VTWC doors closing 4 minutes before departure

[AlterEgo]

Any station where the time is 5 minutes. It simply isn't enough; the standard should be 10 except specific connections effectively guaranteed because of operations to be same or cross platform, e.g. LM to LM/SN at Leighton Buzzard.


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That's possibly true but it would result in many connections no longer being offered.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I've just found out something that I wasn't originally told.

He had a bike with him and still thought that the 2 minute rule (although trying to arrive earlier) took effect, despite this being 5 minutes. But surely something about this should have been on the boards at Euston?

 

[gray1404]

I think he should write to Virgin about this. 4 minutes is still enough time to load a bike onto a train. Unless Virgin Trains have made it expressly clear to customer travelling with bikes otherwise. They will most likely respond with one of their £25 fob off Rail Travel Vouchers. Poor shown on VT. 4 minutes is enough time.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think he should write to Virgin about this. 4 minutes is still enough time to load a bike onto a train. Unless Virgin Trains have made it expressly clear to customer travelling with bikes otherwise. They will most likely respond with one of their £25 fob off Rail Travel Vouchers. Poor shown on VT. 4 minutes is enough time.

It isn't really enough time. This requires a walk, with a bike, of over 250 metres, someone to help load it and secure it, and then for the customer to board the train.

I agree it should probably be advertised but common sense should also prevail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think VT do advertise a minimum of 5 minutes at all stations if you have a bike. So that piece of additional information would explain the situation.


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[trainophile]

Minimum connection times presume that the passenger is familiar with the layout of the station, and that there are no broken down lifts or escalators.

12 minutes at Birmingham New Street would be challenging for me, and I am now reasonably familiar with the station (although I couldn't find the Virgin Lounge last week, even though I've been there before!), so if someone who doesn't travel frequently, or has not used that station before, tried to make a connection from one end of it to the other in 12 minutes, given the usual crowded environment, they would have to have all their wits about them. And that's just the able bodied!

(Edit: I know we are not discussing BHM, my comments are for illustration of the general principle.)

 

[transmanche]

Can you provide an example of any station where the minimum connection time is so tight that 30 seconds less would make it a problem?

Shrewsbury, for any connection involving platform 3?

(For those who aren't aware, to access platform three you have to exit the station completely as platform 3 has its own entrance accessed via a set of stairs in the station approach.)

 

[philthetube]

I've just found out something that I wasn't originally told.

He had a bike with him and still thought that the 2 minute rule (although trying to arrive earlier) took effect, despite this being 5 minutes. But surely something about this should have been on the boards at Euston?

Would 15 minutes be reasonable cycling time Victoria to Euston, because you could not take it on the tube?

 

[transmanche]

Would 15 minutes be reasonable cycling time Victoria to Euston, because you could not take it on the tube?

I think you'd have to go some to do it in 15 mins. TfL's Journey Planner suggests it takes 22 mins at a moderate pace (mainly back streets, average speed 16 km/h), or 17 mins at a fast pace (most direct route, average speed 20 km/h).

 

[Agent_Squash]

I think you'd have to go some to do it in 15 mins. TfL's Journey Planner suggests it takes 22 mins at a moderate pace (mainly back streets, average speed 16 km/h), or 17 mins at a fast pace (most direct route, average speed 20 km/h).

He tends to cycle about 25 km/h (competitive cyclist), so it was definitely squeezing it!

 

[Flying Snail]

Shrewsbury, for any connection involving platform 3?

(For those who aren't aware, to access platform three you have to exit the station completely as platform 3 has its own entrance accessed via a set of stairs in the station approach.)

It is far from ideal and a cumbersome layout for sure but would it really take more than 4 minutes to go down the stairs, through the subway, out the main door, walk to the p3 entrance (about 20 metres apart) and up the second set of stairs?

 

[Iskra]

I think he should write to Virgin about this. 4 minutes is still enough time to load a bike onto a train. Unless Virgin Trains have made it expressly clear to customer travelling with bikes otherwise. They will most likely respond with one of their £25 fob off Rail Travel Vouchers. Poor shown on VT. 4 minutes is enough time.

I'm not convinced they will. It is probably on their website advising that you arrive 10 minutes before departure- I know it is on a number of TOC's websites, however I haven't checked the VT website specifically. So they could easily just point that out.

Although I too doubt the veracity of the 4-minute claim, isn't the person involved entitled to delay repay in this case anyway?

Personally; TOC's advertise their door-closing policies very clearly; the onus is on the customer to be there in reasonable time; people need to take responsibility for their own timeliness- not blame TOC's, staff, or make up stories to create faux-outrage on the Internet.

Additionally, could the OP tell us whether they were allowed on the next train free of additional charge, and if they subsequently claimed delay repay?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, it is. Thought it was 5 but it is 10.

As a reservation is required I assume he will have been told this at the time of reservation.

 

[PHILIPE]

Shrewsbury, for any connection involving platform 3?

(For those who aren't aware, to access platform three you have to exit the station completely as platform 3 has its own entrance accessed via a set of stairs in the station approach.)

What happened at Shrewsbury were alterations that took place to the station either in the 80s or early 90s. There was direct access from the platform to the subway but as a result some rebuilding and refurbishing the entrance meant that the relocation of the booking office blocked off the access in the subway. At the time it didn't matter as Platform 3 had been closed but as time wore on increased traffic necessitated it's re-opening with an entrance leading to the blocked off stairs having to be provided outside the main building. The blocked off entrance to the platform is outside the ticket barriers so obviously the new entrance is now. Having to pass through the barriers can make the connection even tighter, especially if busy..

 

[transmanche]

It is far from ideal and a cumbersome layout for sure but would it really take more than 4 minutes to go down the stairs, through the subway, out the main door, walk to the p3 entrance (about 20 metres apart) and up the second set of stairs?

Well I reckon it could do if you have luggage, stop and turn back because you think you're going the wrong way when you reach the station exit, have to fumble for your tickets to get through the barriers and then clamber up the stairs.

Because that's what I did when I first had to make a connection on platform 3.

 

[gray1404]

That 10 minute time stated on the VT website is not workable at every station they serve. What about stations where the train in only booked to call for a minute or so.

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/experience/bikes

 

[Bletchleyite]

That 10 minute time stated on the VT website is not workable at every station they serve. What about stations where the train in only booked to call for a minute or so.

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/experience/bikes

The rule is that you should be on the platform 10 minutes before departure so you have time to find where the cycle accommodation will stop and get there without causing a hazard by running along the platform (or worse riding) with a bicycle, not on the train. The OP wasn't, as he hadn't passed the barrier in time.

The website seems to explain this wrongly.

 

[gray1404]

5 minutes seems more reasonable. Although if a customer is interchanging from another train with a short (minimum) connection time or late running service this may not even then be possible.

Of course I am thinking of stations other then Euston here.

 

[johnmoly]

30 seconds is the time allowed at all Merseyrail termini.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I'm not convinced they will. It is probably on their website advising that you arrive 10 minutes before departure- I know it is on a number of TOC's websites, however I haven't checked the VT website specifically. So they could easily just point that out.

Although I too doubt the veracity of the 4-minute claim, isn't the person involved entitled to delay repay in this case anyway?

Personally; TOC's advertise their door-closing policies very clearly; the onus is on the customer to be there in reasonable time; people need to take responsibility for their own timeliness- not blame TOC's, staff, or make up stories to create faux-outrage on the Internet.

Additionally, could the OP tell us whether they were allowed on the next train free of additional charge, and if they subsequently claimed delay repay?

My friend was allowed on a train a hour later without charge, and he has not claimed delay replay.

In addition, as he got his tickets through his employer, he said he did not get told this when he received his tickets as of course he didn't book them.

Also, regarding your point - the connection that was originally planned had more than enough time to transfer to Euston from Victoria, but earlier delays put this back.

 

[gray1404]

I sounds like your friend might have a valid delay repay claim then. I am thinking that this would be from the TOC who operated the service into Victoria as had this been on time then your friend would have made their connection at Euston without having these problems.

If the inbound service into Victoria was delayed I would certainly claim Delay Repay from GTR or South Eastern.

 

[AlterEgo]

If he had a non folding bike, how did he get to Euston? Because you can't take it on the tube.

He doesn't have a valid delay repay claim if he didn't take the tube between Euston and Victoria, the only prescribed route to make the connection.

 

[miami]

You can take a bike from Victoria to Euston Square on the tube.
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Any station where the time is 5 minutes. It simply isn't enough; the standard should be 10 except specific connections effectively guaranteed because of operations to be same or cross platform, e.g. LM to LM/SN at Leighton Buzzard.


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5 minutes is already ridiculously high, the 10 or 15 minute connections that appear at larger stations simply turn people off the train network.

The only reason you need such a large time is because trains are often 5 minutes late yet still "on time".

 

[najaB]

You can take a bike from Victoria to Euston Square on the tube.

Depending on the time of day though.

5 minutes is already ridiculously high, the 10 or 15 minute connections that appear at larger stations simply turn people off the train network.

The only reason you need such a large time is because trains are often 5 minutes late yet still "on time".

I don't know that I agree with that. Connection times for a station are based on the time that the 'average' passenger would take to make the longest likely connection. If I arrived at platform 8w at Edinburgh and had to get myself and my suitcase across to a train on platform 2 without being familiar with the layout of the station, ten minutes wouldn't be nearly enough.

 

[The Planner]

5 minutes is already ridiculously high, the 10 or 15 minute connections that appear at larger stations simply turn people off the train network.

The only reason you need such a large time is because trains are often 5 minutes late yet still "on time".

Doesn't apply to trains in the middle of their journey though does it.

 

[philthetube]

Doesn't apply to trains in the middle of their journey though does it.

You may be able to take a bike from Victoria to Euston (square) on the tube, but there is no hope of doing it in 15 mins

 

[All Line Rover]

5 minutes is already ridiculously high, the 10 or 15 minute connections that appear at larger stations simply turn people off the train network.

Yes, 5 minutes is plenty long enough for a commuter. Euston should be 7 minutes, not 15.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Doesn't apply to trains in the middle of their journey though does it.

Its worse, because trains can be regularly, or almost always, sufficiently late to break connections at intermediate stations but still classed as "on time" (as is common with VTWC services at stations such as Stoke, Crewe, Stockport and Warrington).

 

[The Planner]

Are we talking PPM 5 minutes here? If a long distance Cross Country train is 5 late at Birmingham New St it is 5 late and not on time and doesn't appear in any statistics as such.

 

[najaB]

Yes, 5 minutes is plenty long enough for a commuter. Euston should be 7 minutes, not 15.

Connection times have to be based on the infrequent rather than regular traveller or the infrequent traveller would likely miss their train. Just because it's possible to go from Birmingham New Street to Moor Street in three minutes doesn't mean that is the time that should be offered by journey planners!

 

[sciisfun]

Connection times have to be based on the infrequent rather than regular traveller or the infrequent traveller would likely miss their train. Just because it's possible to go from Birmingham New Street to Moor Street in three minutes doesn't mean that is the time that should be offered by journey planners!

do we need a 'mad B***ard' connection time for those who feel the need to run everywhere?