walk up ticket “not available to buy” 5 minutes before departure

[AdamWW]

Can you articulate the counterfactual here please? Maybe you could explain if you disagree with that and why? If you're just raising this as a "devil's advocate", it's bad manners to wade in doing so without saying that.

Given that I think InterCity Anytime fare are utterly unreasonable, yes, I do think that.

OK clearly I should have put that differently.

For the record, I strongly disagree with what LNER are doing. It was intended as a somewhat bitter comment on that though I can see it didn't come across.

What I meant was that since LNER seem to be taking the view that anybody wanting to travel at less than anytime prices should now be booking well in advance, they aren't likely to be bothered by issues like this. They appear to want you booking weeks or months ahead, not minutes.

 

[allotments]

In response to the unattributed quote above “Then walk from wherever to the train through a barrier? There needs to be a cut off somewhere and 5 mins seems sensible to me.”：

The passenger may already be on the platform.

Surely it makes sense to be able to buy until train has departed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely it makes sense to be able to buy until train has departed.

I'd say it does, and that information is available.

 

[TUC]

Northern's app similarly cuts off access to tickets for a specified journey a few minutes before departure. Given how many of Northern's stations lack ticket gates it's hard to see what is gained from this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern's app similarly cuts off access to tickets for a specified journey a few minutes before departure. Given how many of Northern's stations lack ticket gates it's hard to see what is gained from this.

Northern no doubt profit from this when people buy an Advance for the next train and get stung with a £100 settlement. That's come up repeatedly on the Disputes subforum.

 

[Wallsendmag]

In response to the unattributed quote above “Then walk from wherever to the train through a barrier? There needs to be a cut off somewhere and 5 mins seems sensible to me.”：

The passenger may already be on the platform.

Surely it makes sense to be able to buy until train has departed.

Then the next thread in the dispute section would be "XXX TOC App let me buy a ticket for a train that I couldn't possibly catch." There are so many factors that need to be taken into account. Yes payment normally goes through fairly quickly but not always, yes the tickets turn up in seconds but sometimes they don't.

 

[Starmill]

And then you may need to walk through a barrier . There needs to be a cutoff somewhere and five minutes seems sensible to me.

I think everyone knows it's their responsibility to hold the ticket before boarding. People are intelligent enough to make that call for themselves, and face the consequences if they get it wrong. They don't need to be babied with an additional limit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think everyone knows it's their responsibility to hold the ticket before boarding. People are intelligent enough to make that call for themselves, and face the consequences if they get it wrong. They don't need to be babied with an additional limit.

Easy solution to that is to allow a fee free refund of any ticket purchased in the last 10 minutes, which is equivalent to a booking office "non issue". If you miss the train then just refund it and buy for the next one.

I think, come to think of it, Trainline might already do this. It's good customer service because everyone makes a mistake once in a while.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I think everyone knows it's their responsibility to hold the ticket before boarding. People are intelligent enough to make that call for themselves, and face the consequences if they get it wrong. They don't need to be babied with an additional limit.

One glance at the dispiute forum would suggest otherwise. Remember this is an app for everyone not just inhabitants of an online rail forum. I've just checked BA.com and the first flight it's offering from NCL to LHR is 16:55 despite there being a 1215 so it's not a rail only thing.

Easy solution to that is to allow a fee free refund of any ticket purchased in the last 10 minutes, which is equivalent to a booking office "non issue". If you miss the train then just refund it and buy for the next one.

I think, come to think of it, Trainline might already do this.

Not if it's been scanned at a gateline as you watch your train dissapear into the distance. I'm sure a equality impact assesment just like everyone wants in the LNER Simpler Fares thread would back up the 5 minute rule.

 

[Starmill]

One glance at the dispiute forum would suggest otherwise. Remember this is an app for everyone not just inhabitants of an online rail forum.

The disputes forum is filled with people who accept that what they've done is wrong, not people who genuinely thought it was fine to travel without a ticket.

I've just checked BA.com and the first flight it's offering from NCL to LHR is 16:55 despite there being a 1215 so it's not a rail only thing.

Rather important difference is once an aircraft is full you may not board. Trains are not like that.

Not if it's been scanned at a gateline as you watch your train dissapear into the distance.

Then customer service would just refund it. No issue...

 

[Wallsendmag]

The disputes forum is filled with people who accept that what they've done is wrong, not people who genuinely thought it was fine to travel without a ticket.

Is that your take on it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then customer service would just refund it. No issue...

Indeed. It would be pretty obvious what had happened if the ticket was refunded, then another purchased for the next train. You can go down the rabbit hole of "but it might have been emailed to someone else" but the fix to that is to get tickets scanned as much as possible on board.

 

[Starmill]

Is that your take on it?

It's pretty much beyond a doubt. The forum is not assisting people who are trying to avoid paying the correct fare. Never has.

Indeed. It would be pretty obvious what had happened if the ticket was refunded, then another purchased for the next train. You can go down the rabbit hole of "but it might have been emailed to someone else" but the fix to that is to get tickets scanned as much as possible on board.

It would be a very elaborate and unlikely way to fare evade, because the original ticket may be refunded within a few minutes of the new one being bought and the email sent in. Another reason why it's best to submit any refund requests at the earliest convenience.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's pretty much beyond a doubt. The forum is not assisting people who are trying to avoid paying the correct fare. Never has.


It would be a very elaborate and unlikely way to fare evade, because the original ticket may be refunded within a few minutes of the new one being bought and the email sent in. Another reason why it's best to submit any refund requests at the earliest convenience.

Although by no means as strange as a refund I was involved in checking yesterday.

 

[alastair]

Only if you think that the railway should make walk-up travel available to those who can't or won't pay the full anytime fare.

Trainsplit was happy to sell me a first advance (£73.55 with railcard) on the 1229 Reading/Totnes yesterday at 1208 - 5 mins after the train had departed Paddington.

 

[Haywain]

The disputes forum is filled with people who accept that what they've done is wrong, not people who genuinely thought it was fine to travel without a ticket.

An awful lot of people who post asking for help on the disputes forum are there because they thought it was OK to jump on a train without first buying a ticket or that not paying for the whole journey was acceptable. It is utterly ridiculous to claim otherwise.

 

[TUC]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has stood on a platform waiting for a late running train, watching it get later and later, and thinking 'if this slips to any later I'm going to have to go back to my car and drive in order to get there on time'. When that is the case, why would I want to buy a ticket until the very last minute when I can see the train entering the station?

 

[Haywain]

When that is the case, why would I want to buy a ticket until the very last minute when I can see the train entering the station?

Because if the train is delayed you can get a full refund anyway.

 

[TUC]

Because if the train is delayed you can get a full refund anyway.

You can, but it's needless extra hassle and wait for a refund rather than having the purchase set up on the app and clicking 'buy' if the train actually appears.

 

[allotments]

Because if the train is delayed you can get a full refund anyway.

West Midlands Trains (WMT) / London Northwestern Railway (LNR) are giving me the run around denying refund for an unused ticket Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Bangor (BNG)

Timeline

2024-01-23 14:53

Purchased Advance for 1D15 18:25 LLJ-BNG via LNR app

2024-01-23 18:04

1D15 was 12 minutes late at Prestatyn. I decided not to travel on the disrupted service. The LNR app had no functionality to request refund for this ticket where the journey was disrupted.

2024-01-23 18:18

I emailed [email protected] requesting refund.

2024-01-27 11:55

Email received from WMT: "For refunds on train tickets, please call 0333 311 0039... We do not have the authority to process refunds via this department. "

2024-01-27 11:59

Phoned WMT on 0333 311 0039: told to call LNR on 0333 311 0006. So WMT and LNR aren't the same train operating company? Strange.

2024-01-27 12:03 - 12:24 phoned LNR on 0333 311 0006 Refund denied because 1D15 only delayed 9 minutes. I pointed out that response was not compliant with National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT).

"30. Your Right to a Refund If Your Train Is Disrupted and You Choose Not to Travel...

You may return an unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom
it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee
charged, if you decide not to travel because the train you intended to use is: • cancelled, or • delayed..."

Told to contact customer services. Full circle now.

2024-01-27 12:46

Emailed WMT customer services again requesting refund and stating that response had been non-compliant with NRCoT.

So my experience is that I should avoid purchasing tickets via the LNR app because my passenger rights may not be respected in the event of disruption.

Any thoughts/suggestions?

Which online ticket retailers operate a no quibble refund policy in these circumstances?

Still waiting for refund after deciding not to travel on delayed train.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not disagreeing, because I don't know 'the rules' but if a ticket office clerk, or a guard on board, can sell me a ticket without requiring my shoe size and next of kin, a machine ought to be able, and allowed, to do the same. The same applies to tickets bought 'after the time of departure', which it always will be if bought on board!

Agreed. Even before all the journey planning bits being added to ticket vending machines, I experienced them refusing to sell an Off Peak ticket because it's 09:29 and it's only valid from 09:30. Most ticket office staff would have automatically sold you the Off Peak ticket if it was valid on the next service and had no restrictions on the return portion, even if it was 08:40 and the next service was 09:35. The ticket office staff would have been more likely to say "You've just missed it", rather than make the buying process complex.

 

[Starmill]

I had to assist a gentleman at Manchester Piccadilly this evening who was travelling to Northwich. It seemed English wasn't his first language and he had been struggling with ticket the Avanti West Coast ticket machines for a few minutes. When I finished using the machine beside him for my transaction, and was going to walk away, he caught my attention and said "Excuse me, Northwich?". Unfortunately for him it was now 2006 and the service in question was due to depart 2009. As such it had already gone from the machine. No wonder he was having difficulty.

I very quickly selected the 2110 on the screen he was on with the results, and then pressed "other fares" and then had to press the route "Via Stockport" in order to get a flexible ticket to show. By default, only Advance tickets for the 2110 were displayed, of course this was no use to this traveller. I then selected the Anytime Day Single for him and pressed cash, as he was holding a Bank of England note. He collected his change and tickets and was able to reach the 2009 with around 60 seconds to spare, so in other words in no danger of missing it as the usual policy is 30 seconds for Northern.

I wonder exactly how Northern and Avanti West Coast expect that customer to know what to do in that circumstance? They don't even tell you that the Via Stockport option is the flexible option until after you click on it and then press the i symbol next to the Anytime Day Single! And that's only doable if you're aware you can select the 2110 and buy a ticket that's actually valid on the 2009.

 

[Starmill]

An awful lot of people who post asking for help on the disputes forum are there because they thought it was OK to jump on a train without first buying a ticket or that not paying for the whole journey was acceptable. It is utterly ridiculous to claim otherwise.

I don't see the evidence for that whatsoever.

 

[yorkie]

That would of course require a change in the rules.

No it wouldn't.

 

[Starmill]

Although by no means as strange as a refund I was involved in checking yesterday.

How can a refund be "strange"?

 

[northwichcat]

and then had to press the route "Via Stockport" in order to get a flexible ticket to show.

Via Stockport was added at some point to avoid people getting confused as to which option is Manchester via Metrolink and which one is for staying on the train until Manchester. Although, if people don't know the names of the stations then seeing only valid via Stockport can make them question if it's the right ticket. I also don't think you can buy a Metrolink Zone 1 to Northwich Route:Altrincham ticket from the machines at Piccadilly, even though you can buy the reverse at Northwich.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I think everyone knows it's their responsibility to hold the ticket before boarding. People are intelligent enough to make that call for themselves, and face the consequences if they get it wrong. They don't need to be babied with an additional limit.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/advice-re-response-letter.262970/ QED

 

[Howardh]

I have this problem at Piccadilly, arriving on an Avanti I can see there's a Northern train due to arrive in 3-4 minutes on platform 14 (on time or delayed); so I rush to buy a ticket for that train at reduced cost online but one isn't available - meaning I'm inside the station gates but ticketless for the next leg; and no TVM that I'm aware of between platform 6/7 and 13/14 using the stairs/overbridge. Is there one?

It's very frustrating when technology could be used to the passenger's advantage, especially with late-running trains where there's a discount for a specific service!

 

[Wallsendmag]

I have this problem at Piccadilly, arriving on an Avanti I can see there's a Northern train due to arrive in 3-4 minutes on platform 14 (on time or delayed); so I rush to buy a ticket for that train at reduced cost online but one isn't available - meaning I'm inside the station gates but ticketless for the next leg; and no TVM that I'm aware of between platform 6/7 and 13/14 using the stairs/overbridge. Is there one?

It's very frustrating when technology could be used to the passenger's advantage, especially with late-running trains where there's a discount for a specific service!

Why don't you buy a through ticket?

 

[Starmill]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/advice-re-response-letter.262970/ QED

I agree, the first line "ignorance is no defence".

Via Stockport was added at some point to avoid people getting confused as to which option is Manchester via Metrolink and which one is for staying on the train until Manchester. Although, if people don't know the names of the stations then seeing only valid via Stockport can make them question if it's the right ticket. I also don't think you can buy a Metrolink Zone 1 to Northwich Route:Altrincham ticket from the machines at Piccadilly, even though you can buy the reverse at Northwich.

In this case it wouldn't have made a difference if the route were dot or Any Permitted, as that would have still needed to be pressed.