Voyagers

[Elecman]

What ever happened to the idea of putting a electric traction carriage into the existing Virgin Voyager sets to enable them to run under the wires on Electric power?

 

[Emyr]

See this thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79563&highlight=evoyager

 

[Elecman]

Thanks

 

[Big Chris]

With the electrification going on would it be practical to remove the diesel engines in the Voyagers and add a pantograph coach for fully electrified services. Reducing weight, increasing capacity and creating the space required for the electrical gubbins?

 

[dk1]

It's a very costly option apparently. Shame as seems a great idea. Would mean starting up an assembly line for what may be quite a small order & then the cost of altering the fleet. If it's agreed for all Voyagers & Meridians then maybe but I won't hold my breath.

 

[fgwrich]

It's a very costly option apparently. Shame as seems a great idea. Would mean starting up an assembly line for what may be quite a small order & then the cost of altering the fleet. If it's agreed for all Voyagers & Meridians then maybe but I won't hold my breath.

I was wondering about this last night on my journey back from Birmingham - Adding an additional coach would be fine and much needed for the 220s, but I wonder how the 221s could be converted. The EMT fleet issue could be got around by reducing and swapping 222 sets around and additional vehicles for the 4 car units, this creating a more standard fleet of 5 & 7 car units - or adding 1/3 more coaches to bulk them up to 5 & 9 or 10 car 222s with Panto. This assuming they stay on the Midland Mainline of course.

 

[dk1]

I was wondering about this last night on my journey back from Birmingham - Adding an additional coach would be fine and much needed for the 220s, but I wonder how the 221s could be converted. The EMT fleet issue could be got around by reducing and swapping 222 sets around and additional vehicles for the 4 car units, this creating a more standard fleet of 5 & 7 car units - or adding 1/3 more coaches to bulk them up to 5 & 9 or 10 car 222s with Panto. This assuming they stay on the Midland Mainline of course.

I would imagine 'Baby Pendos' or something similar will be the way to go with the Voyager family eventually cascading to other routes. All a few years away yet mate.

 

[Kite159]

I would imagine that cross country might end up with something like the 800/801s if their introduction goes well.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I would imagine that cross country might end up with something like the 800/801s if their introduction goes well.

I know that 800s don't have 3rd rail, assuming they did could they be used on the SWML from Poole to where they turn off at Basingstoke without fouling the guage or some part that's not a 3rd rail shoe coming into contact with the 3rd rail?

 

[Kite159]

I would imagine by the time they get something like 800/801s the wires will be up to Southampton (so 10+ years), so will only need diesel to Bournemouth

 

[alexl92]

I might be mistaken but surely what we don't need right now is diesels being converted to electric power? There are discussions all over this forum about how more DMUs are needed in various places... maybe in ten years' time but definitely not now.

 

[Envoy]

No point in throwing more money after bad at these horrible trains. Leave them as they are and then switch them to non electrified routes according to demand.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I might be mistaken but surely what we don't need right now is diesels being converted to electric power? There are discussions all over this forum about how more DMUs are needed in various places... maybe in ten years' time but definitely not now.

These DMUs are not suitable for anything other than middle to long distance express work. They use a lot of fuel in comparison to a sprinter with as many seats.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Personally what I'd like to see done to the voyagers (as they are too young to feel the heat of Booth's torches), is for them to be taken in for refurb, one by one, everything stripped out, the equipment and wiring changed and moved, and to come out as 222s.

It's weird, the 220s and the 222s are fundamentally the same train.

Same body shell, engine, generators, motors, bogies, but the 222 seems so much better.

 

[Ash Bridge]

These DMUs are not suitable for anything other than middle to long distance express work. They use a lot of fuel in comparison to a sprinter with as many seats.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Personally what I'd like to see done to the voyagers (as they are too young to feel the heat of Booth's torches), is for them to be taken in for refurb, one by one, everything stripped out, the equipment and wiring changed and moved, and to come out as 222s.

It's weird, the 220s and the 222s are fundamentally the same train.

Same body shell, engine, generators, motors, bogies, but the 222 seems so much better.

They obviously learned a lot from the flaws with the earlier 220/221s (says he who has yet to sample a 222):roll: seriously must get a trip in on one sometime soon.

 

[RichmondCommu]

They obviously learned a lot from the flaws with the earlier 220/221s (says he who has yet to sample a 222):roll: seriously must get a trip in on one sometime soon.

I use them all the time to head up to Derby and they are good trains. In fact I now prefer them to HST's.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I use them all the time to head up to Derby and they are good trains. In fact I now prefer them to HST's.

Gosh, that's a strong statement! Not that I doubt you, but couldn't imagine saying I preferred a Voyager over a HST. Can only mean the Meridian must be vastly better than its earlier cousins then.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Gosh, that's a strong statement! Not that I doubt you, but couldn't imagine saying I preferred a Voyager over a HST. Can only mean the Meridian must be vastly better than its earlier cousins then.

Yes much better than the 220's and the 221's, at least in my opinion. And I've been travelling up and down the MML for the last 27 years (give or take) since I moved to London.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

These DMUs are not suitable for anything other than middle to long distance express work. They use a lot of fuel in comparison to a sprinter with as many seats.

Can Voyagers run in service with some of the engines shutdown (to save fuel)?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Can Voyagers run in service with some of the engines shutdown (to save fuel)?

I've travelled all the way from Exeter to Stockport on a 221 where the engine in the car I was in was shut down. Not sure whether by design or If problematic.

 

[dk1]

Can Voyagers run in service with some of the engines shutdown (to save fuel)?

It was once stated that certain routes can maintain schedules even if losing 2 engines on a 221. No wonder XC get the golden spanner every time.

 

[PHILIPE]

Can Voyagers run in service with some of the engines shutdown (to save fuel)?

I believe it has been done by XC. Perhaps somebody could shed further light on it

 

[Impey0711]

I was on XC 221 from york-sheffield the engine on my carriage was shut down it may have been mechanical who knows but didn't affect timings train departed on time and arrived in sheffield on time

 

[cjmillsnun]

Can Voyagers run in service with some of the engines shutdown (to save fuel)?

They can, but they are still juicy compared to a sprinter.

 

[samuelmorris]

I've only had two trips on a 222 (one return journey), which were about as different as it gets - a saturday morning service containing a large proportion of the passengers from multiple cancelled East Coast services due to a wires down, so a 2h25 trip in the vestibule with 30 other people - then on the return, a weekday off-peak where I had almost the entire coach to myself. I personally found the latter (i.e. the proper test) very comfortable and pleasant, the underfloor engine design really didn't bother me at all. That said, due to travelling with oversize luggage I travel in vestibules a lot, so I probably appreciate having a seat & table for the duration of my journey far more than most!

I don't think Voyagers are as bad as many people make out, I find the ride quality perfectly acceptable, the engine noise isn't horrendous, certainly not compared to some of the sprinters (excluding 158s) - the cabin might be a little claustrophobic but for long journeys I actually don't mind that - has almost a 'cosy' feel. Either way it's still preferable to the travel experience on the vast majority of public road transport, IMHO.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a much less useful unit to convert to all-electric operation at this stage since with the exception of the few Virgin units, I primarily associate Voyagers with cross country as they go pretty much anywhere and hence get used for long convoluted routes like Penzance to Glasgow. Given all the individual parts of those routes that would have to be electrified, the Voyagers seem like the last thing that should be electrified, save for DMUs used on some rural branch lines such as those in Cornwall.

As for the XC timings, they are incredibly slack, but for good reason. Almost every time I look at an XC diagram in RTT I will see that at some point along its route it's become up to 15 minutes late, which has been made up by some point further down the line. The slack is clearly there for a reason. I find myself wondering what the likelihood is, once almost all the major railway lines are modernised, that the probability of delays in sections like those is reduced to the point where timetables for even cross country routes can be run quite tight - Grand Central's another example - I boarded a GC service on Monday that departed Sunderland 15 mins late and arrived at Kings Cross 5 minutes early. No engineering allowances etc. on that diagram either, beyond what's normal. I'm just wondering, when you add it all up - just how much you could bring journey times down / reduce required unit allocation by, nationally, when you were in a position to tighten up timetables like that.

Anyway, off-topic rant. tl;dr 222s better than 220s/221s but I really don't think any of them are bad - whilst I can't speak for 222s, I imagine 220s/221s are staying diesel for the foreseeable future.

 

[johnnyp_360]

They can, but they are still juicy compared to a sprinter.

would this be because a sprinter does 75/90mph vs 125mph? Will a voyager still use up more fuel than a sprinter at lower speeds?

 

[samuelmorris]

Bit of a tricky one to assess, that - do you divide by the comparative length, comparative seating capacity, comparative number of vehicles?

 

[PHILIPE]

I've only had two trips on a 222 (one return journey), which were about as different as it gets - a saturday morning service containing a large proportion of the passengers from multiple cancelled East Coast services due to a wires down, so a 2h25 trip in the vestibule with 30 other people - then on the return, a weekday off-peak where I had almost the entire coach to myself. I personally found the latter (i.e. the proper test) very comfortable and pleasant, the underfloor engine design really didn't bother me at all. That said, due to travelling with oversize luggage I travel in vestibules a lot, so I probably appreciate having a seat & table for the duration of my journey far more than most!

I don't think Voyagers are as bad as many people make out, I find the ride quality perfectly acceptable, the engine noise isn't horrendous, certainly not compared to some of the sprinters (excluding 158s) - the cabin might be a little claustrophobic but for long journeys I actually don't mind that - has almost a 'cosy' feel. Either way it's still preferable to the travel experience on the vast majority of public road transport, IMHO.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a much less useful unit to convert to all-electric operation at this stage since with the exception of the few Virgin units, I primarily associate Voyagers with cross country as they go pretty much anywhere and hence get used for long convoluted routes like Penzance to Glasgow. Given all the individual parts of those routes that would have to be electrified, the Voyagers seem like the last thing that should be electrified, save for DMUs used on some rural branch lines such as those in Cornwall.

As for the XC timings, they are incredibly slack, but for good reason. Almost every time I look at an XC diagram in RTT I will see that at some point along its route it's become up to 15 minutes late, which has been made up by some point further down the line. The slack is clearly there for a reason. I find myself wondering what the likelihood is, once almost all the major railway lines are modernised, that the probability of delays in sections like those is reduced to the point where timetables for even cross country routes can be run quite tight - Grand Central's another example - I boarded a GC service on Monday that departed Sunderland 15 mins late and arrived at Kings Cross 5 minutes early. No engineering allowances etc. on that diagram either, beyond what's normal. I'm just wondering, when you add it all up - just how much you could bring journey times down / reduce required unit allocation by, nationally, when you were in a position to tighten up timetables like that.

Anyway, off-topic rant. tl;dr 222s better than 220s/221s but I really don't think any of them are bad - whilst I can't speak for 222s, I imagine 220s/221s are staying diesel for the foreseeable future.

There is some pretty nice scenery along the Voyager routes but unless you're lucky, you can't see it to appreciate it because seats are not lined up with the windows.

 

[455driver]

Can Voyagers run in service with some of the engines shutdown (to save fuel)?

They tried that, it just meant that the remaining engines had to work harder to maintain the schedule. End result was very little fuel saved.
They are rather lardy trains to lug around weighing between 45 and 55 tonnes per coach compared to a 158 which only weighs 38.5 tonnes per coach!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is some pretty nice scenery along the Voyager routes but unless you're lucky, you can't see it to appreciate it because seats are not lined up with the windows.

Or sit in the fully aligned hybrid coach if it's VT.

Neil

 

[ainsworth74]

There is some pretty nice scenery along the Voyager routes but unless you're lucky, you can't see it to appreciate it because seats are not lined up with the windows.

Oh come on! I accept that not all seats line up perfectly with the windows but it isn't so bad that you need luck to get a seat with a view. I've travelled on plenty of Voyagers in my time and the only time I've been stuck with no view is when it's late at night and I couldn't care less about the view. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous in the extreme.