WAG Express

[tbtc]

Whilst I can fully understand the apparent concerns of members regarding costs...Being the only service with a 1st Class catering facility, I feel the ex-Transport minister's legacy is clouding the purpose of this train. Yes in some peoples eyes it may seem costly but the service provided to ALL( Not just the 1st Minister!!) is from the top draw.

It seems evident that the clouded judgement of some seem intent on criticising the Premier service at every opportunity.

Surely if the paying public passengers are happy with the service then that is the key element?

I think we all know that if it wasn't for this one man wanting a plusher environment to travel in (on the days he wasn't using the WAG-jet), there would be no WAG express.

There is obviously already a bi-hourly service from Holyhead to Cardiff (it was one train a day in Wales & West days).

If the passengers numbers justify a service, then I'm happy, but the reports on here suggest that this train is used as a service to get from North Wales to Chester/ Crewe, and then another service from Newport into Cardiff. Few people (who pay for their tickets) appear to use it to get from North Wales to South Wales.

Yet, at the same time we are crying out for stock on other lines, the Valley Lines are using the same 1980s trains they had a generation ago, there's crowding on many services...

Contrast to Scotland where they've not bothered running "Holyrood" services from the West Highlands/ Galloway/ Ayrshire, but instead have concentrated resources on services people actually need (not some political "ideal")...

 

[jones_bangor]

Support? Do you mean "this fast fading type of service needs as much state subsidy as possible"? Why does this one train a day (which carries the leader of Plaid) need significantly better facilities than all the other ATW services?

Well it is, or will be, four trains a day - two down, two up. Apparently to be 67, DVTs and mark 3's (we'll see!).....

However, contrary to what certain posters from NE Wales like to portray, the first class carriage - I can reveal - is actually open to all members of the travelling public, as long as they have a first class ticket, not just certain AMs or WG officials!!

Page 18 of the One Wales agreement: "We envisage a Wales where travelling between communities in different parts of Wales is both easy and sustainable. We are firmly committed to creating better transport links, both road and rail, between the North and the West of Wales and the South."

This was not one persons agenda, it was the agenda of a Labour led coalition with Plaid. So stop peddling the myth that it was set up for one individuals personal convenience and political vanity, and get real.

 

[tbtc]

Well it is, or will be, four trains a day - two down, two up. Apparently to be 67, DVTs and mark 3's (we'll see!).....

However, contrary to what certain posters from NE Wales like to portray, the first class carriage - I can reveal - is actually open to all members of the travelling public, as long as they have a first class ticket, not just certain AMs or WG officials!!

Page 18 of the One Wales agreement: "We envisage a Wales where travelling between communities in different parts of Wales is both easy and sustainable. We are firmly committed to creating better transport links, both road and rail, between the North and the West of Wales and the South."

This was not one persons agenda, it was the agenda of a Labour led coalition with Plaid. So stop peddling the myth that it was set up for one individuals personal convenience and political vanity, and get real.

Its lucky the press don't seem as interested in the waste of taxpayer money at the WAG on "expenses" and "perks" as they were for Westminster.

Perish the thought Politicians concentrate on improving links for the kind of journeys people want/need to make (Wrexham has plenty trains to Cardiff each day, yet what service does it have to Manchester/ Liverpool?).

 

[jones_bangor]

If the passengers numbers justify a service, then I'm happy, but the reports on here suggest that this train is used as a service to get from North Wales to Chester/ Crewe, and then another service from Newport into Cardiff. Few people (who pay for their tickets) appear to use it to get from North Wales to South Wales.

I'm afraid that's purely anecdotal evidence presented by a few biased posters.

My anecdotal evidence - I've actually travelled on this service - suggests otherwise!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perish the thought Politicians concentrate on improving links for the kind of journeys people want/need to make (Wrexham has plenty trains to Cardiff each day, yet what service does it have to Manchester/ Liverpool?).

Liverpool: change at Wrexham or Bidston - frequent and good service.

Manchester: change at Chester. As above.

 

[tbtc]

I'm afraid that's purely anecdotal evidence presented by a few biased posters.

My anecdotal evidence - I've actually travelled on this service - suggests otherwise!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Liverpool: change at Wrexham or Bidston - frequent and good service.

Manchester: change at Chester. As above.

Similarly North Wales - Cardiff = change at Crewe/ Shrewsbury

Hmm, is there more demand from North Wales to Liverpool or Cardiff? Which needs more direct trains?

 

[Greenback]

Well it is, or will be, four trains a day - two down, two up. Apparently to be 67, DVTs and mark 3's (we'll see!).....

However, contrary to what certain posters from NE Wales like to portray, the first class carriage - I can reveal - is actually open to all members of the travelling public, as long as they have a first class ticket, not just certain AMs or WG officials!!

Page 18 of the One Wales agreement: "We envisage a Wales where travelling between communities in different parts of Wales is both easy and sustainable. We are firmly committed to creating better transport links, both road and rail, between the North and the West of Wales and the South."

This was not one persons agenda, it was the agenda of a Labour led coalition with Plaid. So stop peddling the myth that it was set up for one individuals personal convenience and political vanity, and get real.

I don;t really see much correlation between the laudable aims of improving rail links between the North and the West of Wales and the South with the creation of one or premier trains a day on one route only.

It is quite sufficient to have a bi hourly throuhg service from Holyhead to Cardiff, using the same kind of stock that is provided on other long distance routes.

I do support good onboard facilites and first class, but these should be provided on most long distance journeys as in Scotland. The fact that they exist only on such a small numbe rof trains, both timed for the convenience of one particular group of travellers, smacks of elitism.

As to what to do with the train in its downtime, I would send it to Fishguard and back, and promote it as the comfortable way to travel to Ireland!

 

[jones_bangor]

Similarly North Wales - Cardiff = change at Crewe/ Shrewsbury

Hmm, is there more demand from North Wales to Liverpool or Cardiff? Which needs more direct trains?

Short hop or the long distance route?

The long distance route - clearly!!

 

[Greenback]

I support the political ideal of bringing North and South Wales closer together. But I do not support elitism!

Can there not be through trains to Liverpool, Manchester and Cardiff?

 

[jones_bangor]

I support the political ideal of bringing North and South Wales closer together. But I do not support elitism!

Can there not be through trains to Liverpool, Manchester and Cardiff?

There could be to Manchester from Wrexham.

Unfortunately, secondary lines from Chester -Liverpool and Bidston - Liverpool use antiquated 3rd live rail systems which rules out ATW diesels.

There was a pie in the sky proposal to extend 3rd rail to Wrexham, of course, fine until it came to who'd actually pay!...........

 

[Greenback]

Holyhead to Liverpool via Crewe?

 

[1V53]

Holyhead to Liverpool via Crewe?

So you'd support more welsh money being spent on transport links to cities outside Wales?! Really?!

 

[Greenback]

Why not, if it can be shown to help the Welsh economy? Nobody can doubt, surely, that the direct links to Birstol, London, Manchester and Southampton is good for the economy of South East Wales?

 

[ivanhoe]

So you'd support more welsh money being spent on transport links to cities outside Wales?! Really?!

North Wales in particular has strong historical links with Liverpool. The Welsh accent has had an influence on the Scouse accent . There used to be Welsh Chapels in Liverpool and in the 1900's there was even an Eistedford( sorry about spelling) in Liverpool. Now I suspect the links are not as strong now but transport ( especially rail)links have been poor for a long time. The demise of Crosville has also seen less direct links.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don;t really see much correlation between the laudable aims of improving rail links between the North and the West of Wales and the South with the creation of one or premier trains a day on one route only.

It is quite sufficient to have a bi hourly throuhg service from Holyhead to Cardiff, using the same kind of stock that is provided on other long distance routes.

I do support good onboard facilites and first class, but these should be provided on most long distance journeys as in Scotland. The fact that they exist only on such a small numbe rof trains, both timed for the convenience of one particular group of travellers, smacks of elitism.

As to what to do with the train in its downtime, I would send it to Fishguard and back, and promote it as the comfortable way to travel to Ireland!

---------------------------------------------------------------

I support the political ideal of bringing North and South Wales closer together. But I do not support elitism!

Can there not be through trains to Liverpool, Manchester and Cardiff?

I would suggest having more LHCS sets in service over several routes so that when the train comes into Cardiff from Holyhead it could for example (this is not a propperly considered idea, it messes up Carmarthen's through services to Cardiff which would need some sort of good quality replacement) extend to Swansea, then run out to Manchester. Later another set comes from Manchester to Swansea then heads off on the evening service to Holyhead. Something like that would reduce the time the sets are doing nothing, and provide the higher quality rolling stock to more areas of Wales. I'd very much like to see it extend to Fishguard, but that couldn't be done without a DVT or DBSO, or missing out Carmarthen in both directions (unless you run round at Carmarthen too, do-able but probablly not without increasing the dwell time).

I think morning and evening LHCS expresses each way (so 2 trains each way per day) between Swansea/Cardiff and Holyhead would be a good thing.

However, if those were put it place I think the slower 175 Cardiff-Holyhead services are probablly less useful than the following 2 seperate 2-hourly 175/158 services would be if we had them instead of the 175 Holyhead - Cardiffs:

1. Cardiff - Wrexham - Chester - Manchester or Liverpool
2. Holyhead - Chester - Manchester or Liverpool

(ie. you split the Holyhead - Cardiff at Chester and extend the two halves to Manchester or Liverpool). However, I very much doubt we have enough stock for that, so perhaps the Holyhead - Cardiff 175s are the best way of providing the current frequency along the Welsh Marches and North Wales Coast lines with the available resources.

 

[tbtc]

Short hop or the long distance route?

The long distance route - clearly!!

Funny. I'd say the one with the biggest demand was more deserving of a direct train. And I think you'd have to admit that there's clearly more demand for services like Holyhead - Liverpool or Wrexham - Manchester than there is for a Holyhead - Cardiff train. So why do you expect Wrexham - Manchester passengers to change? Could it be because Manchester is in England?

 

[Holly]

Unfortunately, secondary lines from Chester -Liverpool and Bidston - Liverpool use antiquated 3rd live rail systems which rules out ATW diesels.

There was a pie in the sky proposal to extend 3rd rail to Wrexham, of course, fine until it came to who'd actually pay!...........

It makes little practical difference, but the diesels are prohibited from the underground stations on the secondary lines into Liverpool, not from the 3rd rail sections per se.

As to Bidston-Wrexham, overhead wires OHLE would have been cheaper. Metrolink-style overhead 750vDC light rail cheaper still.

 

[anthony263]

Merseyrail did want to wire the Bidston-Wrexham, route only problems was that network rail said it would cost more than merseyrail said they could do it for.

 

[jones_bangor]

So why do you expect Wrexham - Manchester passengers to change? Could it be because Manchester is in England?

Not all....only a fool would suggest that Wales doesn't benefit from close links with England, and vice versa to a similar, if different, extent.

I would strengthen Llandudno - Manchester services. It's a shame that 175's weren't assembled as 4 coaches as I've travelled on the service in peak, and it's definitely inadequate.

I just don't see the need for a Wrexham - Manchester - unless some of the Chester - Manchester services could be extended?

 

[tbtc]

I just don't see the need for a Wrexham - Manchester

...but you do see the need for the current bi-hourly Wrexham - Cardiff service?

Which do you think most people in Wrexham would prefer?

 

[jones_bangor]

...but you do see the need for the current bi-hourly Wrexham - Cardiff service?

Which do you think most people in Wrexham would prefer?

I suggest you ask the people on the stops before Wrexham that question as well..............

ATW does not, as some contributors seem to assume, exist for the sole benefit and convenience of the residents of one town and nearby hillside villages in NE Wales.

 

[cymro inside]

with all due respect to Wrexham, Bangor is the seventh biggest revenue generator in atw, it is fourth if you strip out the English stations,when it comes to revenue Wrexham isnt even in the top 12 of either list.(and even lower if you strip out the Bidston route), Inverness has a quality service to the Scottish capital why not Bangor?. Wrexham could probably justify a morning peak service to Manchester and an evening return,this may happen long term, but at the moment it cannot justify an all day service. And as for the suggestion that the former minister of transport has put these trains to Cardiff on for himself,well the suggestion is laughable.

 

[Greenback]

I would suggest having more LHCS sets in service over several routes so that when the train comes into Cardiff from Holyhead it could for example (this is not a propperly considered idea, it messes up Carmarthen's through services to Cardiff which would need some sort of good quality replacement) extend to Swansea, then run out to Manchester. Later another set comes from Manchester to Swansea then heads off on the evening service to Holyhead.

Additional LHCS would provide more flexibility. I'd like to see WAG consider this option, but the money may not be there in this austerity age.

with all due respect to Wrexham, Bangor is the seventh biggest revenue generator in atw, it is fourth if you strip out the English stations,when it comes to revenue Wrexham isnt even in the top 12 of either list.(and even lower if you strip out the Bidston route), Inverness has a quality service to the Scottish capital why not Bangor?. Wrexham could probably justify a morning peak service to Manchester and an evening return,this may happen long term, but at the moment it cannot justify an all day service. And as for the suggestion that the former minister of transport has put these trains to Cardiff on for himself,well the suggestion is laughable.

The question has to be where are most of the tickets sold for at Bangor? I doubt it's Cardiff, despite the bi hourly service - I wonder if it could be Crewe, Birmingham or Manchester?

The geography, natural, raiwlay and economic, of Wales is quite different to that of Scotland. It is feasible to provide a quality link between Inverness and Edinburgh, but the trains currently run at bi hourly frequencies or less to both of the major cities in the central belt. No one, as far as I know has suggested that Bangor doesn't merit a bi hourly direct trian to Cardiff, just that the WAG Express and WAG 2 is not the best use of resources at the present time.

 

[jones_bangor]

WAG Express and WAG 2 is not the best use of resources at the present time.

I disagree! In what is a no growth franchise, inventive solutions like Gerald are the only way to expand!!

The selective facts being peddled by certain posters does verge on vendetta....

Like the one about two Cardiff services leaving Holyhead within 15 minutes...true, but one is a a "slow" and the other an "express" so that one arrives at Bangor at 0821, the slow at 0902. Arrival at Cardiff is 1208 vs 1322. A classic case of why we need an express North - South service, and yes - this one does call at Wrexham!

 

[tbtc]

with all due respect to Wrexham, Bangor is the seventh biggest revenue generator in atw, it is fourth if you strip out the English stations,when it comes to revenue Wrexham isnt even in the top 12 of either list.(and even lower if you strip out the Bidston route), Inverness has a quality service to the Scottish capital why not Bangor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_cities_in_Scotland_by_population

Inverness is the fifteenth biggest place in Scotland.

1 Glasgow 581,320 Direct service to Edinburgh
2 Edinburgh 454,280
3 Aberdeen 183,030 Direct service to Edinburgh
4 Dundee 142,070 Direct service to Edinburgh
5 Paisley 74,100 No direct service
6 East Kilbride 73,200 No direct service
7 Livingston 54,740 Direct service to Edinburgh
8 Cumbernauld 50,480 No direct service
9 Hamilton 48,900 No direct service
10 Kirkcaldy 48,630 Direct service to Edinburgh
11 Dunfermline 46,430 Direct service to Edinburgh
12 Ayr 46,070 No direct service
13 Perth 44,820 Direct service to Edinburgh
14 Kilmarnock 44,390 No direct service
15 Inverness 44,220 Direct service to Edinburgh

...so there's a lot of decent sized places in Scotland with no direct service to the capital, where MSPs have to change trains if they want to get back to their constituencies. Lots of parts of Scotland have no direct train to Edinburgh (Galloway etc)

However, these places *do* have good train services to their nearest big city (Glasgow, in most cases). In my eyes, having a good link to the nearest big city (e.g. Wrexham - Manchester/ Liverpool) is more important than to the capital.

Wrexham could probably justify a morning peak service to Manchester and an evening return,this may happen long term, but at the moment it cannot justify an all day service. And as for the suggestion that the former minister of transport has put these trains to Cardiff on for himself,well the suggestion is laughable

Do you think that Wrexham justifies a bi-hourly direct service to Cardiff? Yet couldn't justify a direct service to Manchester or Liverpool?

And are you seriously saying that Anglesey would have all these trains and flights to Cardiff if it wasn't for Plaid?

 

[Greenback]

Jones Bangor, that would certainly be true if it were innovations driven by the incumbent TOC as a means of increasing their revenue! Sadly, this is not the case!

 

[Holly]

It makes little practical difference, but the diesels are prohibited from the underground stations on the secondary lines into Liverpool, not from the 3rd rail sections per se. ...

Actually, I should qualify that.
The diesels are not allowed to stop in the modern underground stations in Liverpool and Brikenhead.

An ATW diesel could be allowed to turn around at Liverpool James Street on presently unused platform 2 (but not on the loop) because that was built in 1886 for steam locomotion!

 

[OxtedL]

I think it's the tunnels from Birkenhead that are the real issue...

 

[jones_bangor]

And are you seriously saying that Anglesey would have all these trains and flights to Cardiff if it wasn't for Plaid?

I'm not sure about that....the major change from Holyhead - Crewe to Holyhead - Cardiff services happened under Labour.

One thing I do know, Wales would not now have a full law making Assembly (on devolved issues) were it not for Plaid. I think certain Labour members owe them something for getting round Mr Hain.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Jones Bangor, that would certainly be true if it were innovations driven by the incumbent TOC as a means of increasing their revenue! Sadly, this is not the case!

Mmmmm, I suppose they don't care if the passengers are like sardines as long as they're all paying their fares!!

 

[emoaconr]

with all due respect to Wrexham, Bangor is the seventh biggest revenue generator in atw, it is fourth if you strip out the English stations,when it comes to revenue Wrexham isnt even in the top 12 of either list.(and even lower if you strip out the Bidston route), Inverness has a quality service to the Scottish capital why not Bangor?. Wrexham could probably justify a morning peak service to Manchester and an evening return,this may happen long term, but at the moment it cannot justify an all day service. And as for the suggestion that the former minister of transport has put these trains to Cardiff on for himself,well the suggestion is laughable.

I wouldn't expect direct to Manchester, but it'd save so much hassle if the timings at Chester were better. There is a guaranteed wait of 30 minutes to change for Manchester services from Chester after the arrival of a train from Wrexham.

The Northern Rail service to Man Pic leaves just 5 or so minutes before the arrival of the Wrexham service.

As for the Borderlands route... the level of fares not being collected (therefore the statistics) is extremely high. The unstaffed stations are so close together, and there can be almost whole carriages of people who have not paid, not through any fault of their own. Its very rare that on my regular journey between Gwersyllt and Wrexham Central that tickets are collected on the train, and when I'm going the opposite way to Liverpool, people can get away with much further distances.

It'd make much more sense to continue Borderlands services to Birkenhead North, just 2 mins down the track from Bidston, however NR and ATW don't seem to want the hassle of all the rescheduling involved, plus the engineering work that is needed to replace the points. Even Merseyrail have seemed hopeful.

 

[1V53]

This thread has got so off topic now. It's supposed to be about the WAG Express but now we find a big discussion about whether trains should run to Liverpool or Manchester.

The key point is that this is a Welsh TOC funded by a Welsh government. The predominant aim is to stimulate travel and trade within Wales!

Whilst there is undoubtedly a demand from North West Wales to Liverpool and Manchester, it is seasonal in the reverse direction. Certainly in the September-May period the key result of any direct services would be to take people and revenue OUT of Wales.

Logically there would be demand for a service, but logic doesn't come into this, and I would have thought that was obvious. Politics does.

All that said, there is a Llandudno to Manchester service and a Cardiff to Manchester service!