Wales RUS consultation published

[po8crg]

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/welsh-route-study/

From the summary:

Table 1: Choices for funders in CP6
No. Choices for funders in CP6 Conditional Outputs delivered
1 Provision of additional passenger capacity on Cardiff Valley Lines services during peak periods and associated platform lengthening
Capacity
2 Phased programme of further network enhancements on Cardiff Valley Lines and development of Cardiff Capital City Metro proposals for rail
Capacity & Connectivity
3 Line speed upgrade on Relief Lines between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff Capacity & Connectivity
4 Enhancement of Cardiff Central Station to create a station fit for a capital city Capacity & Connectivity
5 Programme of level crossing closures in west Wales Connectivity
6 Continuation of additional peak services on Heart of Wales line Connectivity
7 Train lengthening on selected Marches Line services between Cardiff and Manchester Capacity
8 Modernisation of the North Wales Coast Main Line between Crewe and Holyhead Connectivity
9 Improved line speeds on North Wales Coast Main Line Connectivity
10 Development of new interchange station at Shotton Connectivity
11 Further network capacity enhancements between Wrexham and Chester Connectivity
12 Improved line speeds between Wrexham and Bidston for connections to Liverpool Connectivity
13 Continuation of additional peak services on Cambrian line Connectivity

 

[PHILIPE]

Nice dream until it comes to actually achieving it.

 

[Proud Salopian]

Shrewsbury platform 8 on page 72... I wouldn't hold your breath for that one! We're still waiting for the toilets to be refurbished at Shrewsbury...:roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No more 2-car Class 175 units from Wilmslow to both Carmarthen and to Milford Haven. I will believe this when I see it.

Last Saturday, the 0846 Wilmslow to Hereford (Milford Haven service) that I travelled on was a 2-car Class 175 unit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No news about the freight train problems that have entered into the realm of railway folklore on the Marches Line

 

[WelshBluebird]

Love the mention of longer trains and platform lengthening for the Valley Lines.
Some of the platform lengthening was done a few years ago (at least on the Treherbert line it was), but we still to see any longer services.

 

[Gareth Marston]

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/welsh-route-study/

From the summary:

Well let's see if the M4 Relief road goes ahead or not.

 

[The Planner]

Quite amusing considering the relief line speeds between Severn Tunnel and Newport were meant to be done as part of the re-sig years ago.....

 

[Gareth Marston]

No more 2-car Class 175 units from Wilmslow to both Carmarthen and to Milford Haven. I will believe this when I see it.

Last Saturday, the 0846 Wilmslow to Hereford (Milford Haven service) that I travelled on was a 2-car Class 175 unit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No news about the freight train problems that have entered into the realm of railway folklore on the Marches Line

A new northbound freight loop between Maindee Jnc and Pontrilas and lengthening of existing loops is in the long term thinking I.e beyond CP 6
NR seems to think not a short term problem!

 

[BantamMenace]

A new northbound freight loop between Maindee Jnc and Pontrilas and lengthening of existing loops is in the long term thinking I.e beyond CP 6
NR seems to think not a short term problem!

Isn't the problem they keep breaking down? If so, a loop isn't going to stop them breaking down other than on the off chance they break down in the loop.

 

[WatcherZero]

Looking through, 4x20m stock looks to meet capacity easily (though 3x20m would struggle) in 2023 and for around half of routes in 2043, 6x20m would probably be an overprovision in the short term and even by 2043 the majority of routes would still be less than 75% full.

Cardiff Central use expected to almost triple from 13m to 33m by 2043 and along with lengthening platform 0 for IEP another platform will be needed by 2043.

Electrification of North Wales would cost £764m and have a BCR of just 0.33

Lengthening Cardiff-Manchester trains would be financially positive as no capital cost and positive revenue balance.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It seems churlish to be critical of a document that actually looks forwards and has some interesting stuff (all options, not plans and certainly not funded).
However, in the north:
North Wales electrification to Crewe/Warrington is "poor value for money" (but might have wider value to the two governments).
Also high cost of extending Bidstons to Birkenhead North.
Bidston-Wrexham electrification seems to be out of favour.

Resiting Shotton as one interchange station looks good, but not if there are still only 1tph on the two routes.
Moving P3 at Shrewsbury out to the through line looks a good idea.
Currently they can't seem to make their minds up about using it.

Despite Chester's vast size they are talking about a P8 for the Merseyrail services to free up P7 as a through platform.
The remodelling in the 1980s has left it with a restricted east end junction which can only be improved at high cost.
There is a "lack of bay platforms at the west end" - because they demolished the GW part of the station!

Line speed improvements west of Chester are considered "good value for money".
But then it says there are two long signal sections which prevent higher frequencies.
Just put in the IBS chaps!

The Halton Curve makes a welcome appearance, so at least NR is taking it seriously.
Even the Wrexham redoubling is mentioned, with full redoubling taken as necessary for new services (eg via Halton).
This would mean replacing the A483 bridge, another 1980s mistake.

I just wish some of the interventions were simply part of the route improvement plan (eg at resignalling), rather than analysed in fine detail for the funders to choose.
Why is not Newport-Chester-Holyhead resignalling a done deal with new modular technology and ERTMS providing the capacity solutions?
All we seem to get is like for like.
Also, why are there problems with line speed improvements between Wrexham and Shrewsbury (-Wolverhampton)?
What was all the relaying for last year?

 

[The Planner]

Also, why are there problems with line speed improvements between Wrexham and Shrewsbury (-Wolverhampton)?
What was all the relaying for last year?

Track isn't the problem, structures and earthworks are, lots of £££ to remedy for very little journey time saving.

 

[DarloRich]

Why is not Newport-Chester-Holyhead resignalling a done deal with new modular technology and ERTMS providing the capacity solutions?

Because the required level of ERTMS technology is not yet proved

 

[Gareth Marston]

Can't see point of putting platforms on the freight roads through Shrewsbury it will just create another problem in years to come when assumptions made today prove to be wide of the mark.
3 use to have access to the Crewe lines anyway, why not restore it?

 

[Proud Salopian]

3 use to have access to the Crewe lines anyway, why not restore it?

Too obvious. They'd rather reduce capacity through the station (and make a ridiculously wide platform 3) than make Crewe Junction a little more complex.

Shrewsbury needs a complete re-think and I'd imagine that will happen if/when electrification arrives... one day. And by "complete re-think" I don't mean renumbering the platforms and adding a bus shelter or whatever counts as "improvements" these days here in the Welsh Marches. I mean all the platforms and all the tracks running in the station area re-modelled (and this would probably result in the "platform 8" coming into passenger use, finally, after a century and a half..)

 

[eisenach]

No more 2-car Class 175 units from Wilmslow to both Carmarthen and to Milford Haven. I will believe this when I see it.

Last Saturday, the 0846 Wilmslow to Hereford (Milford Haven service) that I travelled on was a 2-car Class 175 unit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No news about the freight train problems that have entered into the realm of railway folklore on the Marches Line

I met a group of Polish and Spanish students and their teachers off the 16h25 arrival from Cardiff in Hereford today. It was formed of a 2-car 175, was full when it arrived, and the platform was "black" with people waiting to board (mostly college students). I can't imagine what it must have been like between Hfd and Leominster and Ludlow.
The first thing the spanish teacher said to me was, "I can't believe that train only had two waggons !"

 

[Proud Salopian]

The two-car 175s were ridiculous when they were introduced... a decade of strong passenger growth later and they're a serious problem. Alas, this being the Welsh Marches, nothing is being done about it. I wonder if anything will be in the new franchise agreement along the lines of "all trains Cardiff-Shrewsbury to be 3-car".. nope, don't think so!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Too obvious. They'd rather reduce capacity through the station (and make a ridiculously wide platform 3) than make Crewe Junction a little more complex.

Shrewsbury needs a complete re-think and I'd imagine that will happen if/when electrification arrives... one day. And by "complete re-think" I don't mean renumbering the platforms and adding a bus shelter or whatever counts as "improvements" these days here in the Welsh Marches. I mean all the platforms and all the tracks running in the station area re-modelled (and this would probably result in the "platform 8" coming into passenger use, finally, after a century and a half..)

If you want a criticism in general of the RUS it's rather myopic about the possibility that freight may increase in demand it's all passenger. It was only 12 years ago the SRA was running around saying they had modelled a future where regional rail use was going into decline! Flexibility has to be the key as experience shows.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The two-car 175s were ridiculous when they were introduced... a decade of strong passenger growth later and they're a serious problem. Alas, this being the Welsh Marches, nothing is being done about it. I wonder if anything will be in the new franchise agreement along the lines of "all trains Cardiff-Shrewsbury to be 3-car".. nope, don't think so!

The big issue is can a Wales and Border franchise run by Cardiff be fair to the Borders bit, the natural tendency will unfortunately be to try and get brand new emu's on the valleys especially if a not for profit franchise is instigated and stakeholders belief there's a magic pot of £ that is currently being used as profit. In fact given the revenue take of the franchise getting more bums on seats on the Manchester to Cardiff trains will generate more £ for investment than any other option.

 

[Llanigraham]

The two-car 175s were ridiculous when they were introduced... a decade of strong passenger growth later and they're a serious problem. Alas, this being the Welsh Marches, nothing is being done about it. I wonder if anything will be in the new franchise agreement along the lines of "all trains Cardiff-Shrewsbury to be 3-car".. nope, don't think so!

Instead of bleating on here, have you actually written to ATW and complained?

I suspect I know the answer!

 

[Proud Salopian]

Instead of bleating on here, have you actually written to ATW and complained?

I suspect I know the answer!

Oh yeah, 'cos they'll go out and buy those carriages after I write a letter to them!

Get real.

 

[Llanigraham]

Oh yeah, 'cos they'll go out and buy those carriages after I write a letter to them!

Get real.

I am perfectly real, thank you. However I am also a realist.

Continually bleating on an internet forum does nothing other than telling the forum what you think. It does not tell the Company, be that NR or ATW what you consider to be a problem. They DO NOT read this Forum.

If you want them to know about something then YOU have to do some work and email or write to them. They might ignore you, and to be honest if your ideas are farcical then they probably will, but if you are polite, accurate, realistic and constructive then they might actually take note. And if enough people do the same thing in the same manner they might go even further and do something about it.

So, the ball is back in your Court; are you going to be a keyboard warrior or a constructive complainant?

 

[tomuk]

The proposed changes at Shrewsbury seem a little bizarre. Surely it would be cheaper to add a crossover at the north end of Platform 3 to the down main (through line) to allow access to the Crewe line?

See excellent diagram at the bottom of the page link

 

[fgwrich]

Can't see point of putting platforms on the freight roads through Shrewsbury it will just create another problem in years to come when assumptions made today prove to be wide of the mark.
3 use to have access to the Crewe lines anyway, why not restore it?

Too obvious. They'd rather reduce capacity through the station (and make a ridiculously wide platform 3) than make Crewe Junction a little more complex.

Shrewsbury needs a complete re-think and I'd imagine that will happen if/when electrification arrives... one day. And by "complete re-think" I don't mean renumbering the platforms and adding a bus shelter or whatever counts as "improvements" these days here in the Welsh Marches. I mean all the platforms and all the tracks running in the station area re-modelled (and this would probably result in the "platform 8" coming into passenger use, finally, after a century and a half..)

Sounds like the same proposed idea tried at Nottingham and other stations by creating more platforms / platforms space by removing the needed through lines.

Slightly on topic here as it's in the Borders section of the franchise, but can anyone tell me just what is going on with Shrewsbury Station? I've passed through it on a few occasions recently - Why is the through line out of use? Wasn't that a fairly recent effort after a Freightliner derailed through the station. And why does Platform 3 have part of it's edge 'missing' or at least did last November? It really has the potential to be a nicer station than what it currently is, let down in part by a combination of it's layout and of course those awful toilets towards the buffer stops. Is it because it's not in Wales so seen as a lessor priority for ATW?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where does the matter of the toilets at Shrewsbury station feature in the ATW "still to do" list?

 

[tomuk]

but can anyone tell me just what is going on with Shrewsbury Station? I've passed through it on a few occasions recently - Why is the through line out of use? Wasn't that a fairly recent effort after a Freightliner derailed through the station. And why does Platform 3 have part of it's edge 'missing' or at least did last November?

There is/was a hole in Platform 3 which extended under the track to the through line it appeared as part of the viaduct refurbishment works which have been going on for 2/3? years. Apparently Network Rail have uncovered a problem with the abutments.

The viaduct is made up of the original brick viaduct (Under Platforms 5 & 6) flanked by two metal viaducts.

http://live.leafdigital.com/pics/shrewsbury/

 

[Proud Salopian]

Where does the matter of the toilets at Shrewsbury station feature in the ATW "still to do" list?

It might well be top of any such list... not going to make any difference in if/when it will be done.

No one cares about Shropshire's railway stations, including Shrewsbury, despite its prominence on the ATW network and having 1.8 million passenger entries/exits..! (And that doesn't include interchanges.) Not just ATW's fault - NR and LM are no better for the county.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am perfectly real, thank you. However I am also a realist.

Continually bleating on an internet forum does nothing other than telling the forum what you think. It does not tell the Company, be that NR or ATW what you consider to be a problem. They DO NOT read this Forum.

If you want them to know about something then YOU have to do some work and email or write to them. They might ignore you, and to be honest if your ideas are farcical then they probably will, but if you are polite, accurate, realistic and constructive then they might actually take note. And if enough people do the same thing in the same manner they might go even further and do something about it.

So, the ball is back in your Court; are you going to be a keyboard warrior or a constructive complainant?

I remember when I was with RPC Wales we had a private briefing with Roger Cobb the man who lead ARrivas winning bid for the franchise just after they won. The issue of 2 car DMU's on long distance trains serving cities on the peaks was raised. In short his answer was were the winning professionals we know what were doing your just country plebs who know nothing.

 

[Llanigraham]

I remember when I was with RPC Wales we had a private briefing with Roger Cobb the man who lead ARrivas winning bid for the franchise just after they won. The issue of 2 car DMU's on long distance trains serving cities on the peaks was raised. In short his answer was were the winning professionals we know what were doing your just country plebs who know nothing.

Possibly Gareth, but atleast you were "doing something" and not continually bleating on an internet forum and being a keyboard warrior.

 

[MarkyT]

. . . make a ridiculously wide platform 3

Probably a neater solution would be to adapt the junctions at either end and reallign the Down Main against the existing platform 3 face, leaving a gap where the old middle line was. Planters, or some other subtle landscaping items or hoardings could be placed in the centre gap and you wouldn't end up with an uncovered platform 3 as its unlikely any acceptable modern canopy extension could be devised for the heritage listed station.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Possibly Gareth, but atleast you were "doing something" and not continually bleating on an internet forum and being a keyboard warrior.

According to some we were doing too much and not toeing the party line from Victoria St, hence Passenger Focus were born but that's another story......