Wag express to be withdrawn?

[Greenback]

The real point is that the provision of first class and a restaurant car is what the WAG is paying the subsidy for, in effect. If this is actually commercially viable, why is the WAg paying for it, as the TOC could run it at a profit? And if it isn;t comemrcially viable, why is the WAG paying for it?

I don't beleive that a train with restaurant and first class, that runs once a day in each direction, is commercially viable. So why is it being run? The suspicion is because it suits the WAG Minister for Transport!

Of course, there will be some people who use and appreciate the enhanced service of the train who do not happen to work for the Assembly. Is that enough to justify its existence? Probably not!

 

[fairlie]

I'd totally agree that the people of Wales deserve decent transport - the problem with the WAG express is it is a premium service which only serves a rather small proportion of the travelling Welsh public (neatly including one Mr Jones, AM). I would much rather see serious efforts to improve rail travel across the country rather than isolated premium services.

 

[Greenback]

I agree. Why not put a small FC section on all North - South Wales services?

 

[MCR247]

That would be a good idea, but what would the difference be? Also, don't 175s get quite busy?

 

[Greenback]

They do on some sections at peak times. As there are Virgin services with FC along the coast, some people may be prepared to pay for a FC journey, and with more choice of trains, ther emay be more people willing to trade up along the Marches too.

At the moment, the only people who are prepared to pay the supplement are those who can commit to using the WAG Express.

 

[MCR247]

But if you have FC on 175, you wouldn't really get anything extra, and it would really decrease the capacity

 

[Greenback]

Yeah I know, but my whole umderlying point is why have it on just one train a day? If you buy a FC ticket from Edinburgh to Inverness, there is the Highland Chieftain, as mentioned earlier, but also other services on which you can use your FC ticket if you happen to be delayed! Not the case in Wales!

I don't think that there is any justification for the premier service at all, it's only reason for existing seems to be to carry people to the Welsh Assembly and back. But, if we are to have FC, at least put it on all the Holyhead to Cardiff trains!

 

[MCR247]

If only it was that easy. 175s can end up on any route, and it may not be possible to have separate Holyhead - Cardiff diagrams. Not worth it really

 

[Greenback]

Which was what I was trying to say, although probably ina rather roundabout and heavy handed way!

I agree in principle to the argument that Wales should not be second best when it comes to having Inter City type servioces to and from Cardiff. The Highland Chieftain was used as ane xample of reaching the Scottish capital in a comfortable way.

But to take the argument to it;s logical conclusion, you would have to have more than one service each way with first class and a restaurant. Which is neither feasible or economically viable!

 

[MCR247]

IMO, when Wales next gets new stock, it should be 4 car units with 1 coach with First Class, mini-buffet and a small kitchen . Then there could be a tiny standard class bit with like 10 seats at the end

 

[Greenback]

I'd have to agree with that for West Wales - Manchester and Cardiff - Holyhead!

Fingers crossed!!!

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I agree. Why not put a small FC section on all North - South Wales services?

because they're often like sardine tins as it is!

 

[anthony263]

Maybe if grand central do decide to buy some of those polaris trains, maybe some of the class 180's if no one else wants them could be used on some of the cardiff - holyhead/milford haven - manchester services.

 

[merlodlliw]

for your information i am not a civil servant and im not employed in the transport industry either, but i am a railway enthusiast,a lot of the criticism directed at this train is coming from people who do not live on the line of route,would you expect people travelling to their capital city elsewhere to endure a class 158 for four and a half hours,would you expect Truro to Paddington to be endured in a 20 year old sprinter, the Scots have a quality service from Inverness to Edinburgh in the shape of the Highland Chieftain hst,a decent train to get to their capital city,and why not?why should the Welsh settle for less,most of the people I have heard of travelling first class on the wag have paid the first class supplement themselves.i have seen two ams on this train one Labour and one Plaid and they both travelled in standard, please do not expect the Welsh to settle for second best,the A470 is not a great road and if people can be encouraged to go by train instead of by car then we can get that carbon footprint down ..be careful what you wish for when you go down the road of how much each train is costing,the cost of everything and the value of nothing as the old saying goes, i know of quite a few people who have only a good word to say about this service since loco haul was introduce indeed some make a point of only using this train. i realise i am a lone voice on this forum but its interesting that i also happen to be the only one on the line of route of this train and a semi regular user of the so called wag express.

You say you live on the line, how do I know this is fact, I also asked you a couple of questions on your statements, which you bypass, anyhow the Highland Chieftan runs Kings Cross to Inverness & return, not just Inverness Edinburgh one of its stops and this train is not funded by the Scots Parliament unlike the Wag Express. Also we in Wrexham have no choice but use a 158 or a 175 on a good day, on a bad day its a 150 to Cardiff,

my opinion

 

[tbtc]

I agree in principle to the argument that Wales should not be second best when it comes to having Inter City type servioces to and from Cardiff. The Highland Chieftain was used as ane xample of reaching the Scottish capital in a comfortable way

Internal Scottish services (i.e. those not going to/from England) are no better than a 158/ 175 (DMUs are 156/ 158/ 170, plus several EMU classes), and I don't think you could call any of them "inter city".

One train a day from Inverness is an HST, because it's on the way to London, in the same way that Carmarthen gets HSTs.

Personally, I'd question why Holyhead needs another train to Cardiff (there was only one train a day a few years ago, now there's one every other hour) when some parts of Wales have no Cardiff trains and (more importantly IMHO) towns in North Wales have no link to Manchester/ Liverpool which is where the majority of people would rather travel to.

 

[merlodlliw]

Internal Scottish services (i.e. those not going to/from England) are no better than a 158/ 175 (DMUs are 156/ 158/ 170, plus several EMU classes), and I don't think you could call any of them "inter city".

One train a day from Inverness is an HST, because it's on the way to London, in the same way that Carmarthen gets HSTs.

Personally, I'd question why Holyhead needs another train to Cardiff (there was only one train a day a few years ago, now there's one every other hour) when some parts of Wales have no Cardiff trains and (more importantly IMHO) towns in North Wales have no link to Manchester/ Liverpool which is where the majority of people would rather travel to.

Fully agree, Cardiff is 160 odd miles away from Wrexham, direct service every two hours,Manchester & L/Pool where the majority in North East Wales who use rail to travel to work , no direct service. Does Shrewsbury need three services to Cardiff between 0800 & 0900, when local Shropshire travel to work areas on the Crewe line get one every two hours if they are lucky.
Why do I mention Shropshire , this comes under Cardiff's All Wales Franchise between Shrewsbury & Crewe

 

[Greenback]

Internal Scottish services (i.e. those not going to/from England) are no better than a 158/ 175 (DMUs are 156/ 158/ 170, plus several EMU classes), and I don't think you could call any of them "inter city".

One train a day from Inverness is an HST, because it's on the way to London, in the same way that Carmarthen gets HSTs.

Personally, I'd question why Holyhead needs another train to Cardiff (there was only one train a day a few years ago, now there's one every other hour) when some parts of Wales have no Cardiff trains and (more importantly IMHO) towns in North Wales have no link to Manchester/ Liverpool which is where the majority of people would rather travel to.

I would support Inter City type services in Scotland as well. I think that services between Inverness, Aberdeen, Perthm, Dundee, Glasgow and Edinburgh deserve better rolling nstock than they currently have, in principle. That doesn't mean I think it feasible, or likely to happen!

I just can't see the logic of having Gerald, unless it is simply to serve the bureaucrats and Ministers at the WAG!

Fully agree, Cardiff is 160 odd miles away from Wrexham, direct service every two hours,Manchester & L/Pool where the majority in North East Wales who use rail to travel to work , no direct service. Does Shrewsbury need three services to Cardiff between 0800 & 0900, when local Shropshire travel to work areas on the Crewe line get one every two hours if they are lucky.
Why do I mention Shropshire , this comes under Cardiff's All Wales Franchise between Shrewsbury & Crewe

The timetable does seem very Cardiff-centric. But this is purely for political reasons.

 

[merlodlliw]

have a look at these minutes from last year, look at question 8, English Counties should lobby Wag Ministers about ATW trains in England from a DFT employee, its crazy, I found this on the web




The Welsh Assembly Government/Department for Transport Cross Border Rail Forum
The Gateway Centre, Shrewsbury
22 September 2009

MINUTES

Present
Tim James (TJ), Director, Integrated Transport Division, Welsh Assembly Government
Carolyn Halbish, Interim Head of Rail, Welsh Assembly Government
Andrew Franklin (AF), Franchise Manager for ATW, Welsh Assembly Government
Mark Price (MP), Secretary, Welsh Assembly Government
Stephen Wolstenholme (SW), Regional Manager, Department for Transport
David Cook (DC), Contract Manager, Department for Transport
Gavin Smith (GS), Contract Manager, Department for Transport
Mike Bagshaw (MB), Commercial Director, Arriva Trains Wales
Mike Vaughan (MV), Head of Franchise and Stakeholder Management, Arriva Trains Wales
Ben Davies (BD), Stakeholder Liaison Manager, Arriva Trains Wales
Mike Gallop (MG), Route Enhancement Manager, Network Rail
Dylan Bowen (DB), Media Relations Manager, Network Rail
Simon Pickering (SP), Passenger Link Manager, Passenger Focus
Christine Garner (CG), Principle Transportation Officer, Cheshire County Council
Toby Rackliff (TR), Rail Contracts Manager, Centro
Julian Daley (JD), Rail Officer, Merseytravel
Claire Maclaine (CM), Rail Officer, Halton Borough Council
Harold Newby (HN), Transport Policy Officer, Borough of Telford & Wrekin Council
Bob Longworth (BL), Ground Transport Manager, Manchester Airport
Bob Woolvin (BW), Rail Development Officer, Greater Manchester PTE

1. Minutes of Last Meeting
· The minutes of the last meeting were agreed.
· There were three action points from the previous meeting which were discussed:
o First action point - SW issued a paper which detailed the split of responsibilities between DfT & WAG with regards to rail services. He also issued a paper that DfT had sent to the NAW Enterprise & Learning Committee, “Planning for Future Railway Provision in Wales, Delivering a Sustainable White Paper & the Wales Rail Planning Assessment”.
o Second action point – BD will provide a detailed presentation this afternoon about cross border issues relating to the Wales & Borders franchise.
o Third action point – SW confirmed that he had issued DfT’s position regarding Community Rail to English CRPs.

2. ATW Presentation
· BD gave a presentation about ATW’s current performance – a handout of the powerpoint presentation was provided at the meeting. Highlights were:
o December 2008 timetable is working well. Cambrian Line extension to Birmingham International has helped performance on this line considerably and the number of public complains have fallen dramatically. The 2008 timetable also provided even interval of services, better connections with Virgin Trains at Chester and additional Sunday services.
o PPM excellent – on the day figure: 97.3%
o Delay minutes are falling considerably although trespass issues are a major contributor still affecting this (69 instances in last 3 completed periods (down from 84)).
o December 2010 timetable changes will extend three North Wales services to Manchester Airport and introduce services between Aberystwyth and London.
o ATW is working with Network Rail so as to raise line speeds between Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury to 90 mph.
o Chester – Manchester is acknowledged as being very busy and suffers overcrowding. There are no plans at this time for extra rolling stock as there are no spare units – this is under review.
o There were crowding issues between Crewe and Shrewsbury in the summer when the 2 car Class 150 unit was replaced with a Single Car Class 153 (the 150 is used on the Conwy Valley Line in the summer months).
o Small tweeks to the Borderlands timetable to allow operational minutes to be “banked” is making a significant difference to lowering delays.
o ATW has seen a slow down in growth due to the recession, especially since this June. Commuter travel largely unaffected although discretationary leisure travel passengers are down.
o ATW’s overall National Passenger Survey satisfaction figure has improved to 86% against an industry benchmark of 81%.

3 ATW Question and Answer Session
· BL welcomed ATW’s plans to extend some services to Manchester Airport. He would like to work with ATW to market this.
· BD stated that ATW believe that the service extension is instrumental and so ATW will look to build on the three paths (NB – not rubber stamped by Network Rail yet). An hourly service would be more difficult though as would involve timetable restructuring and co-operation with NR and other TOCs.
· BL stated that there are service gaps south of Chester which need to be addressed. This was acknowledged by ATW.
· CM stated that ATW’s rolling stock has issues regarding insufficient luggage storage and better signage is required.
· MB said that ATW has not specifically looked at this as an issue. He commentated that Class 175s predominately operate between Chester and Manchester and these give additional room. He acknowledged that there can be a conflict between commuting and airport passengers, but front line staff have received customer training to assist customers to put luggage in luggage racks instead of on seats or the floor.
· TR said that the extension of Cambrian services to Birmingham International has worked well and has been very welcome. He would like the opportunity to talk to ATW to further promote this. ATW welcomed this.
· TR also said that Centro is supportive of ATW services to London Marylebone but would like to see more benefit for West Midlands passengers by stopping at Telford and Wellington.
· BD replied that ATW’s services would run 20 minutes after WSMR trains and ATW do not want to be seen as competing with or abstracting WSMR’s customers.

4. Enhancement of ATW North – South Services
· CH gave a presentation about WAG’s aims of identifying infrastructure and time-tabling improvements to reduce journey times between North and South Wales for all services, allow Yr Geralld Gymro to be pathed via Wrexham instead of Crewe with a further 30 minute journey time reduction, and provide for a potential hourly Holyhead service. Hand out supplied of powerpoint presentation.

5. Network Rail Infrastructure Improvements Presentation
· MG gave a powerpoint presentation about NR’s operational performance and PPM and enhancement proposals for the border areas. Hand out supplied of powerpoint presentation.

6. NR Question & Answer Session
· CG said she was interested in the “Aberdyfi Hump” scheme and asked whether the scheme can be extended to English stations in her area.
· MG confirmed this, providing third party funding was available. He asked CG to email him and he would then refer her to the relevant team within NR.
· SP asked whether the North – South Wales journey time improvements project would result in additional station stops in England. It was confirmed that WAG wish to maintain existing timetables for regular services and speed up journeys rather than add further stops.

7. Cambrian Strengthening/HLOS
· CH gave a verbal presentation. She said that two additional DfT units will become available to strengthen Shrewsbury – Birmingham International services.
· WAG’s aspiration is for an hourly service on the Cambrian Line and would look to DfT to make use of these units when not required for peak services by DfT.
· WAG has asked ATW to prepare a proposal for additional services on the Cambrian line, as well as further strengthened services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham International. The proposals expected in October/November 2009.
· DfT would look to fund the extra two units through HLOS with WAG paying for the Cambrian Hourly, which is a National Transport Plan commitment by 2011, and will be implemented post ERTMS.
· SW stated that DfT believe that this is a good way to maximise full use of rolling stock and meets DfT’s commitments to improve capacity along the Birmingham corridor which will introduce 6 car morning and evening peak services in and out of Birmingham to Shrewsbury, and improve services on the Cambrian Line. Details are subject to business case and price negotiation with ATW.

8. Question and Answer Session
· BW commented that MB, ATW confirmed that ATW has no plans to address overcrowding between North Wales and Manchester. BW asked whether DfT is content with this answer.
· SW said that DfT is looking at Greater Manchester service provision, but cross-border provision is a WAG and not a DfT responsibility. SW said that DfT would not look at any proposals themselves and it is important that English Local Authorities lobby Welsh Ministers.
· BW asked if DfT’s announcement about rolling stock cascades is imminent.
· SW said that the recent electrification announcements have delayed this. DfT will publish a revised document in the Autumn.
· BL stated that there would be capacity benefits for North Wales passengers if Manchester Airport services are further strengthened.
· TJ said that WAG would look at this in the rounds with other operatives of the route. He said that there may be better ways to address demand over a relatively short distance other than by providing additional capacity over the entire route. This will need to be discussed further.
· BL said that Manchester LA is looking at more trains to stop at Eccles. No ATW trains currently stop there and ATW show no interest in this.
· TJ stated that WAG will discuss further with BL to identify where capacity points are and what can be achieved. Action: TJ
· SW offered to update WAG on Northern rolling stock issues re HLOS and offered a tri-partite discussion to look at best way forward. Action: SW
· TR asked when HLOS discussions will conclude re Shrewsbury – Birmingham corridor.
· TJ stated that ATW’s proposal is expected in October/November 2009. The earliest possible timetable opportunity to implement would be in 2010, subject to WAG/DfT’s evaluation of ATW’s paper, and the commissioning of ERTMS.
· JD commentated that Liverpool trains were retimed to offer better timetable connections, but then ATW retimed services from December 2008 timetable changes resulting in Merseyside trains miss North Wales connections.
· TJ acknowledged the difficulty of ensuring all connections for all services. The West Coast Main Line timetable changes dictated ATW’s changes, and overall provide a better service for North Wales passengers. This will be addressed when Chester – Liverpool services are at 15 minute intervals.
· SP said that WSMR has concerns that ATW will use existing rolling stock to provide their Aberystwyth – London service, and asked WAG’s position on this.
· TJ said that WAG is currently looking at what resources ATW would use to provide this service. The priority is for and hourly Cambrian service and for more capacity between Shrewsbury and Birmingham International.
9. Open Access
· It was stated that there is no clear policy for when franchise services operate commercial extensions. TJ said that WAG will look overall at what is better for the passenger.
· SW said that DfT will look at each open access proposal and consider abstraction and make a balanced judgement. DfT recognise that open access operators can make a useful contribution to improve passenger services.

10. Wrexham – Bidston Presentation
· CH gave a presentation to update stakeholders with the latest position about electrification of the line. Hand out of powerpoint presentation issued.
· JD added that Merseytravel have asked NR to provide electrification costs of third rail but have not had a reply to date. Merseytravel are looking to serve Deeside Park with a new station, have a fifth unit in the cycle and a half hourly train service.
· CG added that this is also an important aspiration for Cheshire West.
· TJ said that WAG is looking at sustainable travel towns and Deeside may be one for the future. He said that WAG is still looking to pursue electrification and work on the GWML will provide a good benchmark of how much this could cost.
· SW added that an incremental approach would be the best way forward for this line. The levels of traffic are not going to generate the same business case on a national level as the GWML. Electrification would need to be prioritised at a regional level by North West England and haven’t been so far.
· TJ said that WAG are open minded who the best operator of the Bidston route should be in the long term.

11 General Question and Answer Session to WAG/DfT
· CG queried whether additional stops could be added on the Crewe – Shrewsbury Line to provide additional stops to the current two hourly service at Nantwich Station.
· TJ said that the franchise agreement specifies the number of stops at Nantwich and promised that WAG will check that the number of current stops is compliant with the franchise agreement. Action: AF
· In order to improve the current service provision, TJ said that WAG are prepared to work with DfT and the LA to identify the business case. Action: TJ to arrange
· JD added that line speed enhancements may also provide opportunities for extra stops at Nantwich. TJ acknowledged that there may be opportunities to do this with improved signalling.
· BV said that fares adjustments in January will be less than previously thought and asked if any knock on effects by TOCs – such as reductions in staffing numbers or quality – are expected.
· SW said that regulated fares are due to fall by 0.4% from January, but with rounding up (to the nearest 10p) a lot may stay the same. Unregulated fares will change by what the market will afford, with wider marketing and publicity – eg ATW’s over 55 Club.
· TR queried whether there would be further reductions in the availability of cheaper off peak tickets.
· SW confirmed that cheaper advanced fares should still continue.
· SP commented that TOCs may look to increase fares in other areas, such as increasing car parking, which is an area of concern.
· TR asked whether ATW will be refreshing their Class 158 fleet.
· TJ said that WAG has already paid to refresh the sprinter and pacer units. The franchise does not compel ATW to do this, and WAG will continue to fund this activity, providing that best value for money has been identified.


12 Date of Next Meeting
· Next meeting would be March 2010. MP will ask stakeholders for availability and confirm best date in the New Year.



Mark Price
28 October 2009

I can not find the March minutes

 

[tbtc]

have a look at these minutes from last year, look at question 8, English Counties should lobby Wag Ministers about ATW trains in England from a DFT employee, its crazy, I found this on the web

There's some really interesting stuff there, thanks for the link.

I wonder whether the long term goal is for an hourly Aberystwyth - Birmingham service and an hourly Cardiff - Holyhead service (e.g. withdrawing the Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Chester - Holyhead train and replacing it with a more regular service on the other two)?

It'd tie in with the political demand for more North - South trains in Wales and with the hourly Cambrian frequency.

 

[dk1]

Just back from a few days in Shropshire/Wales & travelled on the WAG express Friday evening from Newport to Shrewsbury. Must say i was very impressed with the service. A tad overcrowded as far as Abergavenny but there after it was comfortably busy. Thorough ticket checks from the cheerful lady conductor & what an excellent buffet service with great choice of hot food. The restaurant did brisk trade & i countered 9 diners still there on departure from Shrewsbury.

Saturday i was again impressed with the 158s used on the Cambrian line. Advertised trolley made regular trips through in both directions & the trains where well used. The pair of units on the 10.09 Birmingham Int'l-Aberyestwyth/Pwllheli was standing room only after Machynlleth on the Aber portion. The other trains where all busy & im sure an hourly service will be well recieved.

 

[merlodlliw]

Just back from a few days in Shropshire/Wales & travelled on the WAG express Friday evening from Newport to Shrewsbury. Must say i was very impressed with the service. A tad overcrowded as far as Abergavenny but there after it was comfortably busy. Thorough ticket checks from the cheerful lady conductor & what an excellent buffet service with great choice of hot food. The restaurant did brisk trade & i countered 9 diners still there on departure from Shrewsbury.

Saturday i was again impressed with the 158s used on the Cambrian line. Advertised trolley made regular trips through in both directions & the trains where well used. The pair of units on the 10.09 Birmingham Int'l-Aberyestwyth/Pwllheli was standing room only after Machynlleth on the Aber portion. The other trains where all busy & im sure an hourly service will be well recieved.

Pleased you enjoyed the area,without being negative, the Wag on the down service replaced a path of a local service that ran Cardiff to Abergavenny,It is also pleasing to hear the dinner is having extra 1st class customers on a Friday,as the usual is less than four on a Mon to Thur & even less on the up.
I appreciate a lot of people will use this service in standard if given the choice of timing I would ,there is nothing worse than catching the 1720 from Cardiff expecting a 175, only to find its a 150 all the way to Holyhead.
...........................................................................................................................
thought you chaps would enjoy this, we now have details of what Wagair costs spelled out yesterday at Liverpool. I am not a Lib, but this is gaining momentum, Its not rail, but it should be.No wonder the Minister kept the cost to himself for months. see below from the Daily Post.

WELSH Liberal Democrat leader Kirsty Williams last night launched a stinging attack on the Welsh North/South air link, branding it a scandal.

In a keynote speech to more than 1,000 delegates at the party’s annual conference the Brecon and Radnorshire AM also lashed out at Plaid Cymru’s Ieuan Wyn Jones, Ynys Mon AM.

Ms Williams pointed out that the Deputy First Minister, who has responsibility for transport, happens to also commute from Anglesey to Cardiff and dubbed the flights “Ieuan Air”.

“What of the Government in Wales? Well, their biggest achievement is the creation of Wales’ very own internal air link,” she said.

“You think domestic flights from Manchester to London are a scandal? Try Anglesey to Cardiff.

“The minister presiding over this scandal is Plaid Cymru’s leader, and Deputy First Minister, Ieuan Wyn Jones. His commute? That’s right – Anglesey to Cardiff.

“No wonder they call it Ieuan Air.

“£3.2 million pounds of our money pumped into an air link which has in turn pumped thousands of tonnes of C02 into the atmosphere at a cost to the taxpayer of £84 for each and every trip.

“And you know, whilst Ministers fly between Cardiff and Anglesey the empty ministerial limo still makes the trip to drop off the ministerial boxes.”