VTWC Liverpool to Euston taking longer than usual?

[shadowman]

I'm travelling Liverpool to Euston LPY-EUS) in a few weeks and looking at the amended timetables for the route due to the closure of Lime Street for engineering works, I've noticed the direct journeys are timetabled for a 2hr 25 min journey, but most of the extra time seems to be at the start of the journey as the booked stop at Runcorn is the same time as prior to the closure.

Can anyone explain the reason for this as the usual running time fro West Midlands Railway services in no more than 8 mins? Does it have something to do with the platform used? From going through LPY a few days ago, I noticed passengers boarding the London bound services on an extended platform 4 in the morning, and on our return in the afternoon, a service passed through the station, but not sure which platform it went through.

 

[yorkie]

Yes it is to do with platforming and train lengths.

Virgin have to head towards Lime Street for some distance before reversing, so they are not as quick as West Midlands Trains services, which can proceed directly towards Runcorn as normal.

 

[shadowman]

Yes it is to do with platforming and train lengths.

Virgin have to head towards Lime Street for some distance before reversing, so they are not as quick as West Midlands Trains services, which can proceed directly towards Runcorn as normal.

Thanks for the quick reply - Another question - are the VT services able to run straight into P4 or are they having to make the same manoeuvre on the return EUS-LPY route?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No, they can run from the south straight into P4 (Down Slow), but not reverse back south without the shunt northwards to reach the Up Fast.
They are given 15 minutes for the reversal.

 

[sjoh]

I can't think of many passenger services which make such a reversing move (i.e not in a station called at, or in this case in a station at all) whilst passengers are aboard. Any others come to mind?
Unless I'm mistaken, the Virgin services currently terminate in P4, wait for passengers to alight and then board, before continuing towards Liverpool a short distance, turning around and then running back through Liverpool South Parkway P3 non-stop?

 

[Marton]

I can't think of many passenger services which make such a reversing move (i.e not in a station called at, or in this case in a station at all) whilst passengers are aboard. Any others come to mind?

Battersby on the Esk Valley. Regular reversing moves and some same platform crossing moves.

Last week at least one Darlington Saltburn service diverted via Stockton. Not planned, but it meant an unusual route.

 

[jopsuk]

the services that don't call at Coombe Valley Junction Halt...

 

[Deafdoggie]

Not exactly regular, but I was on the Summer Saturday EMT HST from Skegness-Derby, and that reversed at Trowell Junction.

 

[Berneylegs]

Bere Alston station, reverse to continue to Plymouth/Gunnislake, Tamar Valley Line

 

[6Gman]

I can't think of many passenger services which make such a reversing move (i.e not in a station called at, or in this case in a station at all) whilst passengers are aboard. Any others come to mind?
Unless I'm mistaken, the Virgin services currently terminate in P4, wait for passengers to alight and then board, before continuing towards Liverpool a short distance, turning around and then running back through Liverpool South Parkway P3 non-stop?

Some posters seem to have missed this distinction.

I'm struggling to think of any regular booked examples other than Coombe Junction if that still happens.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Caledonian sleeper when diverted via east coast main line? Reverses at Wembley or some such place. Probably fails the “regular booked service” test

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

The reversing maneuver done at Liverpool South Parkway has me wondering whether it was practical to terminate the Euston services at that station. Since the platform needed extension, and since it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to actually get the train on it's journey down south, wouldn't it have been better to empty them at Runcorn, park them at Ditton sidings, then bring it back out again for the next journey? It's pretty much what they did when the wall collapsed at Liverpool Lime Street, and it seems the only other thing to do in this case is put on replacement buses.

 

[headshot119]

The reversing maneuver done at Liverpool South Parkway has me wondering whether it was practical to terminate the Euston services at that station. Since the platform needed extension, and since it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to actually get the train on it's journey down south, wouldn't it have been better to empty them at Runcorn, park them at Ditton sidings, then bring it back out again for the next journey? It's pretty much what they did when the wall collapsed at Liverpool Lime Street, and it seems the only other thing to do in this case is put on replacement buses.

Or you can go to South Parkway and maintain a rail connection to Lime Street via Merseyrail.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Or you can go to South Parkway and maintain a rail connection to Lime Street via Merseyrail.

Still doesn't take away the cost of platform construction. Having said that, would it have been any cheaper to have all those replacement bus services?

 

[Kite159]

I can't think of many passenger services which make such a reversing move (i.e not in a station called at, or in this case in a station at all) whilst passengers are aboard. Any others come to mind?
Unless I'm mistaken, the Virgin services currently terminate in P4, wait for passengers to alight and then board, before continuing towards Liverpool a short distance, turning around and then running back through Liverpool South Parkway P3 non-stop?

One which springs to mind is the 2026 Leicester to Lincoln Central service on a Saturday (at least), has a reversal after the crossing to go into Newark North Gate

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Some posters seem to have missed this distinction.

I'm struggling to think of any regular booked examples other than Coombe Junction if that still happens.

You have the 1713 Kyle of Lochalsh-Elgin during the week which uses the Rose St Curve to void Inverness before reversing into the station at Welsh's Bridge Jn.

 

[The Planner]

Still doesn't take away the cost of platform construction. Having said that, would it have been any cheaper to have all those replacement bus services?

Yes it would be cheaper to bus by a long way, but you have to factor in the value of giving passengers a better option of connecting in to the Merseyrail service and a better overall journey. You avoid buses if you can.

 

[clagmonster]

Are they reversing on the up slow or down slow? Working out whether it is the trailing or facing crossover being used. If the trailing, I may need to plan a visit.

 

[causton]

Are they reversing on the up slow or down slow? Working out whether it is the trailing or facing crossover being used. If the trailing, I may need to plan a visit.

The reversal is at "AN 4 signal (Down Slow Line GPLS)" if that helps - don't have a map to confirm it is definitely on the Down Slow though...

 

[sd0733]

The move is out of platform 4 on the down slow then use the shunting disks to reverse back over the crossover to the up slow and then back through platform 3.

 

[TEW]

I can't think of many passenger services which make such a reversing move (i.e not in a station called at, or in this case in a station at all) whilst passengers are aboard. Any others come to mind?

When SWR London Waterloo-Reading services are diverted via Surbiton and Weybridge they have to reverse the London side of Virginia Water station. They call at Virginia Water, proceed beyond the station to reverse and gain access to the other route, then come back in to the station, calling again on a different platform.
Not anything booked to do so but it is not unheard of for London Waterloo-Alton services to be diverted between Surbiton and Aldershot via Cobham, Guildford and Ash during service disruption. That also requires a reversing manoeuvre at Guildford not in the platforms, generally at the Portsmouth end of the station.

 

[clagmonster]

Thanks for the gen on the reversing move at Allerton, it is most helpful.