Virgin Trains proposed Virgin Value Class

[AlistairCowell]

In the late 1990s, Virgin Trains was initially planning to have three classes for passengers for the then new Voyager and Pendolino trains, which
they were in the drawing board at the time. There were going to be First Class (Club Class in Voyagers), Standard Class, and a cheap no-frills class
which was to be termed as "Virgin Value" Class.

A Virgin Value Class would have 2+3 seating, as used on suburban trains, and this would be situated on a non-first class driving vehicle. But I'm
now sure if they would have tables despite 2+3 seating or have an aircraft style seating layout. Fortunately, this proposed Virgin Value Class was
abandoned in late 1999 and would only have First and Standard classes.

The abandonment of the proposed three classes was mentioned in a Virgin Trains brochure "West Coast - The Third Dawn".

Imagine travelling on Virgin Value Class onboard a four-car Class 220 on a long cross-country journey (like Edinburgh to Bristol), had Virgin Value
Class came into fruition?

 

[hexagon789]

In the late 1990s, Virgin Trains was initially planning to have three classes for passengers for the then new Voyager and Pendolino trains, which
they were in the drawing board at the time. There were going to be First Class (Club Class in Voyagers), Standard Class, and a cheap no-frills class
which was to be termed as "Virgin Value" Class.

A Virgin Value Class would have 2+3 seating, as used on suburban trains, and this would be situated on a non-first class driving vehicle. But I'm
now sure if they would have tables despite 2+3 seating or have an aircraft style seating layout. Fortunately, this proposed Virgin Value Class was
abandoned in late 1999 and would only have First and Standard classes.

The abandonment of the proposed three classes was mentioned in a Virgin Trains brochure "West Coast - The Third Dawn".

Imagine travelling on Virgin Value Class onboard a four-car Class 220 on a long cross-country journey (like Edinburgh to Bristol), had Virgin Value
Class came into fruition?

Difficult to say exactly given it never happened, but probably to cram as many seats as possible into the already limited confines of a 125mph driving car it would've been all airline seating with seat-back drop down tables would be my guess.

And I think it's very fortunate it never happened, treating trains as fully akin to airliners in terms of interior layout, travel class and catering doesn't work especially well in many respects. Some elements can and do work, but if you attempt 100% parity you lose some of the benefits/pleasures of rail travel over air travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Difficult to say exactly given it never happened, but probably to cram as many seats as possible into the already limited confines of a 125mph driving car it would've been all airline seating with seat-back drop down tables would be my guess.

I'm sure I recall reading that the layout that is presently in coach A of Voyagers is the one it would have been, which is all airline except one table at one end to reverse the direction, and is I believe tighter than other coaches. Just with 3+2 seating instead.

 

[Djgr]

I think Chris Green came in and put a stop to this nonsense.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm sure I recall reading that the layout that is presently in coach A of Voyagers is the one it would have been, which is all airline except one table at one end to reverse the direction, and is I believe tighter than other coaches. Just with 3+2 seating instead.

So one table bay then.

 

[AngusH]

Is it known whether a standard ticket holder would have had to travel in these value seats, with 2+2 as a paid upgrade?

or would they be considered a lower grade, below standard?

 

[hexagon789]

Is it known whether a standard ticket holder would have had to travel in these value seats, with 2+2 as a paid upgrade?

or would they be considered a lower grade, below standard?

Lower grade I'd have thought. Given it was one slightly less capacious carriage out of the train set, Standard Class would still have had the most seats so presumably Value would've had limited, pre-booked advance only tickets - i.e. no walk-ups or only limited ones.

 

[AngusH]

Ah yes, that would make sense.

It seems like it would probably have been about as disconnected from the larger railway network as is possible.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Don't forget that the first Midland Main Line franchise did have three classes, but the opposite of the Virgin proposal - Premier, First and Standard.

 

[hexagon789]

Don't forget that the first Midland Main Line franchise did have three classes, but the opposite of the Virgin proposal - Premier, First and Standard.

Though the first two were pretty much the same as Eurostar's Business Premier/Standard Premier with both using the first class seating areas but the difference being price and catering service, whereas Virgin's proposal had a different seating arrangement for each class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though the first two were pretty much the same as Eurostar's Business Premier/Standard Premier with both using the first class seating areas but the difference being price and catering service, whereas Virgin's proposal had a different seating arrangement for each class.

Avanti is also planning a "two first classes" type arrangement.

 

[hexagon789]

Avanti is also planning a "two first classes" type arrangement.

Very true, but my understanding is they will both share the current first class coaches? Though I can't remember if it was stated that each class would be segregated into specific coaches or seats used as required?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very true, but my understanding is they will both share the current first class coaches? Though I can't remember if it was stated that each class would be segregated into specific coaches or seats used as required?

I think it'll be more like Weekend First used to be, with dedicated "full service" and "basic service" coaches. Or basically the same as Eurostar.

 

[Starmill]

And I think it's very fortunate it never happened, treating trains as fully akin to airliners in terms of interior layout, travel class and catering doesn't work especially well in many respects.

While this is true in principle there's a serious lack of decent budget rail options in this country. In Spain, there are not one not two but three services launching. Now you can argue that there's no point in competition, and broadly speaking I do. But if we're going to have it, having something beyond just West Midlands Trains that aims to compete with Megabus would be helpful. Grand Central and Northern have made vague efforts in this area but neither are principally trying to be 'low cost'.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I think it'll be more like Weekend First used to be, with dedicated "full service" and "basic service" coaches. Or basically the same as Eurostar.

In the MML scheme, tickets for premier were only for journeys entirely on MML and sold by them. Standard class tickets could be upgraded to first (even in the evening peak) for £5 or £10, and this could be done as soon as the train was boarding, sitting in any seat that wasn't reserved (or occupied). This did tend to alienate holders of long distance first class tickets, who felt that having paid a great deal for their tickets they were not getting the top service. It also destroyed the market for first class season tickets; holders of these thought the extra expense was worthwhile because, if they had work where there home journey time was not predictable, they could at least get a seat a few minutes before departure time, but under the new plan they found all the seats already occupied by passengers upgrading.
But that was 20 years ago, so I expect any lessons have been forgotten. But, by having a class not available elsewhere, Avanti will be sure of 100% revenue allocation! May be that's the agenda.

 

[edwin_m]

In the MML scheme, tickets for premier were only for journeys entirely on MML and sold by them.

I seem to recall they were the same price as the normal First Class Anytime tickets, but only valid on MML. So the revenue they didn't give away to ORCATs paid for the freebies.

 

[Taunton]

I believe the thing that did in this idea for three classes is each would need to have an accessible WC, so for three coaches in a 4-car Voyager you lose a notable proportion of the seating.

More generally, the issue with more than two classes (or even two) is that demand is so variable through the day/week, such that one or more of the classes is much of the time wasted in a fixed-formation set. This is readily seen even today by routes where first class has little or no usage outside business peaks (sometimes not even then), and the space just runs as empty stock. The same goes for other "dedicated" ideas, such as children's carriages.

Attempts to put additional passengers in first class hacks off the remaining first class passengers, especially if it's a bit of a successful bargain and those who have paid first class fares are now sat 4 to a table while back in standard they could actually have more room to spread out. It also leads to those who might pay first class anyway just paying standard fares and working out how to get head of the line for the first class accommodation, reducing revenue further.

 

[superjohn]

I believe the thing that did in this idea for three classes is each would need to have an accessible WC, so for three coaches in a 4-car Voyager you lose a notable proportion of the seating.

Which is exactly what happened. Every toilet in the Voyagers is accessible and this uses a lot of space.

 

[WesternLancer]

Which is exactly what happened. Every toilet in the Voyagers is accessible and this uses a lot of space.

Interesting, but not in a meridian - so maybe lessons learned. Meridian interior I have always thought better designed than Voyager for essentailly the same train

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Which is exactly what happened. Every toilet in the Voyagers is accessible and this uses a lot of space.

Yes, exactly - a friend of a friend worked for Bombardier when they were building the Voyagers and confirmed that the number of accessible toilets was due to the intended three-class design. I believe they later conceded that they/Virgin had misread the regulations.

 

[hexagon789]

While this is true in principle there's a serious lack of decent budget rail options in this country. In Spain, there are not one not two but three services launching. Now you can argue that there's no point in competition, and broadly speaking I do. But if we're going to have it, having something beyond just West Midlands Trains that aims to compete with Megabus would be helpful. Grand Central and Northern have made vague efforts in this area but neither are principally trying to be 'low cost'.

But 2+3 seating in the already cramped confines of GB loading guage coupled with the tapered shape of a Voyager...

Bit squished to say the least.

I think it'll be more like Weekend First used to be, with dedicated "full service" and "basic service" coaches. Or basically the same as Eurostar.

Ah, that actually rings a bell now, so I think I have read that but since forgotten

I believe the thing that did in this idea for three classes is each would need to have an accessible WC, so for three coaches in a 4-car Voyager you lose a notable proportion of the seating.

It's a smallish amount, 2 seats if you compare Voyager intermediate cars to Meridian ones based on present seating plans; the difference was greater originally (the Voyagers have had more seats put in and the Meridians have had two removed).

 

[Starmill]

But 2+3 seating in the already cramped confines of GB loading guage coupled with the tapered shape of a Voyager...

Is it even physically possible? Probably not. Even OUIGO doesn't go that far. I would expect the measures to be focused on lowering costs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it even physically possible? Probably not. Even OUIGO doesn't go that far. I would expect the measures to be focused on lowering costs.

Given that there are other 23/24m vehicles with 3+2 seating e.g. Class 323 and some of the new Aventras, I'd venture it's possible - but I agree it would be awful!

 

[DB]

Interesting, but not in a meridian - so maybe lessons learned. Meridian interior I have always thought better designed than Voyager for essentailly the same train

THe Meridian interior corrects a good few of the mistakes which were made with the Voyagers!

 

[Bletchleyite]

THe Meridian interior corrects a good few of the mistakes which were made with the Voyagers!

And makes some of its own - those single-piece seats are horribly claustrophobic even if they are comfortable!

 

[hexagon789]

Is it even physically possible? Probably not. Even OUIGO doesn't go that far. I would expect the measures to be focused on lowering costs.

Surely it must've been at least vaguely checked out dimensionally for it to have been seriously considered at one point by Virgin?

 

[trebor79]

Yes, exactly - a friend of a friend worked for Bombardier when they were building the Voyagers and confirmed that the number of accessible toilets was due to the intended three-class design. I believe they later conceded that they/Virgin had misread the regulations.

That sounds right, there is/was certainly other 2 class stock with the accessible toilet only provided in one class. Provided it can be reached in a wheelchair from the accessible seating are I don't suppose it matter which "class" of carriage the throne is in?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sounds right, there is/was certainly other 2 class stock with the accessible toilet only provided in one class. Provided it can be reached in a wheelchair from the accessible seating are I don't suppose it matter which "class" of carriage the throne is in?

Is this something that has changed between the UK RVAR and the EU's PRM-TSI? The latter certainly does some things different to the former, some stricter and some seemingly less strict.

 

[edwin_m]

Given that there are other 23/24m vehicles with 3+2 seating e.g. Class 323 and some of the new Aventras, I'd venture it's possible - but I agree it would be awful!

A 323 doesn't have a tilt profile and I suspect the side walls of the body are a bit thinner as well.

Surely it must've been at least vaguely checked out dimensionally for it to have been seriously considered at one point by Virgin?

Looking at some of the things that people thought were possible early in the privatisation process, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody checked - or someone did but was ignored when they tried to raise a concern.

 

[Devonian]

It's fascinating to discover that Virgin Value was supposed to be an entire class, not just a ticket type.

Speaking of other 'three class' attempts, may I offer an honorable mention of 'Silver Standard' class carriages on Intercity in the '90s, for holders of full-price standard tickets only with the benefits of antimacassars and free tea/coffee if I remember correctly?

While this is true in principle there's a serious lack of decent budget rail options in this country ... having something beyond just West Midlands Trains that aims to compete with Megabus would be helpful

Isn't that what First's East Coast Trains are aiming for? And what about the erstwhile 'Megatrain' which was originally intended to corral passengers "in a designated area of the train" - which sounds very much like another class in all but name. Was Megatrain discontinued simply because Stagecoach lost all its franchises, or was it dead before?