch to Grand Central?

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Has there been a press release? I have no idea. But yes, you do seem to be getting to grips with what is changing.

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[Tetchytyke]

Stagecoach clearly believe that they have enough of a captive audience that they can increase fares without penalty. I assume it'll be in combination with targeted advance fares so that people don't notice for just long enough that they get the additional revenue.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm finding it interesting just how competitive on price BA are being now. I think BA smell blood. Willie Walsh and Alex Cruz are many things but they're not fools. They didn't go after DOR like this.

 

[transmanche]

Are they wanting me to switch to Grand Central?

I've already jumped ship. Loss of the rewards scheme, loss of the 10% online booking discount, loss of online-only 'half-price' single Super Off-Peak tickets, lack of reasonably-priced Advance tickets (even on the 22:00 departure from London)... and so on.

 

[Starmill]

£49 air fares is just scary. I can't even see any Newcastle <> King's Cross tickets for less than £51 even weeks ahead.

 

[yorkie]

I still can't find a press release for this. Have I got it right that return portions of SVR tickets won't be valid from KGX on 16:00 - 17:30 northbound in line with the Out portion?

Are they wanting me to switch to Grand Central?

They are hoping people will pay higher fares, so no.

However if enough people switch to other modes or operators, then they may be forced to re-think.

I am not convinced, as many business passengers will pay almost anything.

But it's worth a try!

 

[RochdalePioneers]

There is a tipping point on fares even on business. I travel Darlington- London about 30 times a year and usually on off peak tickets. When I have to travel earlier in the morning (on the 07:31 for example) the full fare trains are already half empty so the tipping point clearly exists for others as well

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[yorksrob]

I've already jumped ship. Loss of the rewards scheme, loss of the 10% online booking discount, loss of online-only 'half-price' single Super Off-Peak tickets, lack of reasonably-priced Advance tickets (even on the 22:00 departure from London)... and so on.

Yes, the paucity of cheapish fares, even on late evening services out of the Cross on weekdays is noticeable.

This latest re-franchising is beginning to look more and more like a fiasco.

 

[Paul Duck]

There is a tipping point on fares even on business. I travel Darlington- London about 30 times a year and usually on off peak tickets. When I have to travel earlier in the morning (on the 07:31 for example) the full fare trains are already half empty so the tipping point clearly exists for others as well

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Have you tried splitting your ticket at Retford on the 0731 from Darlington to Kings Cross? Even for tomorrow morning it saves 70 pound. Always a good split when customers ask for advance tickets on the 0701 from Eaglescliffe to Kings Cross

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Thanks for the tip - works for one way at least - return trains don't stop there (happily) but if on an advance on the way back it would work

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[Envy123]

All these fare increases really make me rethink about moving as far north as Grantham or Newark. One of those days, VTEC's fare increases will completely wipe out any mortgage savings.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Personally I think it's hilarious that they are going to try and tell people paying £200 for an Off-Peak return from Darlington to London that they will have to catch a later, more crowded train home or pay even more! It's particularly amusing that an Off-Peak Return from Penrith to London is about half the price. My concern is that given this choice people would either switch to the Super Off-Peak or just choose another mode.

Isn't the West Coast Off Peak equilivent to the East Coast Super Off Peak?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have you tried splitting your ticket at Retford on the 0731 from Darlington to Kings Cross? Even for tomorrow morning it saves 70 pound. Always a good split when customers ask for advance tickets on the 0701 from Eaglescliffe to Kings Cross

Very quiet train north of York at least.

 

[westv]

All these fare increases really make me rethink about moving as far north as Grantham or Newark. One of those days, VTEC's fare increases will completely wipe out any mortgage savings.

Hopefully there's a maximum of 6 more years more commuting left for me.

 

[Envy123]

Hopefully there's a maximum of 6 more years more commuting left for me.

Well, I'll be commuting for at least 2 decades, and there's a risk that I may be paying more per month for my rail ticket and mortgage if this continues (compared to me being in a commuter town). Not to mention the potential mental burnout from commuting 3 hours each way.

Maybe having a small house or bungalow in Hertfordshire or Bedfordshire isn't sure a bad idea after all for a starter home...

 

[westv]

The new off peak restriction isn't only for VTEC fares.
Currently an off peak return from London to Hull is £162 leaving Friday and returning any train Monday morning.
From September the return will exclude both the 06:26 Hull Trains departure from Hull and the 07:00 VTEC departure.
It'll will cost £199 - a 23% increase for anybody who uses that ticket!

As it is my Friday London to Hull AP ticket appears to have gone up 27%!
Yes, I know it unregulated.

Edit: Actually I think the new return fare is £212 - which appears to be the same price as two singles.