Virgin Trains Ticket inspectors at Manchester Piccadilly

[Starmill]

Two quid on a ticket of fifteen quid is noise level in the messy fare system we have.

As for the VT Only ticket, that's yield management again - VT have empty seats, so they fill them by charging a lower fare.

Well, it is 8%. Which suggests that XC have increased the price of the ticket since taking over the flow by more than 8% (the other fare will have gone up too). Sounds like a fairly large discrepancy to me.

How, giving a costed example, do you think we should reduce fares in this area without impacting income?

Neil

Why do you think it is justifiable for TOCs to increase their revenues so they can increase their profits?

 

[pemma]

Most the big East Midlands Trains managed stations have barriers or they have tried to install them as I think barriers is something they like so I don't think they would object to a ticket check.

Northern Rail are also a fan of barriers at big stations as well but Transpennie Express seem to try and avoid them. CrossCountry don't manage any stations so don't think their opinion matters.

TPE manage Huddersfield which is barriered.

Do Northern actually have a higher proportion of barriered stations (compared to TPE)?

TPE manage 30 stations, while Northern manage 463, so really Northern need to have at least 16 stations barriered for every 1 TPE have barriered for them to be 'more in favour of barriers.'

While Northern installed the barriers at Leeds, it was on the instruction of DfT using funds provided by DfT. The station is actually managed by Network Rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do you think it is justifiable for TOCs to increase their revenues so they can increase their profits?

Because they are a business and have the obligation to their shareholders to do so.

We can of course debate whether that is the right model for the industry (personally, as you do, I have my doubts) but as it is...

Neil

 

[muz379]

It could also be because, particularly from Stoke, the price of Any Permitted walk-up tickets is waaaaaaaay too high.

Regardless of if the ticket is way too high or not if you wish to travel on the train you pay it . I think the price of a loaf of bread and a pint of milk is way too much . I think that my quarterly energy bill is too high , and I think the price I pay for petrol is way too high , Would that be an acceptable excuse for knicking my bread and milk , and filling my car up but not paying . No it wouldnt however somehow on the railway people think its acceptable to comment on the price of the product when talking about far evasion .

 

[Starmill]

Regardless of if the ticket is way too high or not if you wish to travel on the train you pay it . I think the price of a loaf of bread and a pint of milk is way too much . I think that my quarterly energy bill is too high , and I think the price I pay for petrol is way too high , Would that be an acceptable excuse for knicking my bread and milk , and filling my car up but not paying . No it wouldnt however somehow on the railway people think its acceptable to comment on the price of the product when talking about far evasion .

I don't justify it, nor do I fare evade. But you can't argue that isn't the way people think. If the fare were more reasonably priced, that would reduce the incentive to dishonest individuals to fare evade.

If I don't like the price of bread in a shop, I'll go to a different shop. If I want a day return from Manchester to Stoke, I can assure you that I do not pay £15 for it (nor do I pay £9.90, if we are factoring in a railcard discount) :P

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the fare were more reasonably priced, that would reduce the incentive to dishonest individuals to fare evade.

I disagree. There are honest and dishonest people. Dishonest people will fare dodge even if it's for a single from Oxford Road to Piccadilly if they can.

Such people don't think "is this right", they think "will I get away with it", and sometimes "what is the consequence if I don't".

Neil

 

[muz379]

I don't justify it, nor do I fare evade. But you can't argue that isn't the way people think. If the fare were more reasonably priced, that would reduce the incentive to dishonest individuals to fare evade.

If I don't like the price of bread in a shop, I'll go to a different shop. If I want a day return from Manchester to Stoke, I can assure you that I do not pay £15 for it (nor do I pay £9.90, if we are factoring in a railcard discount) :P

You cant know for sure and it is pretty silly of you to try and argue that levels of fare evasion would fall if fares where lower . Merely anecdotal but when Northern used to have a cheap evening return in Manchester I still encountered people that did not want to buy tickets after northern practically giving them away .

I think the price of bread in all shops is too much tho . As for petrol am I suddenly allowed to drive off after filling my tank and claim its too much to pay though .

 

[bunnahabhain]

I've never seen ATW nor EMT revenue at Piccadilly participating before. Do Northern have a revenue departmentany more? I think it's just the STM Monkeys adn some assistant ticket sellers on the other side.

EMT help Northern out by covering some Sheffield area stations with RPOs, I believe there is a similar arrangement when it comes to shacks EMT call at west of the hills. That said with the exception of peak time trains that are rammed its quite rare not to get gripped on an EMT service, unless you're only going as far as Stockport.

 

[OuterDistant]

At Stoke-on-Trent and Macclesfield there is no problem for buying tickets it just people don't want to buy them because I am going to say it bluntly they are simply low life scum who are sponging of the railway simply because they don't feel they should pay for a service that they are using.

Quite true, and it doesn't help that there are three entrances at SOT, two of which seem to be as far away from the ticket office as it's possible to get.

You're right about ticket checks: last week I did SOT - Stockport with a break on the return journey at Macclesfield, plus travelling with three TOCs, and the only time we had our tickets checked was just as we were pulling into SOT on the return leg!

 

[thenorthern]

I remember before barriers were introduced at Haymarket and Edinburgh in 2004 people used to jump on the train at Edinburgh and jump off at Haymarket quite often. I also remember at the time the barriers being useless as any ticket worked regardless if it was valid or not however luckily for National Express Scotrail not many people knew that.

I think they are going to barrier up Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly as part of the Virgin Trains franchise agreement or something. Not sure how they are going to do Stoke but at Piccadilly I think it will remain a human inspection rather than proper barriers.

 

[Starmill]

EMT help Northern out by covering some Sheffield area stations with RPOs, I believe there is a similar arrangement when it comes to shacks EMT call at west of the hills. That said with the exception of peak time trains that are rammed its quite rare not to get gripped on an EMT service, unless you're only going as far as Stockport.

Indeed, and you have, from my empirical judgement, the second highest chance of having your ticket checked on an EMT train Manchester - Stockport of any TOC (the most proactive are ATW).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You cant know for sure and it is pretty silly of you to try and argue that levels of fare evasion would fall if fares where lower

You're correct. Lowering fares is unlikely to get those who have realised they won't be challenged if they don't pay to do so. But increasing fares is very likely to get those who do pay to try to get away without doing so. It's just like tax evasion, there has really been a lot of research done on that.

As for the people who didn't even buy an evening return, I can assure you I know who you mean and they never bought a ticket then, they never buy tickets now, and given the way things are going with Northern they never will! It's one of the reasons I was so infuriated by the evening peak restrictions: it came with no enforcement measures at all. As such, it has penalised honest people who now have to pay more for the same tickets they were buying, but has done nothing to tackle the people who travelled without a ticket in the evening peak. They paid £0 before and they are still paying £0 now!

There's also a social aspect you're not taking into account. Most people would sympathise with someone who stole a loaf of bread because they were starving, but not with someone who doesn't buy a train ticket because they are in transport poverty. Just saying.

 

[thenorthern]

I have just left Piccadilly and they are there again this morning and they are out there in force and Arriva Trains Wales are checking as well this morning. I asked the Virgin Trains man and he said checks are going to be regular but barriers are coming in soon.

I know I shouldn't find this funny but there is a free rider from Stoke who`s face just went shocked this morning when she found out she would have to pay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know I shouldn't find this funny but there is a free rider from Stoke who`s face just went shocked this morning when she found out she would have to pay.

If there's really a lot of this going on, it's time for Penalty Fares, IMO.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

If there's really a lot of this going on, it's time for Penalty Fares, IMO.

Neil

I respectfully disagree - I would favour straight up prosecution. Penalty fares are for mistakes, not criminal, persistent evasion of the fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I respectfully disagree - I would favour straight up prosecution. Penalty fares are for mistakes, not criminal, persistent evasion of the fare.

Having penalty fares just for mistakes is a bit unfriendly, though. If it's possible to weed out those deliberately evading the fare from those who are not, it'd be better just to charge the required fare to those who are not.

The trouble is that differentiating is difficult, which is why I would decriminalise fare dodging in the manner of parking, and simply set a high penalty fare along similar lines. Something like £100, reduced to £50 if paid on the spot or within N days, might be about right, perhaps removing the discount for a second offence within one month. You would then pay the correct (discounted if appropriate) fare on top in addition. You then grip often enough to ensure there is no financial loss from fare dodging, and leave it at that.

If some people would rather pay £100 when caught once a week then £80 for a season ticket, say, why should I mind?

But for a PF scheme like that to work it would need to be administered differently. Sham PF schemes like LM's where the guard can and does sell normal tickets are pointless. Guards need to be able to issue PFs and only PFs, like they can in Switzerland (though perhaps you'd need to send an additional security guard around with them on particular trains). You pay before you board, or you WILL be PFed, is the impression you need to give to people. The only exception being a verifiable closed ticket office AND broken PERTIS machine.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

Having penalty fares just for mistakes is a bit unfriendly, though. If it's possible to weed out those deliberately evading the fare from those who are not, it'd be better just to charge the required fare to those who are not.

The trouble is that differentiating is difficult, which is why I would decriminalise fare dodging in the manner of parking, and simply set a high penalty fare along similar lines. Something like £100, reduced to £50 if paid on the spot or within N days, might be about right, perhaps removing the discount for a second offence within one month. You would then pay the correct (discounted if appropriate) fare on top in addition. You then grip often enough to ensure there is no financial loss from fare dodging, and leave it at that.

If some people would rather pay £100 when caught once a week then £80 for a season ticket, say, why should I mind?

But for a PF scheme like that to work it would need to be administered differently. Sham PF schemes like LM's where the guard can and does sell normal tickets are pointless. Guards need to be able to issue PFs and only PFs, like they can in Switzerland (though perhaps you'd need to send an additional security guard around with them on particular trains). You pay before you board, or you WILL be PFed, is the impression you need to give to people. The only exception being a verifiable closed ticket office AND broken PERTIS machine.

Neil

But if you board without paying, where you had opportunity to do so, that constitutes deliberately evading the fare. How can one possibly intend to pay despite not paying? It's a case of 'intending to pay when caught'. If the clauses in Passengers' Charters about waiting times were amended to say "you don't have to wait longer than ten minutes" rather than "you shouldn't have to" then I think those who aren't attempting to avoid paying, but still pass an opportunity to pay because the queues are obscene, can be differentiated.

I would do away with this BS £80 "admin fee" and instead have a first & last warning, and request for the full fare, followed by guaranteed prosecution upon a second offence. Only that way will it hammer home the message that you must pay before travelling.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have just left Piccadilly and they are there again this morning and they are out there in force and Arriva Trains Wales are checking as well this morning. I asked the Virgin Trains man and he said checks are going to be regular but barriers are coming in soon.

I know I shouldn't find this funny but there is a free rider from Stoke who's face just went shocked this morning when she found out she would have to pay.

Just come into Piccadilly and there's a minor police presence by the barriers, with one chav getting gripped! Brilliant.

Edit: make that two chavs - the ATW staff have collared someone else!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you board without paying, where you had opportunity to do so, that constitutes deliberately evading the fare. How can one possibly intend to pay despite not paying?

A good way is having forgotten to renew a season ticket or Railcard, or normally having one, intending to buy daily tickets for a bit for whatever reason, and forgetting to do so. Or having inadvertently booked a ticket online for the wrong day. Or having forgotten you bought a Standard ticket that day and sitting in First Class instead.

The great thing about barriers is that the only one of those that is possible is an expired Railcard (hard to check that, though I can see Railcards in future becoming ITSO cards that will only discount tickets loaded to that card) as the barrier will not let you through without a valid ticket, and intent (CCTV of someone jumping over) is clear. But of course barriers are only viable at staffed stations. Though it is a good habit to get into to insert your ticket in the barrier even if they are open and the station is unstaffed, as that way you won't forget.

Neil

 

[Clip]

A good way is having forgotten to renew a season ticket or Railcard, or normally having one, intending to buy daily tickets for a bit for whatever reason, and forgetting to do so.

And a quick PF will ensure they dont do it again wont it ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And a quick PF will ensure they dont do it again wont it ?

It'll serve as motivation not to. But people fare dodging by mistake aren't the problem per-se, it's people doing it on purpose (particularly as in some of the cases, e.g. leaving your Railcard at home, the railway hasn't actually lost any money). It isn't good to give people fare dodging by mistake a criminal record. Therefore to me the solution is to decriminalise, like parking, and just set penalty fares and inspection levels accordingly so no money is lost.

Another way might be a graduated PF - £10 for first offence, £50 for second, £200 for all subsequent offences, plus the appropriate fare that would have been sold before travel. The first is a kick as a reminder, the second a harder kick, the third onwards is revenue recovery. The number resets each calendar year.

The approach seems to work for parking, which is a similar magnitude of sum as city rail fares.

Neil

 

[Clip]

It'll serve as motivation not to. But people fare dodging by mistake aren't the problem per-se, it's people doing it on purpose (particularly as in some of the cases, e.g. leaving your Railcard at home, the railway hasn't actually lost any money). It isn't good to give people fare dodging by mistake a criminal record. Therefore to me the solution is to decriminalise, like parking, and just set penalty fares and inspection levels accordingly so no money is lost.

Another way might be a graduated PF - £10 for first offence, £50 for second, £200 for all subsequent offences, plus the appropriate fare that would have been sold before travel. The first is a kick as a reminder, the second a harder kick, the third onwards is revenue recovery. The number resets each calendar year.

The approach seems to work for parking, which is a similar magnitude of sum as city rail fares.

Neil

They dont. They either get a PF or in areas where the scheme doesnt apply most get to be able to pay out of court with no criminal record.

Those that do get such a thing I would think are not those who make mistakes but those who do it on purpose and all the time.

You seem to want to make the system even harder and for the life of me I dont know why.

 

[Merseysider]

How does giving more people a chance to evade the fare constitute rigid enforcement of the rules? You shouldn't be let off more than once; we're all human and make mistakes. But if you don't "get it" first time around, you're not going to suddenly start paying if you know you can get away with again with only a slap on the wrist.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

How many of the people queuing to buy tickets from the one man on the platform at Piccadilly are 'fare dodgers' and how many are passengers (customers!) who would have liked to have bought tickets but couldn't - perhaps because their suburban station is unstaffed / office closed / the guard didn't / couldn't come round selling tickets?

There seems to be a general assumption on this thread that 'no ticket = fare dodger'.

I refer to those alighting from local Northern services - not those from Stoke / Macclesfield who had ample opportunity to buy before boarding.

Just had one of my ideas - why not have ticket vending machines on trains. Not near the doors but inside the saloon so people can buy after boarding but before alighting (obviously not possible if crush loaded).

 

[Puffing Devil]

How many of the people queuing to buy tickets from the one man on the platform at Piccadilly are 'fare dodgers' and how many are passengers (customers!) who would have liked to have bought tickets but couldn't - perhaps because their suburban station is unstaffed / office closed / the guard didn't / couldn't come round selling tickets?

I refer to those alighting from local Northern services - not those from Stoke / Macclesfield who had ample opportunity to buy before boarding.

Just had one of my ideas - why not have ticket vending machines on trains. Not near the doors but inside the saloon so people can buy after boarding but before alighting (obviously not possible if crush loaded).

Or put a simple TVM on the platform at unstaffed stations.

 

[Merseysider]

Or put a simple TVM on the platform at unstaffed stations.

Including the ability to pay by cash as well - then there can be no excuses.
Unless of course you have an RTV.

 

[thenorthern]

At Piccadilly there is normally a queue right down the 08:27 arrival from Euston which stops at Milton Keynes Central, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport all of which are staffed so really there is no excuse and bear in mind all of them except MKC have at least a Manchester train every 20 min. They are free riders simple.

 

[Bletchleyite]

MKC has barriers so I doubt many are from there.

 

[Clip]

How many of the people queuing to buy tickets from the one man on the platform at Piccadilly are 'fare dodgers' and how many are passengers (customers!) who would have liked to have bought tickets but couldn't - perhaps because their suburban station is unstaffed / office closed / the guard didn't / couldn't come round selling tickets?

There seems to be a general assumption on this thread that 'no ticket = fare dodger'.

No not at all, I think most of us are well aware of the many stations that dont have facilities to purchase before they travel its just we are realistic enough to know that with issues like these you are going to get a fair amount of passengers who daily do not buy a ticket from stations that have got facilities and try it on.

Machines on trains sounds great but then you're using up valuable space and also with Northern you are taking a job away from the guard also which is a slippery slope that no one wants right?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Indeed, and you have, from my empirical judgement, the second highest chance of having your ticket checked on an EMT train Manchester - Stockport of any TOC (the most proactive are ATW).

You can usually check a full coach between Manchester and Stockport if you don't have to deal with any enquiries or sales. The main reason for doing it is that it gives you a lot more time to enjoy the scenery after Disley Tunnel.

 

[HowardGWR]

I've returned to the first OP and I can't see what all this has to do with infrastructure, unless it is about installing barriers at Piccadilly. Is that the plan?

 

[berneyarms]

I've returned to the first OP and I can't see what all this has to do with infrastructure, unless it is about installing barriers at Piccadilly. Is that the plan?

Well the sub-forum is "Infrastructure & Stations. I assume that the OP felt that it would fall under the second half of the forum title?