Voyagers faster than Pendolinos?

[route:oxford]

I stopped travelling from Scotland direct to Oxford in 2012 due to the nuisance of changing trains at Brum and the scrum at Wolverhampton on the way south.

It also tends to be cheaper to take the X90 to Baker Street then walk along to Kings Cross for an East Coast service... Ridiculous pre 9am XC fares don't help.

I thought I'd give the XC/WC route another try but find that now the post Pendolinisation Birmingham - Scotland services are timetabled for around 4h15m instead of the post-Voyagerisation schedule of 3h59m.

National rail enquiries actually recommends people disembark from the 9-car/11-car Pendolino and pile onto the usually 4-car Voyager!

What's going on?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Not sure about their top speed, but Voyagers can certainly accelerate faster than Pendolinos!

 

[Qwerty133]

Not sure about their top speed, but Voyagers can certainly accelerate faster than Pendolinos!

Both 125mph capable, however the pendolinos were designed for 140 IIRC.

 

[WestCoast]

I stopped travelling from Scotland direct to Oxford in 2012 due to the nuisance of changing trains at Brum and the scrum at Wolverhampton on the way south.

It also tends to be cheaper to take the X90 to Baker Street then walk along to Kings Cross for an East Coast service... Ridiculous pre 9am XC fares don't help.

I thought I'd give the XC/WC route another try but find that now the post Pendolinisation Birmingham - Scotland services are timetabled for around 4h15m instead of the post-Voyagerisation schedule of 3h59m.

National rail enquiries actually recommends people disembark from the 9-car/11-car Pendolino and pile onto the usually 4-car Voyager!

What's going on?

I'm a regular between Birmingham and Preston and since the Wolverhampton - Euston and Birmingham New Street - Scotland services have been merged there appears to be an extended wait of around 10 minutes at Wolves on many services. This padding is presumably due to pathing requirements and to factor in delays. In fact, it now means the LM Birmingham - Liverpool services are generally quicker between Birmingham and Crewe.

 

[TOCDriver]

Voyagers will be able to out accelerate the pendolino if they have less weight to pull per horsepower, which is currently the case.

 

[driver_m]

Voyagers will be able to out accelerate the pendolino if they have less weight to pull per horsepower, which is currently the case.

I've never seen the two types go off at the same time. But as a comparison. (highly unscientific) a pendo leaving MK heading north on the down fast will be doing easily over 80 when shutting off at the neutral whether 9/11 cars in eco or boost mode. A 221 will be doing about 75-80. A 350 will leave both for dead from a standing start and takes some time to catch one up.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

IIRC, Pendolinos tend to be marginally quicker over longer non-stop stretches, but the differences are hardly noticeable.

 

[Beveridges]

Numerous Cross Country Voyagers are only running on 3 or 4 engines (out of 5) which means noticeably slower acceleration than a Pendolino.

 

[Carlisle]

Voyagers will be able to out accelerate the pendolino if they have less weight to pull per horsepower, which is currently the case.

Also thought I read that voyagers tilted a few degrees less (at max tilt) than pendilinos resulting is slightly lower EPS speeds for them round some curves on the WCML

 

[dk1]

Could be something to do with the booked layover (12 mins I think) at Wolverhampton that started last December to combine the Scotland-Brum with the Wolves-Euston.

 

[route:oxford]

Could be something to do with the booked layover (12 mins I think) at Wolverhampton that started last December to combine the Scotland-Brum with the Wolves-Euston.

This, from a passenger perspective, simply doesn't make sense...

Why put on a 9/11 car train to take passengers as far Wolverhampton then tell them to disembark and board an already packed 4 car Voyager to reach their destination 15 minutes quicker?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's purely down to the way the Euston-Wolverhampton and Birmingham-Scotland legs were merged, with longer dwell times at these stations.

While some EPS speeds for Voyagers are less than Pendolinos (because they have a lower maximum tilt capability), it is hardly noticeable in the schedules.
The nn07 Euston-Liverpool 390 is given 94 minutes to Crewe (one stop at Stafford).
The nn10 Euston-Chester 221 is given 97 minutes (one stop at Milton Keynes).

 

[andyb2706]

It must be something to do with the timings on the southern section of the WC because hasn't the Voyagers had their tilt mode removed by XC so that when you get up into Cumbria they can not take advantage of the Enhanced Passenger Speeds of the Pendos?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It must be something to do with the timings on the southern section of the WC because hasn't the Voyagers had their tilt mode removed by XC so that when you get up into Cumbria they can not take advantage of the Enhanced Passenger Speeds of the Pendos?

XC don't operate through Cumbria any more.
All VT's Voyagers are 221s and can tilt.

TP's services though (185 and 350) can't, so are limited to 100/110mph and non-EPS speeds.

 

[driver_m]

It must be something to do with the timings on the southern section of the WC because hasn't the Voyagers had their tilt mode removed by XC so that when you get up into Cumbria they can not take advantage of the Enhanced Passenger Speeds of the Pendos?

XC 221's have had their tilt isolated permanently whereas ours are fully tilting on all the WCML. Timings for a 221 are slightly longer than a 390 ie 13 mins Euston-Watford whereas a 390 is 12 mins. It takes a 221 quite a bit longer to reach 125mph.

 

[Boodiggy]

Also thought I read that voyagers tilted a few degrees less (at max tilt) than pendilinos resulting is slightly lower EPS speeds for them round some curves on the WCML

That is correct, there are quite a few locations on the wcml this happens

 

[Warbonnet]

Anyone know the horse power rating of a Pendolino?
I know that the 221's are 750 HP per car. (Cummins QSK19)
That's a fair bit of poke for a 5 car set.

 

[TOCDriver]

Anyone know the horse power rating of a Pendolino?
I know that the 221's are 750 HP per car. (Cummins QSK19)
That's a fair bit of poke for a 5 car set.

They're at least 5,000 horsepower. Torque, I don't know - and torque is more important when it comes to acceleration. My bet is, is that the Pendolino, pulling equal mass under idenitical conditions, would easily out accelerate a voyager simply because it's torque (or pulling power) is instantly available, unlike the diesel engine which has to come on boost, and that takes a bit of time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Anyone know the horse power rating of a Pendolino?
I know that the 221's are 750 HP per car. (Cummins QSK19)
That's a fair bit of poke for a 5 car set.

9-car is 5.1MW, 11-car 5.95MW (6840/7980hp).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_390

 

[Nym]

They're at least 5,000 horsepower. Torque, I don't know - and torque is more important when it comes to acceleration. My bet is, is that the Pendolino, pulling equal mass under idenitical conditions, would easily out accelerate a voyager simply because it's torque (or pulling power) is instantly available, unlike the diesel engine which has to come on boost, and that takes a bit of time.

No it doesn't. It's a Diesel Electric that provides a generated DC busline to IGBT invertors, the same as what happens at the end state drives on Class 221s. It's not like the diesel electrics of old that are directly linked.

It's just that the generators don't go to full for the first couple of seconds (mainly because you could never use it).

 

[HSTEd]

Also AIUI the power of a Pendolino is measured at its wheelhubs, whereas the power of a Voyager is based on the output of its QSK-9s which is measured at the alternator.
1hp on a Pendo gets you more than 1hp on a Voyager for this reason.

 

[222001]

A Voyager will out accelerate a 390 up to about 60mph where they lose their edge. The power on the Voyager is at the lower end of the speed range. A 390 would easily beat a Voyager up to 125.