Vivarail to enter administration

[SERA01UK]

With the news today that Vivarail has filed a notice of intention to enter administration I suspect this project may be in trouble.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

With the news today that Vivarail has filed a notice of intention to enter administration I suspect this project may be in trouble.

Sad but not surprising given the difficulties they've had on many projects. Shooter had a vision which unfortunately was probably rooted in the BR way of make do and mend which it was brilliant at due to managers like Adrian implementing it but too many people today expect something a lot more but reality is the railway can no longer afford that approach if it wants to provide something better for its passengers.

 

[D365]

With the news today that Vivarail has filed a notice of intention to enter administration I suspect this project may be in trouble.

Crikey. They have at least a few patents holed up in their ’fast-charge’ battery technology, but I suspect that [if this news is true] it may be the lesser of their woes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sad but not surprising given the difficulties they've had on many projects. Shooter had a vision which unfortunately was probably rooted in the BR way of make do and mend which it was brilliant at due to managers like Adrian implementing it but too many people today expect something a lot more but reality is the railway can no longer afford that approach if it wants to provide something better for its passengers.

That's quite sad to hear. I wonder how this will affect the longevity of the 230s on the Marston Vale, given that there'll presumably no longer be manufacturer support?

Sad but not surprising given the difficulties they've had on many projects. Shooter had a vision which unfortunately was probably rooted in the BR way of make do and mend which it was brilliant at due to managers like Adrian implementing it but too many people today expect something a lot more but reality is the railway can no longer afford that approach if it wants to provide something better for its passengers.

The big issue for the Marston Vale units was that they just plain didn't work. They do now, but that very long period with fires and breakdowns must have done serious reputational damage to the idea. Which is a shame as for the line they're a lovely little quirk when they're working, which they mostly are now.

I wonder where this will leave this project and the TfW units? Would someone else want to take on this research aspect (rather than the lines of Tube train scrap)?

 

[D365]

I wonder where this will leave this project and the TfW units? Would someone else want to take on this research aspect (rather than the lines of Tube train scrap)?

While I'm very much speculating here, I can foresee the battery expertise being retained by a smaller organisation.

 

[richw]

That's quite sad to hear. I wonder how this will affect the longevity of the 230s on the Marston Vale, given that there'll presumably no longer be manufacturer support?

More importantly I believe Vivarail own those units and lease them to the TOC.

Summary of attached image: Screenshot of a staff notice that’s in public domain explaining that vivarail have filed intention to administration and the toc are awaiting more information on what affect this Will have.

 

[D365]

More importantly I believe Vivarail own those units and lease them to the TOC. Screenshot of a staff notice that’s in public domain explaining that vivarail have filed intention to administration and the toc are awaiting more information on what affect this Will have.

Island Line will have the same concern. No engines on IoW, but the new TSA traction packages require ongoing software & hardware support.

 

[Meole]

Tough for the employees.

 

[DarloRich]

I have my issues with Vivarail and the product they offered us on the Marston Vale but this news will be devastating for thier employees and they should have first thought at this time.

Detials here via Railadvent: https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/11/vivarail-announces-intention-to-appoint-administrators.html

Battery and hybrid train manufacturer, Vivarail, has announced its intention to appoint administrators.

The big issue for the Marston Vale units was that they just plain didn't work. They do now, but that very long period with fires and breakdowns must have done serious reputational damage to the idea. Which is a shame as for the line they're a lovely little quirk when they're working, which they mostly are now.

Correct - big worry must be on going engineering support. I suspect Shanks Pony Rail will be back again very soon.

The unreliable product ( and while the trains are now doing ok they did not for an embarrassingly long period of time) on the Vale has done so much damage to the reputation of the service and the attractiveness of that service to potential customers. It is SO frustrating. The passenger ambience in the 230's is MILES better than the dogbox. All that good will washed away with an unreliable product! it should have been so different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An interesting "don't worry too much" line (much as I really do feel for them) is that Parry Associates hasn't been a thing for a very long time, yet the Parry People Movers are still in service. Pre Metro Operations Ltd is I think the only remnant of that.

Of course there is an ongoing thread about an actual (not speculative) plan to replace them as they're getting unreliable, but they are getting on a bit now for something not designed to last the typical 30-50 years of rail vehicles. So the 230s might well soldier on just fine. As for the traction packages, much as it'd come at a cost, I'm sure the manufacturer would willingly sign a support contract of some kind, and there's hardly going to be a shortage of spares for Ford Transit engines any time soon. So it's quite possible that TOCs can manage it themselves*, albeit at a higher cost than otherwise.

* I'm sure, for instance, Tyseley can manage to hit it with their big hammer and gaffer-tape back on any bits that fall off, as I believe was their reputation in some quarters.

 

[DarloRich]

* I'm sure, for instance, Tyseley can manage to hit it with their big hammer and gaffer-tape back on any bits that fall off, as I believe was their reputation in some quarters.

They did with the chugs often enough

The issue will surely be staff knowledge/competency IF any existing staff at Bletcho leave during the transition period. Hopefully all academic and everything soldiers on.

TBH most worried the workers are looked after properly.

So the 230s might well soldier on just fine.

shame. Hoping we might replace them with, say, a couple of 37's and a carriage or 2

 

[Bletchleyite]

shame. Hoping we might replace them with, say, a couple of 37's and a carriage or 2

Obviously they should get it wired and use 11.390

(This post is not speculative, because it's such a ridiculous suggestion that nobody would seriously even speculate that that might happen despite the odd traction it's hosted over the years! )

 

[zwk500]

* I'm sure, for instance, Tyseley can manage to hit it with their big hammer and gaffer-tape back on any bits that fall off, as I believe was their reputation in some quarters.

Tbh there's probably a few garages in Bletchley that'll have a look at them if you can get it to them early

Presumably the Intellectual property of VivaRail can be bought up as part of the administration deal, so hopefully the R&D already completed doesn't go to waste. Even if it means the DfT setting up a shell company for a bit until they can find a private sector buyer. The fast charge system was going to be very interesting to monitor on the Greenford branch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably the Intellectual property of VivaRail can be bought up as part of the administration deal, so hopefully the R&D already completed doesn't go to waste. Even if it means the DfT setting up a shell company for a bit until they can find a private sector buyer. The fast charge system was going to be very interesting to monitor on the Greenford branch.

It is of course quite possible another manufacturer will purchase that alone, and potentially even install the tech on one of their own EMUs for the trial instead of a 230. For instance GWR aren't exactly short of Electrostars at the moment. It is probably the most promising bit - knackered old Tube trains with Transit engines aren't really the valuable bit.

 

[Taunton]

Significant part of this was the constant barrage of "other people's cast offs", or "why should we have London's scrapheap" and other negative comments, including on here. This commonly for trains on services where the vast majority of the cost is borne from public funds. And the ambience is perfectly pleasant, such comments often being made by those who have never even ridden in them (or politicians who don't use the train at all). Good idea, killed by negativity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Significant part of this was the constant barrage of "other people's cast offs", or "why should we have London's scrapheap" and other negative comments, including on here. This commonly for trains on services where the vast majority of the cost is borne from public funds. And the ambience is perfectly pleasant, such comments often being made by those who have never even ridden in them (or politicians who don't use the train at all). Good idea, killed by negativity.

Killed by serious unreliability too, including the fires. They are decent inside, but that wasn't the main problem. I reckon if they hadn't been so unreliable we would have seen more. The period of more than a year when the Marston Vale was destroyed was bad, but then the issues getting the TfW units in service iced the cake.

 

[swt_passenger]

Island Line will have the same concern. No engines on IoW, but the new TSA traction packages require ongoing software & hardware support.

TSA is a different sort of firm entirely isn’t it? Austrian with worldwide use of their products?

 

[Mikey C]

Sad news, but the endless delays and issues will have lost a lot of confidence in the product, and cost a fortune in extra costs and delayed revenue.

Indeed the whole original concept of sticking van diesel engines underneath a District Line train from the 70s was a bit flawed.

 

[plugwash]

The whole concept of conversion projects on old rollling stock doesn't exactly seem to have been a roaring success. The other company that tried it also delivered their product years late and then it took even more time after that for them to "bed in" and start delivering some semblance of a reliable service.

 

[dgl]

TSA is a different sort of firm entirely isn’t it? Austrian with worldwide use of their products?

Yes, and they do OEM support, so there will still be people who support the new traction equipment.

 

[Class 466]

They only appointed a new Business Development Director 2 weeks ago...

Vivarail appoints new Business Development Director to drive battery technology - RailAdvent

 

[D365]

TSA is a different sort of firm entirely isn’t it? Austrian with worldwide use of their products?

Yes, but Vivarail purchased their kit and designed/installed it onto the D-Train. So I’m not sure what support TSA will be able to provide.

Indeed the whole original concept of sticking van diesel engines underneath a District Line train from the 70s was a bit flawed.

Which is why they tried to move away from it.

They only appointed a new Business Development Director 2 weeks ago...

Vivarail appoints new Business Development Director to drive battery technology - RailAdvent

Indeed, and they were posting on Linkedin until very recently!

 

[Gloster]

My feeling is that, as mentioned above, the railway has become far too used to buying shiny new kit and replacing older trains long before the end of their economic life, although there are are exceptions. This is combined with a feeling that each company must outdo the others by having newer trains, and anyway it is somebody else’s money that pays for the stuff. And all the non-railway interests (‘stakeholders’) demand that they get the latest trains. The carefully planned cascades of BR days which spread some improvement across the network at the lowest cost and got the best out of trains over their lifetime is probably regarded as ridiculously old fashioned nowadays.

 

[DarloRich]

Significant part of this was the constant barrage of "other people's cast offs", or "why should we have London's scrapheap" and other negative comments, including on here. This commonly for trains on services where the vast majority of the cost is borne from public funds. And the ambience is perfectly pleasant, such comments often being made by those who have never even ridden in them (or politicians who don't use the train at all). Good idea, killed by negativity.

As a daily user of these trains am I allowed to comment or do you only want positivity and comforting lies?

The ambience is very nice. Sadly that ambience was on far too many occasions in the shed while the vehicle that carried it was under repair and I was walking home in the rain.

The carefully planned cascades of BR days which spread some improvement across the network at the lowest cost and got the best out of trains over their lifetime is probably regarded as ridiculously old fashioned nowadays.

But that is exactly what happened on the Marston Vale. the BR units were cascade elsewhere and the 230's were the only only replacement available.

 

[43096]

but then the issues getting the TfW units in service iced the cake.

You know what the issues are, do you? Because TfW have been utterly inept.

 

[hacman]

A large part of this could also be the supply chain and logistics issues that are facing just about every industry right now. Even standard and usually well stocked items in the electrical/electronics sectors are still hit-and-miss for lead times, and many suppliers have increased their prices to offset costs and losses from the last few years. In many industries the cost of doing business has sharply risen even without considering the prices of specific parts and materials too.

It's a sad situation as the concept certainly had legs, though efforts to secure uptake overseas have been futile; I believe another unit has just been shipped to the US to try garner some interest. You also have to wonder what the longer term plan was when they ran out of the D-Stock bodies they purchased.

With any luck as there is an (admittedly small) order-book and some IP, someone like Stadler may look to purchase the remains of the business.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's quite sad to hear. I wonder how this will affect the longevity of the 230s on the Marston Vale, given that there'll presumably no longer be manufacturer support?

Hunslet TPL failed pretty much at the moment their class 323s started work on BR.
Somehow, after 28 years the 323s are still the preferred EMU on Northern.
Holec, who supplied the traction package, are in there somewhere, now part of Eaton.

 

[D365]

With any luck as there is an (admittedly small) order-book and some IP, someone like Stadler may look to purchase the remains of the business.

Yes I hope so too. They had some interesting projects in the pipeline.

 

[43096]

Holec, who supplied the traction package, are in there somewhere, now part of Eaton.

The traction package supply part of Holec was bought by Alstom. That explains in large part why the 323 re-tractioning used Alstom IGBT kit.

 

[Horizon22]

Will be integrating to see what - if anything - comes of the Greenford branch battery trial due to start next year if this goes ahead.