Virgin Trains removes standard class quiet zone; worst intercity TOC in living memory

[Camden]

Two trains today as a passenger:

First train, a "mum", setting quite the example, sat on a table (and I mean sat on top of it, not leaning on it) glaring challengingly at other passengers as she (ridiculously) bobbed her head in time to the rap music blaring out of her mobile telephone.

Second train, a gang of a dozen late teens/early twenties, again music blaring out of a mobile telephone, shouting, swearing and generally being obnoxious (aka "being normal"). Plus, once these passengers had left (and from the gist of the conversation during their hasty depart, I expect not one of them had tickets) I then found I was sat behind the obligatory person wearing leaky headphones.

A quiet coach doesn't fix these things, but it does provide respite for those of us who really are normal and who find this sort of inconsiderate behaviour as obnoxious as it truly is.

 

[bramling]

What a bigoted attitude!!

If it's so bigoted to prefer an environment not filled with the antisocial behaviour of *a minority* of passengers, then quite so. The fact is that *most* people are fully considerate when travelling by train, or behaving in public places. Unfortunately it's the minority who stand out the most by their very behaviour.

 

[fowler9]

If it's so bigoted to prefer an environment not filled with the antisocial behaviour of *a minority* of passengers, then quite so. The fact is that *most* people are fully considerate when travelling by train, or behaving in public places. Unfortunately it's the minority who stand out the most by their very behaviour.

What made you bigoted was the implication that if you couldn't afford first class or could only afford advanced first then you are scum. The implication perhaps that if you don't have money then you are scum and don't know how to behave. Have another look at what you said, sadly in response to me.

And I quote from bramling:-

"Like first class, you can end up paying a lot extra, and still find the carriage filled with scum. (In the case of first class, normally thanks to cheap advance tickets).

Personally I'd like to see *all* train fares massively increased as a way of suppressing demand. You would get rid of a proportion of problem passengers straight away through them simply not being able to afford to pay the fares."

Price the poor off the trains then eh to make sure no scum get on? Do the wealthy not misbehave? I'm giving you enough rope here.

 

[driver_m]

I asked the Train Managers on both my trains today - the same answer, coach G remains labelled as a quiet zone until all of the 9 coach conversions are done and they are then all due to have the signs removed on the same day - for "consistency"

Well that can't be right as I had a look in one of the converted 9 car sets and it has had them removed. (It's not coach g either - h is the quiet one)

 

[ag51ruk]

Well that can't be right as I had a look in one of the converted 9 car sets and it has had them removed. (It's not coach g either - h is the quiet one)

Sorry - meant coach H. I haven't seen one with the stickers removed, both my trains yesterday were 9 coach with coach G converted to F and both still had the internal quiet zone signs.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Some people here have commented "Did British Rail have Quiet Zones" or words to that effect.
At the risk of being pedantic, BR was abolished in 1996 when mobile phones were in their infancy and you had to be really well off to afford a laptop.
You could be listening to a cassette Walkman but that's about it

 

[Hellfire]

Several people have suggested that the difficulty train staff have in enforcing the rules in a quiet coach is a reason for getting rid of them. If you applied that logic to everything else we would soon be in trouble. Does that mean people should be allowed to put their feet on seats because staff might find it difficult to stop them or ignore someone blocking a gangway with luggage for instance?

I think its a real shame this is happening. The fact is the amount of anti-social behaviour seems to be on the increase with many people now completely ignoring reasonable standards of conduct. It's nothing to do with class or health either. I was on an ATW service last month with four people, who looked extremely well heeled, taking too much drink and causing a nuisance.

If train staff cannot enforce the quiet coach, which has plenty of notices on the doors and in the carriage, then are they going to stop people playing noisy musical devices in other carriages which is a by law offence?

As to the suggestion that people pay more for a quiet carriage, why should they? It doesn't cost the TOC any extra to have one apart from a few stickers and a bit of consideration

 

[Senex]

Several people have suggested that the difficulty train staff have in enforcing the rules in a quiet coach is a reason for getting rid of them. If you applied that logic to everything else we would soon be in trouble. Does that mean people should be allowed to put their feet on seats because staff might find it difficult to stop them or ignore someone blocking a gangway with luggage for instance?

I think its a real shame this is happening. The fact is the amount of anti-social behaviour seems to be on the increase with many people now completely ignoring reasonable standards of conduct. It's nothing to do with class or health either. I was on an ATW service last month with four people, who looked extremely well heeled, taking too much drink and causing a nuisance.

If train staff cannot enforce the quiet coach, which has plenty of notices on the doors and in the carriage, then are they going to stop people playing noisy musical devices in other carriages which is a by law offence?

As to the suggestion that people pay more for a quiet carriage, why should they? It doesn't cost the TOC any extra to have one apart from a few stickers and a bit of consideration

Hear, hear to all the above!

 

[work-traveller]

a "mum", setting quite the example, sat on a table (and I mean sat on top of it, not leaning on it) glaring challengingly at other passengers as she (ridiculously) bobbed her head in time to the rap music blaring out of her mobile telephone.

I'm a contrary so 'n so - so I do enjoy rising to the challenge presented by such occasions. To this end I have a few movements of Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance Marches on my phone especially so I can sit with a broad smile on my face whilst competing with these delightful people. Only 'gone into action' a couple of times though as you have to judge the likelihood of becoming a victim of GBH. But on both occasions the person in question stormed off to the vestibule or another carriage with a look of disgust on their face, following which I turn the music off and read my book. Met with appreciation from fellow travellers I'm pleased to say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A quiet coach doesn't fix these things, but it does provide respite for those of us who really are normal and who find this sort of inconsiderate behaviour as obnoxious as it truly is.

In some ways, I find that having the quiet coach almost justifies this kind of behaviour. Yet the Byelaws only give the ability to act against it in the event of it causing a passenger annoyance. It of course always will unless there is no other passenger present, but as those making the noise often look threatening making a complaint is difficult and uncomfortable.

I would therefore propose that...

1. The Byelaw relating to the playing of musical instruments, radios etc out loud should be reworded such that it is an offence if it is "audible to any other passenger, whether this causes annoyance or not", rather than "to the annoyance of any other passenger".

2. Guards, revenue protection staff etc should be briefed to enforce this strictly *without* being asked to do so. A few high-profile prosecutions should help to reduce it. This has shown to be successful in heavily reducing antisocial behaviour on Merseyrail.

3. Signs are placed in *all* coaches of *all* trains stating that playing of music or other audio devices out loud is prohibited, and showing the maximum fine at the time the sign was placed if there is one, in the manner of the "no smoking" and alarm signs.

Then we could return to the idea of *all* coaches being civilised[1], and there being no place on the Railway for loutish behaviour of any kind.

[1] I don't say "quiet", just "civilised". I don't find a mobile phone conversation conducted at a sensible volume at all irritating, nor do I find chatting passengers so, nor happy, well-behaved children as most of them are. It's public transport, all the public are there, this kind of thing is to be expected. However, rudeness and lack of consideration has no place anywhere other than in the private homes of those engaging in it.

 

[Flamingo]

Before you get to the "Strictly enforce without being asked to do so" part, we can't even strictly enforce said passengers paying for a ticket to travel...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Before you get to the "Strictly enforce" part, we can't even strictly enforce said passengers paying for a ticket to travel...

Fair point, though it seems to have worked for Merseyrail by having roving heavies acting as "byelaw squads" with body cameras etc - all a bit Robocop, but functional. Perhaps less practical for IC, but you could mount random sting operations and prosecute using the video evidence every time. People would soon learn, as they have on Merseyrail.

 

[Flamingo]

Fair point, though it seems to have worked for Merseyrail by having roving heavies acting as "byelaw squads" with body cameras etc - all a bit Robocop, but functional. Perhaps less practical for IC, but you could mount random sting operations and prosecute using the video evidence every time. People would soon learn, as they have on Merseyrail.

Won't happen, there would be an outcry on Twitter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tee hee...fGW's Twitter seems particularly full of vitriol, although that said some of the conspirators (FGW Kicked My Cat in particular) can be quite funny as well.

 

[Camden]

Fair point, though it seems to have worked for Merseyrail by having roving heavies acting as "byelaw squads" with body cameras etc - all a bit Robocop, but functional. Perhaps less practical for IC, but you could mount random sting operations and prosecute using the video evidence every time. People would soon learn, as they have on Merseyrail.

The difference in standard of behaviours when I travel is these days stark between Liverpool and other cities. It used to be for all the wrong reasons(!) but now travelling around the city is generally a pleasure, very civil. Not whisper quiet, as some above would seem to have you believe is the alternative, but generally just people minding their own business and keeping their feet off the seats. Manchester, Birmingham and especially London it seems like anti-social behaviour isn't so much endemic as compulsory per journey!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester, Birmingham and especially London it seems like anti-social behaviour isn't so much endemic as compulsory per journey!

Yet in London mainly on National Rail services rather than the Tube for some reason. And commuter services e.g. the south WCML can be quite civilised.

The Southern "round the side" train is an interesting case now Westfield has opened. Those engaging in antisocial behaviour seem largely to be making journeys that take in that particular station as well as Harrow and Wealdstone/Wembley Central (for some reason much more the former than the latter, despite the area around Wembley Central being rather a dump), whereas once you get past there and up the WCML they are as civilised as any LM WCML commuter service, on which as I normally say "all coaches are quiet coaches, and woe betide anyone who doesn't respect that".

TPE West also seems to have more than its fair share of antisocial behaviour, particularly on the Manchester-Preston leg.

 

[Starmill]

[1] I don't say "quiet", just "civilised". I don't find a mobile phone conversation conducted at a sensible volume at all irritating, nor do I find chatting passengers so, nor happy, well-behaved children as most of them are. It's public transport, all the public are there, this kind of thing is to be expected. However, rudeness and lack of consideration has no place anywhere other than in the private homes of those engaging in it.

This problem goes a long way beyond the Railway - it cannot hope to solve it with signs telling people effectively to learn the manners they should already have.

Anyway back to the quiet coach, the other day I travelled in the best and the worst of them in the same day! The best was the Caledoninan Seated Sleeper Coach, where there are no signs and nobody telling you to shush, and no staff whatsoever in evidence for almost the whole journey - but guess what? It was pretty much silent in there The worst was a London Midland 323, where nobody takes any notice whatsoever of the stickers and just talks / plays music / uses the phone like they do in all the rest of the train, and just like you would be able to hear them doing even if they were sat at the other end of the coach...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally I'd like to see *all* train fares massively increased as a way of suppressing demand. You would get rid of a proportion of problem passengers straight away through them simply not being able to afford to pay the fares.

I'd love to see security questionnaires before boarding of all trains so I don't have to share a carriage with people with horrible views like. Scum-free railway

 

[Aldaniti]

The difference in standard of behaviours when I travel is these days stark between Liverpool and other cities. It used to be for all the wrong reasons(!) but now travelling around the city is generally a pleasure, very civil. Not whisper quiet, as some above would seem to have you believe is the alternative, but generally just people minding their own business and keeping their feet off the seats. Manchester, Birmingham and especially London it seems like anti-social behaviour isn't so much endemic as compulsory per journey!

I concur. Liverpool is a great city centre and Liverpudlians help make it great. In complete contrast to its neighbour, Manchester, which I find rather depressing these days. I also find Glaswegians - once, perhaps still, a tough city, to be a friendly and generally respectful lot, and despite the stereotypes that some would have us believe, they'll treat the English just as they would the Scots. Birmingham I try to avoid at all costs. Awful place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This problem goes a long way beyond the Railway - it cannot hope to solve it with signs telling people effectively to learn the manners they should already have.

You'd think that, but all evidence is that the strict Byelaw enforcement does seem to have succeeded at that on Merseyrail to some extent.

 

[All Line Rover]

If customers avoid a "Quiet Carrage" it makes the train seem more packed than it is, which ultimately can detract from everyones experience.

Spreading the load more evenly makes it seem less packed.

You show me a Virgin Pendolino train where every standard class carriage is full except the quiet carriage. I've never seen it. I've been on plenty of trains, however, where Coach A is full and yet there are plenty of seats available in the other standard class carriages.

I can't comment on Flamingo's experience with FGW as I rarely travel with them.

 

[prod_pep]

You show me a Virgin Pendolino train where every standard class carriage is full except the quiet carriage. I've never seen it. I've been on plenty of trains, however, where Coach A is full and yet there are plenty of seats available in the other standard class carriages.

I can't comment on Flamingo's experience with FGW as I rarely travel with them.

Full Pendolinos definitely happen. I remember a London - Liverpool Friday evening train a couple of years back that was absolutely full. The only place to sit was in the vestibule area near the toilet (not exactly pleasant) and there were at least 10 of us, maybe more, there.

I heeded the moral of the story - avoid the Friday evening crowds and choose other days to return from the capital!

 

[All Line Rover]

Full Pendolinos definitely happen. I remember a London - Liverpool Friday evening train a couple of years back that was absolutely full. The only place to sit was in the vestibule area near the toilet (not exactly pleasant) and there were at least 10 of us, maybe more, there.

I heeded the moral of the story - avoid the Friday evening crowds and choose other days to return from the capital!

Of course some Pendolinos are full. I was getting at the suggestion that having a quiet carriage somehow makes the remaining carriages busier (and which is an argument Virgin uses for the removal of the 1ST quiet coach - see other thread), which is utter nonsense on Virgin West Coast.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The internal document stated June for 9 cars and September for 11 cars. Not seen anything since then to change that. Its down to Alsthom to get them removed.

'Internal document'. Says it all. Why aren't Virgin giving passengers advance warning? Why are they allowing passengers to continue to specify the quiet coach when booking first class tickets for September onward, when it will no longer exist?

The information I received about the removal of the STD quiet coach comes from the same source that provided information about the removal of the 1ST quiet coach. I have not been provided with any dates. I have already gathered that the 1ST quiet coach is being removed in early September (which ties in with the completion of the conversion of Coach G on the 9-car Pendolinos) from looking at VT's booking engine. As for the STD quiet coach, I can't see anything just yet. There is nothing to stop Virgin from changing their mind...

 

[prod_pep]

Of course some Pendolinos are full. I was getting at the suggestion that having a quiet carriage somehow makes the remaining carriages busier (and which is an argument Virgin uses for the removal of the 1ST quiet coach - see other thread), which is utter nonsense on Virgin West Coast.

My reply was addressing the "I've been on plenty of trains, however, where Coach A is full and yet there are plenty of seats available in the other standard class carriages" comment which is something I've never noticed personally - the spread on the Liverpool ones at least seems to be relatively even.

The above logic though is obviously flawed - surely if anything the reverse would be true and the quiet coach busier with only the one carriage for those who want a bit of hush?

For what it's worth, if travelling without a reservation, I'd head to the quiet coach first and only choose another one if it was too busy. It's a shame to see them go.

 

[All Line Rover]

My reply was addressing the "I've been on plenty of trains, however, where Coach A is full and yet there are plenty of seats available in the other standard class carriages" comment which is something I've never noticed personally - the spread on the Liverpool ones at least seems to be relatively even.

Mainly the first few late morning southbound trains with the cheapest tier of STD Advance fares available. The quiet carriage appears to be particularly popular on those trains. I try to avoid them as it is frustrating not to be able to secure a seat in the quiet carriage when you have a walk-up or season ticket.

Quite a few Saturday morning southbound trains as well, come to think of it.

 

[Northern Pacer]

Let's face it, the Vomiter Voyager fleet realistically needs the Quiet Zone, whereas with the Pendo fleet i can wholly disagree, if anything the 1st Class one should be removed!

 

[driver_m]

Of course some Pendolinos are full. I was getting at the suggestion that having a quiet carriage somehow makes the remaining carriages busier (and which is an argument Virgin uses for the removal of the 1ST quiet coach - see other thread), which is utter nonsense on Virgin West Coast.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


'Internal document'. Says it all. Why aren't Virgin giving passengers advance warning? Why are they allowing passengers to continue to specify the quiet coach when booking first class tickets for September onward, when it will no longer exist?

The information I received about the removal of the STD quiet coach comes from the same source that provided information about the removal of the 1ST quiet coach. I have not been provided with any dates. I have already gathered that the 1ST quiet coach is being removed in early September (which ties in with the completion of the conversion of Coach G on the 9-car Pendolinos) from looking at VT's booking engine. As for the STD quiet coach, I can't see anything just yet. There is nothing to stop Virgin from changing their mind...

Ever heard of the phrase 'don't shoot the messenger'?

As I've already said. Your thread title has incorrect information. Standard class quiet coach isn't going. Instead of hiding behind some 'source' just admit it is wrong.

 

[All Line Rover]

I would like it to be wrong. Unfortunately I have not been able to get written confirmation from Virgin that it will not be removed. Twitter is not a reliable source of information.

 

[Northern Pacer]

In regards to my earlier post, I made a slight error in saying that the Voyager Fleet needs the quiet zone. I meant quite the opposite, with the trains being as full as they are!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The worst was a London Midland 323, where nobody takes any notice whatsoever of the stickers and just talks / plays music / uses the phone like they do in all the rest of the train.

LM 323s have a quiet Zone? I now get the feeling I've been THAT guy, in some cases now

 

[Starmill]

Ever heard of the phrase 'don't shoot the messenger'?

As I've already said. Your thread title has incorrect information. Standard class quiet coach isn't going. Instead of hiding behind some 'source' just admit it is wrong.

You claim he's wrong, he claims you're wrong. (Now, that never happens around here, does it?)

Thus far, both claims are equally valid in my eyes, as both sides have presented exactly the same evidence [none]!

Neither of you is under any obligation to actually provide any evidence one way or the other, but I'm just pointing out the lolness of the continuing discussion in light of this.

 

[driver_m]

You claim he's wrong, he claims you're wrong. (Now, that never happens around here, does it?)

Thus far, both claims are equally valid in my eyes, as both sides have presented exactly the same evidence [none]!

Neither of you is under any obligation to actually provide any evidence one way or the other, but I'm just pointing out the lolness of the continuing discussion in light of this.

Well my evidence is the fact I work there. if that isn't good enough evidence then I don't know is. I'm not carrying on with this because it is ridiculous