Voyagers for Stirling-Euston?

[LNW-GW Joint]

Modern Railways (Oct, p15) is saying that Grand Union is looking at cascaded Avanti Voyagers for its Stirling-Euston open access WCML services from 2025.
This would be instead of Mk4 or new-build AT300s.
The 221s would retain tilt capability, and avoid any problems with the power supply on the route.
However, it rather defeats the aim of removing diesels under the wires on the WCML.

So after XC take 7x221s, this would utilise maybe 5 more sets of the 20 to be released by Avanti.

Grand Union Trains has revised its application for a London to Stirling service via the WCML, with off-lease 22x rolling stock proposed with a new start date of 2025.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

So after XC take 7x221s, this would utilise maybe 5 more sets of the 20 to be released by Avanti.

Avanti only have 18 221s left, 2 are already with GC.

 

[AndrewE]

Oh no!!! We have a fully electrified main line from Mossend to Euston, Avanti are getting class 805s to reduce diesel under the wires (and eliminate emissions through the towns and cities they serve)... and then we allow or even encourage the wonderful free market to run polluting, notoriously fuel-hungry Voyagers the whole length of the country.
If Stirling needs a direct service to England (which it probably does, given that the Clansman used to run successfully) then pay Avanti to use a bi-mode for this - or hire one out to Grand Union. Of course that wouldn't work either, as they won't have the traction knowledge.

I know, why not abandon the pretence of competing tin-pot companies and have one railway which can manage its staff to optimise route and traction knowledge?

 

[D6130]

We have a fully electrified main line from Mossend to Euston,

In fact we now have a fully-electrified main line from Stirling to Euston! I totally agree that it would be a nonsense to use diesel traction under the wires for all that distance....but all of the surplus class 91s and Mark 4 stock have been converted into razorblades.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I can understand why GU are looking at Voyagers but some common sense needs to be applied with respect to Net Zero. Had the route been 50% or more without wires, diesel only could be deemed reasonable. However, Voyagers can’t be deemed a long term solution but with no Mk4s left, there aren’t many options to retain 125MPH..

 

[AndrewE]

In fact we now have a fully-electrified main line from Stirling to Euston! I totally agree that it would be a nonsense to use diesel traction under the wires for all that distance....but all of the surplus class 91s and Mark 4 stock have been converted into razorblades.

Better dig out the stored 90s from the trees at Crewe ETD then... and put up with a lower top speed - it's supposed to be a bargain basement operator isn't it? If not then tell them they have to invest in electrics.
What an incompetent country we have become!

 

[XCTurbostar]

Grand Union is likely targeting the use of Voyagers since they will provide the smallest losses in pathing.

MK5a’s and Class 93s would be give 110MPH but I suspect the TAA will be for 125MPH max.

 

[Carlisle]

I can understand why GU are looking at Voyagers but some common sense needs to be applied with respect to Net Zero.

let’s wait until Freight operators have to apply the same rules .

 

[AndrewE]

Given the problems/restriction on diesels at Marylebone, I wonder if we shall see other Boroughs putting their foot down and forbidding any extra diesel services into termini such as Padd, Eus and King's X?
It's madness for 1 bit of the (UK) railway to be going to bi-modes then allowing another operator to immediately put the diesel emissions straight back in to the city centre.

indeed, but let’s wait until Freight operators have to apply the same rules .

as they should, of course... (and road haulage too, so that traffic doesn't just get displaced onto the "cheapest" worst-polluting mode.)

 

[Energy]

They still need ORR approval for Stirling to Euston. I'm not really convinced by their business, most OA operations (Lumo is the exception) go for big-ticket routes with a bit added on the end and I don't really see that with the proposed Stirling to Euston. Crewe already has good competition between Avanti and LNWR (journey times are surprisingly close) while Preston and Carlisle aren't massive.

Going by their website they are planning for their trains to be 2+1... but while having fairly priced tickets? Cheap fairs and a premium interior really worked well for Wrexham and Shropshire...

Their Carmarthen to London route will get a lot of traffic from Cardiff.

 

[Deepgreen]

Oh no!!! We have a fully electrified main line from Mossend to Euston, Avanti are getting class 805s to reduce diesel under the wires (and eliminate emissions through the towns and cities they serve)... and then we allow or even encourage the wonderful free market to run polluting, notoriously fuel-hungry Voyagers the whole length of the country.
If Stirling needs a direct service to England (which it probably does, given that the Clansman used to run successfully) then pay Avanti to use a bi-mode for this - or hire one out to Grand Union. Of course that wouldn't work either, as they won't have the traction knowledge.

I know, why not abandon the pretence of competing tin-pot companies and have one railway which can manage its staff to optimise route and traction knowledge?

YES! They don't even compete at point of use almost all the time anyway.

 

[31160]

This is a truly stupid idea, I would be surprised if whatever local authority this ends in will just let this happen, as someone said above 100% of the journey can be done under wires

 

[Energy]

This is a truly stupid idea, I would be surprised if whatever local authority this ends in will just let this happen, as someone said above 100% of the journey can be done under wires

There isn't really a legal way to stop this, track access agreements can only specify that they need to meet the paths NR give.

It'll be interesting where Grand Union plan to maintain them, the 805 and 807s are planned for Oxley, near Wolverhampton, and the 221s are at Central Rivers, near Birmingham. Stirling to London doesn't go near to either of these depots.

 

[dk1]

Having tilt makes this quite a sensible idea really. The WCML won’t lose its 221s after all

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Having tilt makes this quite a sensible idea really. The WCML won’t lose its 221s after all

They could also start back from Perth with 221s.

 

[Chester1]

I can understand why GU are looking at Voyagers but some common sense needs to be applied with respect to Net Zero. Had the route been 50% or more without wires, diesel only could be deemed reasonable. However, Voyagers can’t be deemed a long term solution but with no Mk4s left, there aren’t many options to retain 125MPH..

As a long term rolling stock choice you are right. However, in the short term the only available electric option would be Mark V sets hauled by 110mph electric locos. The former are unreliable and the latter may not be available. Using Voyagers would allow the service to get up and running in 2025, while new build EMUs would be much later. There seems to be reliable media reports that 7 x 221s are going to XC, Grand Central have taken 2, that leaves up to 11 available for Grand Union. They could start both Scottish and Welsh services with 221s and tender for new stock at a more leisurely pace.

 

[dk1]

They could also start back from Perth with 221s.

Yes that’s another bonus in utilising this fleet.

 

[Speed43125]

I was under the impression that the Avanti 80x stock would be getting special clearance to run beyond 110 in certain places and that would only be possibly by replacing the speed limit signs currently used for Voyager EPS speeds? I believe there's a limit of 3 different speed differentials allowed at any one location. Dunno how that would work with this suggestion?

 

[Sniffingmoose]

Time to extened the London ULEZ to cover railways.

 

[hexagon789]

I was under the impression that the Avanti 80x stock would be getting special clearance to run beyond 110 in certain places and that would only be possibly by replacing the speed limit signs currently used for Voyager EPS speeds? I believe there's a limit of 3 different speed differentials allowed at any one location. Dunno how that would work with this suggestion?

Southern WCML only and using a new MU speed profile. (Mostly 115/120 where the EPS is 125, but will be some MU 125.)

Consequently, anything passed to use MU differentials should be able to use the new profile.

 

[BlueLeanie]

This sounds like a perfectly reasonable plan to allow market testing of a route, using modern 125mph capable units, ahead of a purchase of modern 805 (or similar) bimodes).

 

[Blindtraveler]

I wonder what the SNP green administration in Scotland who make of this? If service launch is anticipated for 2025 then this would coincide rather nicely or not as the case may be with the next Scottish parliamentary elections at which unless things take a radical turn for the better the SNP are most likely toast, but they could put up a stink anyway if these plans look like coming anywhere near fruition, but quite honestly we've had so many jacquanori stories from grand Union about one thing and another over the years I suspect this is likely just another installment

 

[InkyScrolls]

Sounds like perfect sense to me. And what's more efficient - reusing existing stock, or manufacturing entirely new trains, with all the rare earth metals required in electric traction, and which would no doubt be shipped halfway round the world?

 

[The Planner]

There isn't really a legal way to stop this, track access agreements can only specify that they need to meet the paths NR give.

It'll be interesting where Grand Union plan to maintain them, the 805 and 807s are planned for Oxley, near Wolverhampton, and the 221s are at Central Rivers, near Birmingham. Stirling to London doesn't go near to either of these depots.

Central Rivers is a short hop off up the Lichfield chord.

 

[dave59]

Price of deisel needs to rise to swat these mindless ideas. Same with all the FOCs now using 66s and holding up other trains north of Preston, deisel should be banned on the route by NR as it effectively was 40 YEARS ago by BR.

 

[43096]

Central Rivers is a short hop off up the Lichfield chord.

There's nothing to say the at the 221s have to be maintained at Muddy Waters. If there's capacity, Alstom at Wembley would also be an option.

 

[dk1]

Price of deisel needs to rise to swat these mindless ideas. Same with all the FOCs now using 66s and holding up other trains north of Preston, deisel should be banned on the route by NR as it effectively was 40 YEARS ago by BR.

No chance of that.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Price of deisel needs to rise to swat these mindless ideas. Same with all the FOCs now using 66s and holding up other trains north of Preston, deisel should be banned on the route by NR as it effectively was 40 YEARS ago by BR.

And what do you propose using to replace said 66s in the immediate term?

 

[dave59]

The 66 can be barred tomorrow from Midlands-Scotland Class 4 trains by increasing use of Class 88, 90, 91 and 92 and others by the forthcoming 93 and 99. Work on the OHLE was done to facilitate this yet the FOC's are using deisel to save a few quid. Total madness. A deisel service to London from Stirling equally so.

 

[RichW1]

Not a new user here. Merely forgot all my details after an absence.

The freight companies are private concerns. Their primary motive has to be profit else they don’t operate and misallocation of resources pushes up prices and is wasteful. The issue is electricity (due to the worshipped net zero) is too expensive. No economy grows with expensive energy. The results are crystal clear. The Voyagers are a poor train but the right decision under the circumstances. The sad part about 800’s is, they are slower than the Pendolinos and slower than the Voyagers they are replacing. Liverpool will be 10-15 minutes slower to London. It is criminal really. Billions and tops speeds decline by intent. Voyagers will at least keep a 125mph timetable.