W/S staff learning the North Wales Coast Line

[merlodlliw]

Interesting bit of info from Charlie Hume, in his latest newsboard, as he reports

It will be interesting to see whether Arriva Trains Wales operations will be merged in any way with Chiltern Trains, already owned by DB, and/or Wrexham & Shropshire, of which DB is a major shareholder. Hiring locos from DB Schenker should also be facilitated. We hear that W&S train crew have been 'learning the road' on the North Wales Coast for reasons not clear at the time of writing.

Anything to do with "Gerald the Wag Express?" and all the rumours about this train I wonder what W/S staff who contribute to Rail Forums will make of this.

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm Arriva goes German article.

Charlie always has his ears to the gound, so something in the offing.

 

[anthony263]

maybe wrexham & shropshire could start some trains from Holyhead

 

[Failed Unit]

Just thinking on that one. What would stop them running to holyhead now it is all arriva? Marylebone to Holyhead via new street. They could have real stops in Birmingham on atw case.

 

[TDK]

Interesting bit of info from Charlie Hume, in his latest newsboard, as he reports

It will be interesting to see whether Arriva Trains Wales operations will be merged in any way with Chiltern Trains, already owned by DB, and/or Wrexham & Shropshire, of which DB is a major shareholder. Hiring locos from DB Schenker should also be facilitated. We hear that W&S train crew have been 'learning the road' on the North Wales Coast for reasons not clear at the time of writing.

Anything to do with "Gerald the Wag Express?" and all the rumours about this train I wonder what W/S staff who contribute to Rail Forums will make of this.

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm Arriva goes German article.

Charlie always has his ears to the gound, so something in the offing.

I think you may have some false info their my friend

 

[Skip 10]

I think you may have some false info their my friend

Its not false TDK, Ive pm'd you.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think you may have some false info their my friend

Well TDK, its not often Charlie Humes informants give duff info, but I respect you are in the know.

addition, just seen skips response, the plot deepens.

 

[Oliver]

Just thinking on that one. What would stop them running to holyhead now it is all arriva? Marylebone to Holyhead via new street. They could have real stops in Birmingham on atw case.

The combined ownership doesn't change anything as far as ORR is concerned. They would still have to justify operating to Holyhead in competition with Virgin.

 

[dk1]

Until at least 2012 when the franchise ends Virgin has sole rights to traffic between Wolverhampton & Birmingham New Street & many other West Coast destinations to London & no competition is permitted.

 

[route:oxford]

Until at least 2012 when the franchise ends Virgin has sole rights to traffic between Wolverhampton & Birmingham New Street & many other West Coast destinations to London & no competition is permitted.

I suppose Arriva could run a service from Holyhead to Banbury via New Street, then Chiltern could operate a service from Banbury to Marylebone.

Arriva & Chiltern could then arrange to sell "joint" advance purchase tickets.

For convenience, perhaps "hire in" suitable stock from Wrexham & Shropshire to operate the services.

As a consequence of well planned timings, passengers might not even need to leave the train...

 

[The Planner]

Interesting stuff, nothing has come through our grapevine as to what WSMR are up to.

 

[merlodlliw]

Surprised NR are in the dark with the vine planner, but Charlie Hume and his rail
pals are the eyes and ears of North Wales Rail. Its not what W/S are up to, its what others*(broad brush)
want them to do. There is no compti with VT in all of this,for now.

 

[Aictos]

I suppose Arriva could run a service from Holyhead to Banbury via New Street, then Chiltern could operate a service from Banbury to Marylebone.

Arriva & Chiltern could then arrange to sell "joint" advance purchase tickets.

For convenience, perhaps "hire in" suitable stock from Wrexham & Shropshire to operate the services.

As a consequence of well planned timings, passengers might not even need to leave the train...

You mean what FCC and SE already do very well at?

A Bedford to Sevenoaks service is operated by leased Southern 377s in FCC livery but with FCC or SE drivers!

Between Bedford and Blackfriars, it's FCC problem if anything happens....Once the train has left the platform at Blackfriars, it then comes under SE control so is their problem.

So in short, you could board a FCC branded Sevenoaks service at St Albans with a FCC driver but once you've left Blackfriars they automatically work for SE!

 

[seventh-heaven]

Its not false TDK, Ive pm'd you.

W&S are providing stock, crew and loco for the Railway Children Charity 3 peaks event in June - the first leg goes Euston to Bangor drops off the competitiors and then goes to Holyhead to stable.

 

[TDK]

Interesting bit of info from Charlie Hume, in his latest newsboard, as he reports

We hear that W&S train crew have been 'learning the road' on the North Wales Coast for reasons not clear at the time of writing.

Anything to do with "Gerald the Wag Express?" and all the rumours about this train I wonder what W/S staff who contribute to Rail Forums will make of this.

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm Arriva goes German article.

Charlie always has his ears to the gound, so something in the offing.

Route refresh not road learning and nowt to do with the WAG, that was the reasoning with my reply to you!

 

[merlodlliw]

Route refresh not road learning and nowt to do with the WAG, that was the reasoning with my reply to you!

Thanks TDK, all explained now.


M

 

[Geezertronic]

Until at least 2012 when the franchise ends Virgin has sole rights to traffic between Wolverhampton & Birmingham New Street & many other West Coast destinations to London & no competition is permitted.

What about the London Midland locals?

 

[dk1]

What about the London Midland locals?

Yeah but no but... Silverlink did briefly run through before splitting the route at Northampton with Central & then LM starting up the Crewe/Birmingham Euston. Im sure there is a revenue protection thing for Virgin which was part & parcel of the new trains deal. Remember Manchester-St.Pancras was only allowed as a temporary measure to help out during WC modernisation & that NW Trains short lived Euston services where not permitted into Piccadilly or to pick up at many stations en-route.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yeah but no but... Silverlink did briefly run through before splitting the route at Northampton with Central & then LM starting up the Crewe/Birmingham Euston. Im sure there is a revenue protection thing for Virgin which was part & parcel of the new trains deal. Remember Manchester-St.Pancras was only allowed as a temporary measure to help out during WC modernisation & that NW Trains short lived Euston services where not permitted into Piccadilly or to pick up at many stations en-route.

You can use London midland to do Birmingham to London and Liverpool to London on direct trains if you want so in that respect competition already exists. Likewise if the chiltern train arrives at new street or moor street why is that any worse from a competition point of view.

Things will take time to plan so looking at the longer term there is no reason that marylebone to Holyhead could not take place with a 2012 start date. However a little early for driver training!

Marylebone - Banbury - leamington - Solihull - new street - holyhead every 2 hours. Ok unlikely

 

[merlodlliw]

Yeah but no but... Silverlink did briefly run through before splitting the route at Northampton with Central & then LM starting up the Crewe/Birmingham Euston. Im sure there is a revenue protection thing for Virgin which was part & parcel of the new trains deal. Remember Manchester-St.Pancras was only allowed as a temporary measure to help out during WC modernisation & that NW Trains short lived Euston services where not permitted into Piccadilly or to pick up at many stations en-route.

I travelled on this short lived NR service, killed off by VT.

There two routes, Man Vic to Euston, Man Airport to Euston.

nether were allowed to call at Crewe, I caught the Man Airport,boarded at Sandbach £25 RTN, it ran Man Air,Sandbach,Tamworth,Euston.
VT brought in a £10 rtn to kill it.
They used platforms 1&2 at Euston, using named Standstead Express EMUs from Man Air & DMUs ftrom Man Vic.

I know its not going to occur (HDD/Marylebone) but which way would it run, more likely DB went for the west coast in 2012, then the no compi at Birmingham would go.

 

[tbtc]

I travelled on this short lived NR service, killed off by VT.

There two routes, Man Vic to Euston, Man Airport to Euston

I think the Manchester Victoria service was a through one to Rochdale

I know its not going to occur (HDD/Marylebone) but which way would it run, more likely DB went for the west coast in 2012, then the no compi at Birmingham would go.

To be blunt, if DB want to run to Holyhead that much then it might suit Virgin to stop running west of Chester. The Holyhead line isn't the draw it once was, especially since ferry/ rail passengers are down significantly over the last decade, so it may be one they'd be happy to give up (and use the Voyagers on more profitable routes). London - Holyhead certainly isn't big enough for two companies.

People say that one company wouldn't be allowed the ECML & WCML franchises together, as that'd mean no competition between London and Scotland (despite rail having a small share of the overall market and there being very little overlap). However, there is absolutely no chance of one company running the two main London - Birmingham franchsises (whether DB or anyone else)

 

[Failed Unit]

People say that one company wouldn't be allowed the ECML & WCML franchises together, as that'd mean no competition between London and Scotland (despite rail having a small share of the overall market and there being very little overlap). However, there is absolutely no chance of one company running the two main London - Birmingham franchsises (whether DB or anyone else)

I don't think that there is any fact in the same operator is not allowed to operate both ECML & WCML as thier are so many competitors between London and Scotland. Likewise if DB rail did get hold of the WCML you still have a rail competitor (LM) and many road competitors. Although there were some rumblings not much action was taken when National Express had a monopoly of rail routes East of the ECML (as well as competing coach services).

Many people have said the only reason that Holyhead - London Euston is politcal preasure, I don't know if they went to Marylebone the welsh would be too impressed with the increase in journey time. But the Voyagers would certainly be welcomed to other routes.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think that there is any fact in the same operator is not allowed to operate both ECML & WCML as thier are so many competitors between London and Scotland. Likewise if DB rail did get hold of the WCML you still have a rail competitor (LM) and many road competitors. Although there were some rumblings not much action was taken when National Express had a monopoly of rail routes East of the ECML (as well as competing coach services).

Many people have said the only reason that Holyhead - London Euston is politcal preasure, I don't know if they went to Marylebone the welsh would be too impressed with the increase in journey time. But the Voyagers would certainly be welcomed to other routes.

I'm sure there's nothing "official" saying you can't have two neighbouring franchises, after all National Express had Midland Mainline and Central Trains, Prism held Wales & West and Valley Lines.

However, London to Birmingham would be a massive market to concentrate in the hands of one operator (going via Northampton on LM being a lot slower), and there's not the Air alternative (which at least London to Scotland has)

If Holyhead moved to DB, then it'd only take a short bit of wiring (Crewe - Chester) for Virgin to go 100% electric

 

[Geezertronic]

If Holyhead moved to DB, then it'd only take a short bit of wiring (Crewe - Chester) for Virgin to go 100% electric

I would have said they don't have the stock to go 100% electric on that route.

 

[tbtc]

I would have said they don't have the stock to go 100% electric on that route.

True, but an order of (say) six car EMUs for London - Chester, Birmingham - Edinburgh, Birmingham - Glasgow and quieter services on the other routes would be handy, and release the twenty one Voyagers to replace 170s etc elsewhere...

Birmingham - Glasgow/ Edinburgh needs EMUs, but there aren't enough to do it, and it'd only be a small run of units needed, plus give Virgin three types of unit. Would make more sense to have a common class on the Chesters and the Scotlands, but that needs the short stretch from Crewe to Chester to be wired first

 

[TDK]

I know its not going to occur (HDD/Marylebone) but which way would it run, more likely DB went for the west coast in 2012, then the no compi at Birmingham would go.

It doesn't matter who gets the franchise in 2012 even if it is Virgin the franchise monopoly at Wolves, Birmingham and anywhere else will go, this is well published
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You can use London midland to do Birmingham to London and Liverpool to London on direct trains if you want so in that respect competition already exists. Likewise if the chiltern train arrives at new street or moor street why is that any worse from a competition point of view.

Things will take time to plan so looking at the longer term there is no reason that marylebone to Holyhead could not take place with a 2012 start date. However a little early for driver training!

Marylebone - Banbury - leamington - Solihull - new street - holyhead every 2 hours. Ok unlikely

You wouldn't need a direct train just a good connection at either Wrexham or Chester

 

[merlodlliw]

I think the Manchester Victoria service was a through one to Rochdale



I do recall something about booking a ticket from Rochdale, I can not recall if the London service started from there, too long ago now. Never recall seeing Rochdale on the Euston boards.

Now what else is Rochdale famous for, as its on every news channel

On another matter without raising the old thread, there was chatter about a second coming of "Gerald The Wag" ex HDD about two hours after the first departure,I have discovered
this all steams from ATWs house Magazine, where they had asperations of running some kind of Premier service twice a day each way among other things.

 

[90019]

On another matter without raising the old thread, there was chatter about a second coming of "Gerald The Wag" ex HDD about two hours after the first departure,I have discovered
this all steams from ATWs house Magazine, where they had asperations of running some kind of Premier service twice a day each way among other things.

It's like a timewarp! hock:
You've gone back to not being able to quote properly, and turning threads into a complaint about the WAG express!

 

[merlodlliw]

It's like a timewarp! hock:
You've gone back to not being able to quote properly, and turning threads into a complaint about the WAG express!

Now come on, this was no complaint, it was chatter on an old thread put up by another. OK perhaps I should have dug up the old thread.

BTW, just hit your 90019 livejournal web page, are you Dan.

 

[90019]

BTW, just hit your 90019 livejournal web page, are you Dan.

Yes, I am.

 

[Failed Unit]

You wouldn't need a direct train just a good connection at either Wrexham or Chester

People don't want good connection, they want direct. If a good connection was good enough then Hull trains, Grand Central and WSRC would no longer be needed. To get to Hull you could have a good connection at Doncaster, For Wrexham you could have a good connection at Wolves. Only Hartlepool on the existing open access routes doesn't have a good connection to a mainline.

The trouble with good connections is that if the mainline is late you can have a long wait so people don't trust them. If you make the connection more robust (say 20 minutes) people will just drive to the mainline station as the journey time doesn't compete.

You could argue that the Euston path could be better utilised than going to Holyhead, but if it was to go then a direct replacement would be required to stop an increase in people driving to somewhere that does have one!