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Wag express to be withdrawn?

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tbtc

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In essence Arriva "are the wrong type of company"

It's not Arriva that are the problem, it's the constraints they have to work under. Other TOCs are able to develop routes that match (potential) passenger demand, rather than to suit short term politicians.

For example, I'd wager there would be more demand for Aberystwyth to London than there would be for Holyhead - Cardiff

No TOC will ever be good enough for the WAG
 
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merlodlliw

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It's not Arriva that are the problem, it's the constraints they have to work under. Other TOCs are able to develop routes that match (potential) passenger demand, rather than to suit short term politicians.

For example, I'd wager there would be more demand for Aberystwyth to London than there would be for Holyhead - Cardiff

No TOC will ever be good enough for the WAG

Arriva took on the franchise aware of the constraints, as for suiting potential demand, ATWs route to London , the failure can only be blamed on its management, no one else.

As for more demand Aber to London than Holyhead to Cardiff, you may well be correct, but these are not big towns Aber 12K pop with 8K full time students, Holyhead 11K pop with ferry foot passengers.
As for tourism, both Mid Wales & North West Wales semi match each other, who knows.

As for no toc being good enough for WAG, again you may well be correct if its the All Wales Franchise, but next time the franchise will be chosen in Wales & not by some faceless DFT civil servant, the last TOC was imposed on passengers dont forget with no consultation with them whatsoever.

But alas devolution appears to have more political overtones in Wales, Gerald & Wagair being two examples of one Ministers aspirations placed above actual passenger need.
 
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Greenback

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Anyway, I'm off to Dorset now for a couple of days, so I won't be posting anything else for a while!!!
greenback

...................................................................................................
Hope its a holiday:).
Yes, we had a couple of days break and visited the Swanage Railway as well!

Greenback- we monitored the occasions when Wolverhampton turn backs occurred from 01 when they first started up until now. The peak of tunrbacks was in 04 & 06 - Arriva run years. The Arriva bid team and also the Arriva man who "babysat" ATW's first MD Peter Strachan in Cardiff were confident to the point of arrogance that Cambrian punctuality would be turned around "straight away" once they took over the franchise. It took them 5 years!
I was actively involved with all the bidders for the Wales and Border franchise in more than once capacity and can remember what was said and how the various bidders were rated at the time. To a large degree Arriva's current management in Cardiff still have to pick up the pieces of what Arrivas bid team said and did 8 years ago. Hence why I insist Arriva must take a share of the blame for the franchise. Despite having a magic 15 year long franchise they are also very reluctant to dip their own hands in their pockets for anything and are always looking for WAG to give them more subsidy. Looking at their financial figures its clear they take a larger cut out of the franchise as profit than some other operators do, which ties the management in Cardiff down in what they can do as money that could be used to improve customer experience/improve services ends up with shareholders who've brought nothing in. In essence Arriva "are the wrong type of company" - as many of the bus bandits are .Have a good read of the DfT Reforming Franchising consultation its their conclusion too!

We can but hope that Deutsche Bahn bring a new corporate attitude.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


merlodlliw is right that the forthcoming Assembly election in May 11 will have a large bearing on this and other rail related issues across the Wales and Borders franchise area. The two party's in coalition in Cardiff Bay are the opposite to those in coalition in Westminster. You don't have to be a genius to work out where rail might be an election issue given the national transport plan and a map of constituency's with 2007 & 2010 results! Chuck in budget cuts and it could get quite interesting.

I agree that Arriva as a multi national company leave a l;ot to be desired! In the case of the Aberystwyth - Birmingham Cambrian services, the choice, due to constraints in Birmingham, seems to be between having unrealistically short turn round times at New St or over long turn round times at international.

The first was tried and failed, with resulting customer dissatisfaction, the second obviously ties up stock which could be earning revenue. Neither is ideal!

Arriva took on the franchise aware of the constraints, as for suiting potential demand, ATWs route to London , the failure can only be blamed on its management, no one else.

As for more demand Aber to London than Holyhead to Cardiff, you may well be correct, but these are not big towns Aber 12K pop with 8K full time students, Holyhead 11K pop with ferry foot passengers.
As for tourism, both Mid Wales & North West Wales semi match each other, who knows.

As for no toc being good enough for WAG, again you may well be correct if its the All Wales Franchise, but next time the franchise will be chosen in Wales & not by some faceless DFT civil servant, the last TOC was imposed on passengers dont forget with no consultation with them whatsoever.

But alas devolution appears to have more political overtones in Wales, Gerald & Wagair being two examples of one Ministers aspirations placed above actual passenger need.

All we can do is hpe that things improve with DB Schenkler taking over Arriva, and the elections coming up. I hope that the franchise being written in Wales will also be positive for rail passengers.

I fear, though, that my optimism may be misplaced, and we all look back at the current era as a golden age of Welsh railways in comparison to what may be ahead!
 

merlodlliw

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I fear, though, that my optimism may be misplaced, and we all look back at the current era as a golden age of Welsh railways in comparison to what may be ahead![/QUOTE]
Greenback.
.......................................................................................................


I hope you are wrong, but with October looming, reality will have to be applied,as opposed to the marriage of Anglesey & Cardiff with
little thought for the passengers within the the majority of the other 20 Counties of Wales.
 
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Greenback

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I hope I am wrong too! As to the forced marriage, well, that's where reality will kick in first! Probably with a very messy divorce!
 

merlodlliw

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I hope I am wrong too! As to the forced marriage, well, that's where reality will kick in first! Probably with a very messy divorce!

sums it up well, on another point I am amazed that the Swanage trains run up & down until midnight, this must be the latest running preserved railway in the UK
looking at the timetable, we have a big one at Llan, but nothing runs so late as Swanage.

http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/n-timetable.htm
 

Greenback

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It was very busy on the trains when we were there. The evening trains are apparently well used in the Summer, as they allow people in Swanage to go for a drink and a meal at Corfe Castle, and they also allow toruists staying at nearby campsites the chance to get into Swanage for the beach, theatre, or just for a drink.

I was very impressed with the set up, not having been there before. I;m not sure whether there are more tourists this year, but there definitely seemed to be a bit of a buzz around Bournemouth and Swanage, the beaches were full even though the weather was pretty dismal!
 

cymro inside

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short of sending users a reservation list for every train from Northern Wales to Southern Wales and vice versa I dont know how to convince forum members that the demand is there,these trains don,t just serve Holyhead and Cardiff they also serve for journeys such as Bangor to Bristol via Newport.the train I travelled on yesterday had over 40 reservations between North and South on it and that was just people who had booked seats.The problem with the WAG express is that 30 potential passengers per day are using the plane instead of the train, many more stay overnight in Cardiff for business meetings the next day,that is why the 1615 ex cdf is more popular than the morning run,I dont know where some of you get the idea that only am,s and civil servants use the trains from nth to sth,the trains are well used by business people, students and vfr,s(visiting friends and relatives) not to mention our visits to our capital city for rugby and football internationals.if you want a true idea of useage perhaps when you next travel on a nth to sth train a walk down the train and a look at the seat reservation labels might be of interest!
 

TDK

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short of sending users a reservation list for every train from Northern Wales to Southern Wales and vice versa I dont know how to convince forum members that the demand is there,these trains don,t just serve Holyhead and Cardiff they also serve for journeys such as Bangor to Bristol via Newport.the train I travelled on yesterday had over 40 reservations between North and South on it and that was just people who had booked seats.The problem with the WAG express is that 30 potential passengers per day are using the plane instead of the train, many more stay overnight in Cardiff for business meetings the next day,that is why the 1615 ex cdf is more popular than the morning run,I dont know where some of you get the idea that only am,s and civil servants use the trains from nth to sth,the trains are well used by business people, students and vfr,s(visiting friends and relatives) not to mention our visits to our capital city for rugby and football internationals.if you want a true idea of useage perhaps when you next travel on a nth to sth train a walk down the train and a look at the seat reservation labels might be of interest!

Yes but all these pople would use a 175 and not hardly notice the difference, you know, I know and unfortunately not enough of the Welsh taxpayers know it was set up for WAG members to get to Cardiff in comfort instead of on a dirty poorly run ATW normal service,they should have put the money into refurbing and deep cleaning the ATW original stock. The idea isn't that is is only used by the WAG but it was certainly set up for them.
 

merlodlliw

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short of sending users a reservation list for every train from Northern Wales to Southern Wales and vice versa I dont know how to convince forum members that the demand is there,these trains don,t just serve Holyhead and Cardiff they also serve for journeys such as Bangor to Bristol via Newport.the train I travelled on yesterday had over 40 reservations between North and South on it and that was just people who had booked seats.The problem with the WAG express is that 30 potential passengers per day are using the plane instead of the train, many more stay overnight in Cardiff for business meetings the next day,that is why the 1615 ex cdf is more popular than the morning run,I dont know where some of you get the idea that only am,s and civil servants use the trains from nth to sth,the trains are well used by business people, students and vfr,s(visiting friends and relatives) not to mention our visits to our capital city for rugby and football internationals.if you want a true idea of useage perhaps when you next travel on a nth to sth train a walk down the train and a look at the seat reservation labels might be of interest!

All due respect, the train you used was on a Saturday,according to your thread, neither Wagair at £49 per subsidised ticket, or Wag Express run on a
Saturday, no one is saying there is not a demand for a North/South service
but the majority using the the train are not going South Wales in the morning, from what I have seen and used Mon to Fri.
 

Greenback

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TDK and Merlodlliw are correct. The WAG express is considered a waste of money by many people because of the use of a loco hauled set with 1st class and a restaurant. These were solely for the benefit of AM's and senior civil servants. The high cost of running the service is due to the hriing of the special stock, and the cost of the food service, neither of which were introduced for the benefit of 'ordinary' people!
 

Greenback

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They could when the train was introduced. and it was these VIP custoemrs that the FC and restaurant was primarily intended for, mostly fr political reasons.

I imagine that if Wagair had business class, senior civil servants would be similarly banend for uisng it these days?
 

merlodlliw

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Greenback

SCS can no longer travel first class on business but can apparently still use North to South air link.

Good morning Gareth.

SCS in Wales and first class rail travel, are these people taking the instruction from WAG or Downing Street to travel standard? The majority of 1st class travel with these types is between Cardiff & Paddingfton. With just a few using Gerald. Not sure who the SCS are employed by in Wales, Cardiff or London.
Do I sense more use of their cars or should I say Wag hired in cars, SCS spending 5 hours on a 150 ,welcome to the real world.
 
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Greenback

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When I was a Civil Servant, anyone above a certina grade (in our place it was those earning around £30k) were allowed FC travel. What is more, junior grades were allowed to accompany higher grades in FC when they were travelling together! I once booked a business trip from Swansea to Guidlford in standard for a colleague and myself, and he wa snot happy that I booked standard tickets! He wasn;t interested in my pointing out the obscene waste of public funds!

Anyway, my point is that it wasn't just the senior civil service that went FC. There wa sonly one member of the SCS in our office, but around 20% of the total staff were of a sufficiently high grade to buy FC tickets! I really hope that has changed now, whether they are employed by Cardiff or London!
 

merlodlliw

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When I was a Civil Servant, anyone above a certina grade (in our place it was those earning around £30k) were allowed FC travel. What is more, junior grades were allowed to accompany higher grades in FC when they were travelling together! I once booked a business trip from Swansea to Guidlford in standard for a colleague and myself, and he wa snot happy that I booked standard tickets! He wasn;t interested in my pointing out the obscene waste of public funds!

Anyway, my point is that it wasn't just the senior civil service that went FC. There wa sonly one member of the SCS in our office, but around 20% of the total staff were of a sufficiently high grade to buy FC tickets! I really hope that has changed now, whether they are employed by Cardiff or London!

Sounds to me like you were a very Civil, Civil Servant, but a few will remain on the gravy train,

M
 

cymro inside

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0532 hhd-cdf after chester loadings on tuesday morning just gone were consistantly good,all tables in standard had a minimum of 2 passengers per table and i estimate loadings to be in region of 55-60 per cent(i did not look in on first) now when you consider that the wag do not return until later in the month it proves that the demand is there from non am,s and civil servants. incidentally i see no criticism of other expensive long distance services on this forum eg the deerstalker express. the loadings of gerald are very healthy when compared to other services eg the ghost train 0511 hhd-bhi which carries fresh air all the way to rhyl!
 

merlodlliw

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0532 hhd-cdf after chester loadings on tuesday morning just gone were consistantly good,all tables in standard had a minimum of 2 passengers per table and i estimate loadings to be in region of 55-60 per cent(i did not look in on first) now when you consider that the wag do not return until later in the month it proves that the demand is there from non am,s and civil servants. incidentally i see no criticism of other expensive long distance services on this forum eg the deerstalker express. the loadings of gerald are very healthy when compared to other services eg the ghost train 0511 hhd-bhi which carries fresh air all the way to rhyl!

You have hit the nail on the head, A.Ms, civil servants & cronies use first class, why did you not look at first class loadings, ill bet this was semi empty.
I don't understand your post, the WAG EX is funded by £7500 a day of taxpayers money, the 158 you mention is not subsidised in this way, but has to start somewhere to return
You might have mentioned a few trains from Chester early in the morning that run to Manchester empty, as Chester is the garage. What has the Deerstalker got to do with Wales?
BTW how many got off at Crewe? & finally do you work for ATW or the statutory sector out of interest.
 
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yorkie

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the 158 you mention is not subsidised in this way
It doesn't matter how it is subsidised, but no-one has a cost for that specific service (and it is very difficult to get a true cost of such a service, particularly for the reason you go on to identify - well loaded trains may have to return not so well loaded!), as we do not know the cost of that service we can't compare it...
 

merlodlliw

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how can it cost 7500, how is it possible for wag to pay themselves

This story as gone on for a long time Robert, WAG pay ATW to run the train on their behalf, which is broken down to £7500 a day subsidy.

WAG also pay for a small aircraft to fly Mon/Fri from Anglesey to Cardiff on their behalf, the subsidy is believed to be almost £1M a year.The Minister refuses to give the actual amount for this,a momentum is gathering against what is known as Ieuanair or Wagair as a waste of taxpayers money,which it is.
 

merlodlliw

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According to Ordnance Survey, the highest village in Wales is Garn-yr-Erw in Torfaen.

Where is the highest village in Wales?

Sorry. :D

A lot of people ask this question.

1.Every home is over 1,000 ft rising to 1,500 ft
2.Wrexham County Borough Council have official signage on the A525, "The Highest Village in Wales"
3.O.S have a plaque on Bwlchgwyn square stating this fact.
 

cymro inside

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for your information i am not a civil servant and im not employed in the transport industry either, but i am a railway enthusiast,a lot of the criticism directed at this train is coming from people who do not live on the line of route,would you expect people travelling to their capital city elsewhere to endure a class 158 for four and a half hours,would you expect Truro to Paddington to be endured in a 20 year old sprinter, the Scots have a quality service from Inverness to Edinburgh in the shape of the Highland Chieftain hst,a decent train to get to their capital city,and why not?why should the Welsh settle for less,most of the people I have heard of travelling first class on the wag have paid the first class supplement themselves.i have seen two ams on this train one Labour and one Plaid and they both travelled in standard, please do not expect the Welsh to settle for second best,the A470 is not a great road and if people can be encouraged to go by train instead of by car then we can get that carbon footprint down ..be careful what you wish for when you go down the road of how much each train is costing,the cost of everything and the value of nothing as the old saying goes, i know of quite a few people who have only a good word to say about this service since loco haul was introduce indeed some make a point of only using this train. i realise i am a lone voice on this forum but its interesting that i also happen to be the only one on the line of route of this train and a semi regular user of the so called wag express.
 
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