Vivarail to enter administration

[Peter Mugridge]

The administrators decide what to do why would VivaRail have made the redundancies given they had an operating lease for the trains.

Just a thought, given what the role of an administrator is... particularly with regard to money.

The whole idea of administration is to reduce losses and maximise income.

If the administrators pulled the maintenance contract suddenly like that, given it was the lead use of the 230s and therefore the showroom, so to speak, is it possible that the maintenance contract was a "loss-leader" in the hope of selling more 230s elsewhere? If it was then it makes perfect sense that an administrator would shut it down instantly - that very act suggests Vivarail were losing money on the maintenance contract, does it not?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or simply that the company lacked the money to keep the staff on. Administrators can't access a secret money source, all they have is the remaining liquidity in the company.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Interesting comments from vivarail MD....wonder which toc he is referring to?

That is just the usual blaming someone else for their failures. It is standard practice in the rail industry.

What did they prove at COP26? COP26 was 13 months ago and they haven't received a single order since then. Why not if they proved something?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

i like the way LNR have been able to resource a a semi fast and slow bus every 90m for Bedford Bletchley given its a weekend and plenty of engineering work in the area would suggest they prepared for this several days ago.

 

[hwl]

'Industry player' is not necessarily a TOC.

It could also a very good description of their former major US shareholder/funder. He has a reputation for playing with his 1:1 train set.
They put huge effort into US markets and demonstrations with nothing to show.

In all probability it is likely to be DfT under multiple SoS (Sir Patrick and onwards) partly because of the (London) cast offs despite being economically better and partly because of moving technological goal posts e.g. diesel transit engine dead end for huge R&D spend.

I also wouldn't rule out TfW as Viva had huge hopes for Valley lines battery with the bidder than came second to Keolis but all that went to Stadler/CAF instead and TfW have been rightfully insist end on reliability in Northeast Wales with Vivarail.

Also potentially Treasury for glacial approval speeds (nothing new), it might just have surprised those new to the direct experience.

I would have expected TOCs to be very keen on their fast-charging technology, and unlikely to be messing Vivarail around.

Everyone likes the idea of fast-charging... until they see the price tag and technical limitations!

The harsh reality is that fast-charging may currently be too expensive when benchmarked to potential alternatives.

 

[zwk500]

It could also a very good description of their former major US shareholder/funder. He has a reputation for playing with his 1:1 train set.
They put huge effort into US markets and demonstrations with nothing to show.

The phrase suggests an organisation not directly connected to Vivarail but yes, it could involve their major backer.

Everyone likes the idea of fast-charging... until they see the price tag and technical limitations!

The harsh reality is that fast-charging may currently be too expensive when benchmarked to potential alternatives.

This is true, but even so I'd have expected TOCs to be fairly straight about it. 'We like the idea but our budget is X and no more' kind of engagement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

i like the way LNR have been able to resource a a semi fast and slow bus every 90m for Bedford Bletchley given its a weekend and plenty of engineering work in the area would suggest they prepared for this several days ago.

Of course they have. It was foreseeable.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Of course they have. It was foreseeable.

Given how some operators struggle to resources buses for planned engineering works theyve done well.

 

[Peter Sarf]

i like the way LNR have been able to resource a a semi fast and slow bus every 90m for Bedford Bletchley given its a weekend and plenty of engineering work in the area would suggest they prepared for this several days ago.

Of course they have. It was foreseeable.

Plus LNR have had plenty of practice at it. I would imagine the bus operator will see it as a steady contract for a lot longer than the duration of a mere engineering works possession.

 

[100andthirty]

Notwithstanding the absense of passenger trains, the rail head treatment trains continue to operate, I understand.

 

[warwickshire]

Notwithstanding the absense of passenger trains, the rail head treatment trains continue to operate, I understand.

Yes. The drivers at Kings Norton have moved over to Rail Adventure. And the work jobs involved ie RHTT is already, and has been since the takeover from SLC to Rail Adventure in August 2022. Already been programmed and planned to go ahead as usual.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Notwithstanding the absense of passenger trains, the rail head treatment trains continue to operate, I understand.

Hmm, do they have many spare seats ?.

 

[DarloRich]

Notwithstanding the absense of passenger trains, the rail head treatment trains continue to operate, I understand.

Of course. There are freights along the vale

 

[zwk500]

Genuine question, if the traction was removed from the depot competency, does it need union consultation to be added back on?

 

[craigybagel]

I think, to most plain old passengers, they don't give a flip about non-compliance. Especially for a short period of time whilst a crisis is dealt with and a longer term solution is found. Derogations can be applied for. I was thinking @DarloRich might like a 37 and a directors saloon, as per the ones operated on the Kyle line, with or without the guide commentary.

I'm sure most passengers indeed don't care, but those for whom the PRM rules are designed would probably care very much.
In any case rules are rules - and the PRM rules are there for a reason, and can't be ignored just because it suits.

A derogation can indeed be applied for given the special circumstances here, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's declined - and even if it isn't, it's not likely to be instant.

Lock the bog, fiddle with the seat spacing and fit TrainFX, awful though it is. Doesn't require much more than that, does it?

Door chimes too, and I think there's a few other minor bits and pieces. Easily enough done, but not an instant fix by any means.

In all seriousness, though, with the 197s coming into service, if the 230s can't be saved then the sensible option is probably to run buses until TfW can release three PRMed 150s. I would imagine Tyseley crews can remember how to hit them with a big hammer and gaffer tape stuff up as needed.

The TfW 150s are already earmarked for other work - they're not likely to be in a position to release any for several months, unless somewhere else is prepared to go short as part of the cascade.

 

[450.emu]

What will happen with the new Island Line stock now, will they just figure out how to keep it going like they did with the 483's?

 

[800001]

What will happen with the new Island Line stock now, will they just figure out how to keep it going like they did with the 483's?

They maintain them themselves.

 

[DelW]

I'm sure most passengers indeed don't care, but those for whom the PRM rules are designed would probably care very much.
In any case rules are rules - and the PRM rules are there for a reason, and can't be ignored just because it suits.

A derogation can indeed be applied for given the special circumstances here, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's declined - and even if it isn't, it's not likely to be instant.

One would hope that a factor in that decision would be whether or not the current RRBs offer a similar level of PRM compliance. If they don't, then a noncompliant 153 is no worse than the buses for PRM passengers and is likely to be better for most of the others.
(Though I appreciate that there are likely to be numerous other difficulties getting 153s out of storage and into service)

 

[Wyrleybart]

Even if they are, companies can continue operating under administrators.

That is how i understood it. If the administrators find a successful way out of the problems for the company the THEORETICALLY some jobs are saved and some of the business continues.

Sounds pretty terminal if the maintenance staff have disappeared, although if there is any doubt about salaries being paid, i could understand it.

 

[Taunton]

Hand back what keys? It's not a franchise, it's a maintenance contract that is the issue. You can't operate without a maintenance contract in place or internal staff skilled at doing so, if the unit sits down it's just stuck there.

But in the private world, anyone stuck with the failure of a key supplier like this just takes those employees on to their own payroll, or issues a guarantee to the Administrator that they will pay the continuing costs of the staff, stores, etc. Costs a bit of money but keeps things going. Standard stuff the Administrator will be familiar with - they may even have asked for it.

 

[zwk500]

But in the private world, anyone stuck with the failure of a key supplier like this just takes those employees on to their own payroll, or issues a guarantee to the Administrator that they will pay the continuing costs of the staff, stores, etc. Costs a bit of money but keeps things going. Standard stuff the Administrator will be familiar with - they may even have asked for it.

I am surprised that the LNWR contract with Vivarail wasn't able to be continued as it was. Either the DfT refused to sanction it, or Vivarail's accounts were very, very bad. I can't see LNWR wanting to have to bustitute, especially mid-afternoon.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I am surprised that the LNWR contract with Vivarail wasn't able to be continued as it was. Either the DfT refused to sanction it, or Vivarail's accounts were very, very bad. I can't see LNWR wanting to have to bustitute, especially mid-afternoon.

It wouldn't be LNWR's decision. DfT would have to sanction everything.
If DfT weren't in complete control of our passenger railway I would be asking why there wasn't anything in place to ameliorate the potential failure of Vivarail as a supplier, particularly as WMR are one the few who carry out their own maintenance - viz a viz Tyseley.

 

[driverd]

So just to add my 2 cents....

Firstly (and most importantly), for the sake of all the staff, it's a great shame to hear that Vivarail have gone - no doubt there will have been great, passionate people there - hopefully it won't take them too long to find another employer (given the future driven work, you'd hope other manufactures/engineering businesses would be keen to get that expertise on board).

As a business, they somewhat reminded me of the many British aviation players in the late 1940s/1950s. Relatively small operations that came up with some pretty ambitious and often first-in-class ideas to modernise the industry, and somehow managed to deliver this from a workshop not too different to someone's garage. It was great to see a British brand attempting to push boundaries.

Unfortunately, though, I am not a fan of their products. The 484s really do just feel like a tube train with new seat covers - thank the lord they never were chosen as a pacer replacement - and as the 230s have shown, the North would truly be in dire straits today if we had been lumbered with a fleet of several hundred of the things. The fast charge tech seemed really clever, but as other posters have alluded to, perhaps not at the right price point.

Still, I wonder if, in true British fashion, we'll see the tech shipped abroad, perfected and then sold back to us at a better price point. It'd be a fitting, typically British, end to the vivarail story!

 

[zwk500]

Still, I wonder if, in true British fashion, we'll see the tech shipped abroad, perfected and then sold back to us at a better price point. It'd be a fitting, typically British, end to the vivarail story!

I can see this being a very likely outcome!

 

[Taunton]

It wouldn't be LNWR's decision. DfT would have to sanction everything.
If DfT weren't in complete control of our passenger railway I would be asking why there wasn't anything in place to ameliorate the potential failure of Vivarail as a supplier, particularly as WMR are one the few who carry out their own maintenance - viz a viz Tyseley.

I suspect the real answer is not that DfT turned it down, but in typical civil service fashion were just unable to come to a decision in time, or work out who should make it. These things you have to move very fast, before the competent staff get wind of it and disappear. This includes guaranteeing them that This Week's wages (and any prior unpaid ones, as there often are), even from before the failure, will be paid out to them.

 

[DarloRich]

I suspect the real answer is not that DfT turned it down, but in typical civil service fashion were just unable to come to a decision in time, or work out who should make it.

and, perhaps most importantly, from which budget the money should come.

also worth nothing the administrators may have made demands deemed unreasonable by any third party. They are very keen to get their fees paid for obvious reasons.

I would be asking why there wasn't anything in place to ameliorate the potential failure of Vivarail as a supplier,

it is possible the LNWR mitigation was quite reasonably: we will take it in house in the event of a failure. Just need DfT approval and that will be easy because you know, people rely on trains and that.

Oh hang on..............

I am surprised that the LNWR contract with Vivarail wasn't able to be continued as it was. Either the DfT refused to sanction it, or Vivarail's accounts were very, very bad. I can't see LNWR wanting to have to bustitute, especially mid-afternoon.

Administrators cant trade insolvently - there may have been no choice.

 

[zwk500]

Administrators cant trade insolvently - there may have been no choice.

Indeed, but this does suggest Vivarail went from relatively stable to falling off a cliff practically overnight.

 

[DarloRich]

Indeed, but this does suggest Vivarail went from relatively stable to falling off a cliff practically overnight.

if, as suggested above, investors pulled out that can happen.

 

[Greybeard33]

What will happen with the new Island Line stock now, will they just figure out how to keep it going like they did with the 483's?

See this post upthread:

We know that there is bespoke software. For the 484's testing / commissioning / fault-free running had to be paused for significant software changes. Without searching back I recall one issue found was when a unit lost all contact with the third rail but had momentum to coast across the break.
Indeed going foward getting any updates done and possibily too pre-programmed modules as spares to swap out could be problematic.
Had the original motor controllers been retained worst case completely replacing the existing software would have been simpler.

I think SWR will find it quite challenging to keep the 484s going unless they can somehow secure ongoing support from (at least some of) the Vivarail engineering team for the digital control systems.

Likewise TfW for their hybrid 230s, which have only recently received software updates to address the battery charging/overheating issues.

 

[Cowley]

We feel that it’s probably best for us to close this thread now until there’s further news. For the speculation side of things there’s the separate thread below.

Thanks everyone

Possible effects of Vivarail going into administration?

Following this news: Vivarail to enter administration, I thought it may be useful have a thread to enable people to speculate on potential knock-on effects this may cause. (Note: We already have a thread for Alternative solutions for the Marston Vale, but this thread can be used to discuss...

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