War Nostalgia Gone Wrong?

[Gloster]

How are those dressed up as German troops, including SS ones, telling a story? Re-enactments are about the British experience and the Germans, Donald Sutherland excepted, didn’t get here. You are bringing in a group that is alien to what is being depicted and having them in a nice, cuddly ‘we were all in it together’ situation, when in reality the experience of many people, British and other nationalities, of German troops, Wehrmacht or SS, was somewhat less pleasant.

If there is any rewriting of history, it is those that dress up as German troops who are sanitising history by placing them in an environment that makes them appear friendly and unthreatening. (Yes, I accept that not all Germans were the same and that even in the SS there were those who were reluctantly forced into it, but the general principle remains.) It might be interesting to ask why they choose to dress up in German uniforms, rather than British ones: I suspect that a lengthy conversation would reveal some rather unpleasant views in many of these people.

 

[AlterEgo]

Obviously we don't know the full story here, but assuming they were just there dressed as SS officers, then there has been a bit of an overreaction here.

Unless they were behaving in a way that would cause trouble intentionally, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with running someone out of a town just because of how they are dressed, even it if is a little distasteful.

I also don't agree with taking offense to something on behalf of others, which is what a lot of this boils down to.

Sorry but no, please don't wear Nazi uniforms in public. That seems to be a fairly easy rule to follow, and it is not as if they are "re-enacting" anything that happened in England, because they never got here.

I think we are in great danger of rewriting history.

As with most things is becoming victim to the so called "woke brigade". I don't want to get into a discussion of wokism but I think people will know what I am getting at. History is being rewritten to fit an agenda. This discussion would not be taking place 20 years ago.

Of course it is completely historical to walk around in rural Norfolk in an SS uniform, isn't it? What exactly are they re-enacting? They weren't part of the event or partaking in any sort of humorous organised jape like getting arrested, they turned up just bimbled around dressed as Nazis for their own fun.

Just so you know, the leader of the "historical re-enactment group" that's the subject of the thread was pictured at Hitler's retreat and doing Nazi salutes, but I am very sure he is a lovely person who just likes to teach everyone a little history in his fascist uniform.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Noticed, as I post this, a pop-up ad at the bottom of the screen -- seemingly from some militaria outfit -- "SS, Wehrmacht Panzer Uniforms -- Shop Now". (Am not investigating further.)

That's one for the "malgorithms" section of Private Eye!

(Point of order though- That's not what a "pop-up ad" is. Pop-ups, thankfully largely a thing of the past, are ads which open in a new window or tab)

 

[John Luxton]

> It might be interesting to ask why they choose to dress up in German uniforms, rather than British ones: I suspect that a lengthy conversation would reveal some rather unpleasant views in many of these people.

One could say the same of those that dress up as English Civil War Cavaliers and Roundheads.

Are all roundheads neo republicans and all cavaliers royalists?

I know it is not quite so common in the UK but I understand there are re-enactment groups for the American Civil War.

Is the decision as to which side the troops depict based on political orientation / beliefs?

 

[Haywain]

If people feel as though they are going to be offended they should stay away.

The incident was in Sheringham - where should the residents of Sheringham stay away from?

Of course it is completely historical to walk around in rural Norfolk in an SS uniform, isn't it? What exactly are they re-enacting? They weren't part of the event or partaking in any sort of humorous organised jape like getting arrested, they turned up just bimbled around dressed as Nazis for their own fun.

Just so you know, the leader of the "historical re-enactment group" that's the subject of the thread was pictured at Hitler's retreat and doing Nazi salutes, but I am very sure he is a lovely person who just likes to teach everyone a little history in his fascist uniform.

And when challenged they came up with some waffle about depicting the Eastern front, as if to suggest that a Nazi fighting against Stalinism was so much more acceptable than a Nazi fighting elsewhere.

 

[35B]

I think we are in great danger of rewriting history.

As with most things is becoming victim to the so called "woke brigade". I don't want to get into a discussion of wokism but I think people will know what I am getting at. History is being rewritten to fit an agenda. This discussion would not be taking place 20 years ago.

This morning I caught the a discussion this morning on Radio 4's religious programme "Sunday" in which a private member's bill outlawing the sale of Nazi era memorabilia. A trader in such memorabilia was interviewed then it was revealed that the trader was Jewish! Now, I imagine that gent would have more reservations about the Nazis than others but he saw no problem in selling the memorabilia.

I have only attended two WWII Railway weekends both there the Isle of Man Railway's Island at War weekends a few years back. There was a kriegsmarine sailor being marched around as a PoW who "escaped" it was all rather a bit of fun and rather reminiscent of Dad's Army and the "Don't tell him Pike" scene.

The other was a bit more subtle a lady in 1940s costume joined the compartment I was in. I just presumed she was just someone entering into the spirit of the occasion as there were quite a few in period dress. Near Santon statin the train was stopped by soldiers and she was ordered off the train at gun point for being a spy.

We all know the Nazis were bad but I don't see why characters should be written out of re-enactments providing no one is using the uniform in a political context there is no harm, its just history.

If people feel as though they are going to be offended they should stay away.

Maybe, though the "'Allo, 'allo ification" of history is itself a problem. What you saw portrayed was not history, but a piece of costume drama.

I come at this from a perspective where I regard the hammer and sickle as equally as offensive as the Swastika, and regard the glorification of many regimes as beyond the pale, not just the Third Reich. That's not about being "woke", but about acknowledging the existence of evil. Germany and France (at least) have laws barring the possession or use of Nazi memorabilia; some former Soviet republics have similar laws about Soviet iconongraphy. Those laws are not "woke" but an attempt to break the power of this evil and it's associated symbolism.

That one dealer in this stuff is Jewish tells us nothing about the ethics of the situation - my wife used to work for a firm that audited a Jewish pig farmer! And (without comment on the rights and wrongs of it), just observe the range of Jewish views on whether Jeremy Corbyn is anti-semitic.

However, there is a difference between "re-enactment" and what is evident in that picture, which is frankly cosplay. A re-enactment that explains how a unit worked, and educates on the nature of that unit - I can cope with that, though getting the balance between explanation and glorification is exceptionally tricky. I got no sense of that, from either the picture or the quotes - but a really strong sense of people who'd chosen to dress up as their favourite characters. Their comment about what they were commemorating spoke volumes.

Meanwhile, for anyone who's in any doubt about just how morally compromised the German forces of 1939-45 were, I suggest reading "Ordinary Men" by Christopher Browning for an insight into the shades of grey that were involved, even where people were active participants in the Holocaust, not just WWII. More generally, this is a subject that has kept many great historians busy for the last 70+ years, and will do so for as long as the historical profession remains.

 

[John Luxton]

Sorry but no, please don't wear Nazi uniforms in public. That seems to be a fairly easy rule to follow, and it is not as if they are "re-enacting" anything that happened in England, because they never got here.


Of course it is completely historical to walk around in rural Norfolk in an SS uniform, isn't it? What exactly are they re-enacting? They weren't part of the event or partaking in any sort of humorous organised jape like getting arrested, they turned up just bimbled around dressed as Nazis for their own fun.

Just so you know, the leader of the "historical re-enactment group" that's the subject of the thread was pictured at Hitler's retreat and doing Nazi salutes, but I am very sure he is a lovely person who just likes to teach everyone a little history in his fascist uniform.

Well there is always the issue of alternative history.

I am sure most will have seen the fictionalised movie "The Eagle has Landed", and some the war time era "Went the Day Well?" which focused on the "What if?" the Germans had landed. More recently on Amazon there was "Man in the High Castle" which delt with similar themes but set in the 1960s and assumed an axis victory.

So yes it could be a depiction of "What might have been" and as we know the Germans did occupy the Channel Islands, thus their presence on British soil is not totally out of context. There are several well known images of a German soldier talking to a British policeman and another parading past a Lloyds Bank Branch. Can't get more British in context than that.

As for the political leanings of the leader of the group - that is not the issue - if he wants to visit Hitler's retreat that is his business. If he has made Nazi gestures I understand that German law prevents such displays and therefore make himself liable to arrest. Let the courts deal with that one.

 

[35B]

One could say the same of those that dress up as English Civil War Cavaliers and Roundheads.

Are all roundheads neo republicans and all cavaliers royalists?

I know it is not quite so common in the UK but I understand there are re-enactment groups for the American Civil War.

Is the decision as to which side the troops depict based on political orientation / beliefs?

As a student, one of my lecturers was also a re-enactor (his period was the Penninsula War); I've also known some involved in Roman re-enactment. The focus of the re-enactment was research in to how those armies worked, and how they worked.

The serious re-enactors are intensely academic in their focus, not ideological.

Well there is always the issue of alternative history.

I am sure most will have seen the fictionalised movie "The Eagle has Landed", and some the war time era "Went the Day Well?" which focused on the "What if?" the Germans had landed. More recently on Amazon there was "Man in the High Castle" which delt with similar themes but set in the 1960s and assumed an axis victory.

So yes it could be a depiction of "What might have been" and as we know the Germans did occupy the Channel Islands, thus their presence on British soil is not totally out of context. There are several well known images of a German soldier talking to a British policeman and another parading past a Lloyds Bank Branch. Can't get more British in context than that.

As for the political leanings of the leader of the group - that is not the issue - if he wants to visit Hitler's retreat that is his business. If he has made Nazi gestures I understand that German law prevents such displays and therefore make himself liable to arrest. Let the courts deal with that one.

Then let's see them making a claim for alternative history, and arguing for it. As far as I can see, they didn't, so let's not make excuses for their behaviour - especially when the quality of their dress suggests anything but credible re-enactment.

Likewise the apparent trip to Berchtesgarten - the excuse that the salute was ironic is just about as weak as it comes. The German courts will hopefully deal with him; in the meantime, his actions speak volumes for his nature and that of his "re-enactment".

 

[AlterEgo]

"It doesn't actually matter if the leader of the Nazi dress up group is, in fact, an actual Nazi sympathiser" is probably one of the more darkly surreal takes I've read on this site.

 

[Calthrop]

(Point of order though- That's not what a "pop-up ad" is. Pop-ups, thankfully largely a thing of the past, are ads which open in a new window or tab)

Thanks -- I'm "higgerant" about this stuff in general -- probably one of the world's least computer-clued-up, computer-owners-and-users.

One could say the same of those that dress up as English Civil War Cavaliers and Roundheads.

Are all roundheads neo republicans and all cavaliers royalists?

I know it is not quite so common in the UK but I understand there are re-enactment groups for the American Civil War.

Is the decision as to which side the troops depict based on political orientation / beliefs?

Re British Civil War re-enactors (don't know about their American counterparts) -- I've come across indications to the effect that on that scene, those with political views more on the "right", tend to play Royalists; and those more left-wing-inclined, Parliamentarians; but those are only tendencies, nothing like 100% applicable -- plenty of other factors involved.

 

[blackfive460]

How are those dressed up as German troops, including SS ones, telling a story?

Some years ago the North Yorkshire Moors Railway did this very well by turning Levisham into 'Le Visham', a station in Occupied France though, while I think there was, I can't be sure that there was an SS presence.

 

[yorkie]

....As for the political leanings of the leader of the group - that is not the issue -

....in your opinion.

if he wants to visit Hitler's retreat that is his business. If he has made Nazi gestures I understand that German law prevents such displays and therefore make himself liable to arrest. Let the courts deal with that one.

As the photographs are out, it's now anyone's business from the point of view we are allowed an opinion. As for let the courts deal with it, fine, but we can also 'deal with it' ourselves by condemning the actions.

 

[contrex]

In the 1970s I was a customer of a pub in Bristol, the Cotham Porter Stores, well-known for its rough cider, and the gathering place for a group of Civil War re-enactors, the King's Army of the West, who seemed to be either apolitical or antiroyalist. Most were cider-drinking hippies.

 

[simonw]

Well there is always the issue of alternative history.

I am sure most will have seen the fictionalised movie "The Eagle has Landed", and some the war time era "Went the Day Well?" which focused on the "What if?" the Germans had landed. More recently on Amazon there was "Man in the High Castle" which delt with similar themes but set in the 1960s and assumed an axis victory.

So yes it could be a depiction of "What might have been" and as we know the Germans did occupy the Channel Islands, thus their presence on British soil is not totally out of context. There are several well known images of a German soldier talking to a British policeman and another parading past a Lloyds Bank Branch. Can't get more British in context than that.

As for the political leanings of the leader of the group - that is not the issue - if he wants to visit Hitler's retreat that is his business. If he has made Nazi gestures I understand that German law prevents such displays and therefore make himself liable to arrest. Let the courts deal with that one.

The channel islands aren't part of the UK. Given the occupancy during the second world war, I doubt SS and Nazi uniforms are welcome there.

 

[John Luxton]

The channel islands aren't part of the UK. Given the occupancy during the second world war, I doubt SS and Nazi uniforms are welcome there.

I think we are splitting hairs here. The CI is a Crown Dependency and is very much British rather than French off whose shores the islands lie.

....in your opinion.

As the photographs are out, it's now anyone's business from the point of view we are allowed an opinion. As for let the courts deal with it, fine, but we can also 'deal with it' ourselves by condemning the actions.

I hadn't actually seen the photos, however, I have now on the Daily Mail page I found.

But I agree he shouldn't be doing it and if they were taken in Germany he should be dealt with.

It is interesting though that the group claims to have attended the Sheringham event four or five times.

One wonders how this year their attendance became a problem?

I wonder if the group was singled out this time because someone had been aware of the photos and looked out for him and his group?

 

[yorkie]

One wonders how this year their attendance became a problem?

Were they wearing the same uniforms on previous occasions and/or behaving in the same way?

I wonder if the group was singled out this time because someone had been aware of the photos and looked out for him and his group?

Maybe; if I saw recognised who was known for behaving in a way that appears to endorse nazi views, I would certainly not be keeping that information to myself.

 

[silverfoxcc]

One could say the same of those that dress up as English Civil War Cavaliers and Roundheads.

Are all roundheads neo republicans and all cavaliers royalists?

I know it is not quite so common in the UK but I understand there are re-enactment groups for the American Civil War.

Is the decision as to which side the troops depict based on political orientation / beliefs?

John
The US civil war lads do exist. We had two brothers living opposite us who were in iirc SOSKAN aka the Southern skirmish association. This only came to light when my Dad enquired who were the two guys outside having a sword fight. and being photographed by the local press. There is a couple of funny tales to this.....We were then invited to a Western BBQ at the local church hall where we had a gunfight re enactment sort of gunfight at the OK corral and every one was dressed in cowboy outfits except us!! During the gunfight, the 'sheriff' was called to the phone and came back with the news that the buffet will not be arriving as the trailer it was on has decided to escape from the car and the fish and chips..about 80 portions.. were now all over the main road.. We made our excuses and left!!

Now cast your mind back to the IRA problem in the mid 80s and, for those not in Southern England, it was decreed the every garage and out building had to be visited by the local plod. While talking to the one who had to check mine .he told me of what they had found.. Lots of stolen and counterfeit goods Lovw nests small undeclared business etc open their garage..His mate was tasked with looking at the lads garage and when it was there were two 15lb cannons looking back at him.. He just said Thanks and walked away!!

Their father however had married a German lass and one day i opened my front door to see him fully dressed as some sort of German Officer .. Just said Morning Fred and carried on. It was the only time i saw him in it

 

[Ashley Hill]

My friend who lives in the town said it only kicked off because,a drunk male ( not a local),thumped one of them.
The rest you know.

So if the assault hadn’t taken place then neither would this thread. They could have done their thing and gone home.

 

[John Luxton]

Maybe, though the "'Allo, 'allo ification" of history is itself a problem. What you saw portrayed was not history, but a piece of costume drama.

I come at this from a perspective where I regard the hammer and sickle as equally as offensive as the Swastika, and regard the glorification of many regimes as beyond the pale, not just the Third Reich. That's not about being "woke", but about acknowledging the existence of evil. Germany and France (at least) have laws barring the possession or use of Nazi memorabilia; some former Soviet republics have similar laws about Soviet iconongraphy. Those laws are not "woke" but an attempt to break the power of this evil and it's associated symbolism.

Part of dealing with bad things is applying "allo, allo ification" yes it means laughing at the absurd and offensive regimes. I have seen a 1930s film that mocks goose stepping, it has certainly been on TV in the last few months but on what programme I can't now remember.

We undermine evil by laughing at it.

Nothing worse than for someone, or a bad regime, to be mocked or laughed at when they are trying to be taken seriously.

Two of my favourite movies "1-2-3" from the 1960s and "Top Secret" certainly poke a lot of fun at the Soviets and the then German Democratic Republic.

Today there appears to be many people who look to be offended over a whole range of issues. It is to those people I would append the badge "woke".

This wasn't a feature of the past.

I was born to parents who lived through WWII and they and my grandparents told me a lot about what life was like during the period in particular the blitz.

They certainly found WWII comedy funny and enjoyed both Dad's Army and Allo Allo. It wasn't a no-go area.

Laughing at the Nazis was fair game.

But Now attitudes seem to have changed - I don't know what has brought about the change.

I can't say it is a greater awareness of atrocities as material evidencing that has always been available.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Part of dealing with bad things is applying "allo, allo ification" yes it means laughing at the absurd and offensive regimes. I have seen a 1930s film that mocks goose stepping, it has certainly been on TV in the last few months but on what programme I can't now remember.

We undermine evil by laughing at it.

Nothing worse than for someone, or a bad regime, to be mocked or laughed at when they are trying to be taken seriously.

Two of my favourite movies "1-2-3" from the 1960s and "Top Secret" certainly poke a lot of fun at the Soviets and the then German Democratic Republic.

Today there appears to be many people who look to be offended over a whole range of issues. It is to those people I would append the badge "woke".

This wasn't a feature of the past.

I was born to parents who lived through WWII and they and my grandparents told me a lot about what life was like during the period in particular the blitz.

They certainly found WWII comedy funny and enjoyed both Dad's Army and Allo Allo. It wasn't a no-go area.

Laughing at the Nazis was fair game.

But Now attitudes seem to have changed - I don't know what has brought about the change.

I can't say it is a greater awareness of atrocities as material evidencing that has always been available.

Can’t find anything here to disagree with.

 

[stuu]

Part of dealing with bad things is applying "allo, allo ification" yes it means laughing at the absurd and offensive regimes. I have seen a 1930s film that mocks goose stepping, it has certainly been on TV in the last few months but on what programme I can't now remember.

We undermine evil by laughing at it.

Nothing worse than for someone, or a bad regime, to be mocked or laughed at when they are trying to be taken seriously.

Two of my favourite movies "1-2-3" from the 1960s and "Top Secret" certainly poke a lot of fun at the Soviets and the then German Democratic Republic.

Today there appears to be many people who look to be offended over a whole range of issues. It is to those people I would append the badge "woke".

This wasn't a feature of the past.

I was born to parents who lived through WWII and they and my grandparents told me a lot about what life was like during the period in particular the blitz.

They certainly found WWII comedy funny and enjoyed both Dad's Army and Allo Allo. It wasn't a no-go area.

Laughing at the Nazis was fair game.

But Now attitudes seem to have changed - I don't know what has brought about the change.

I can't say it is a greater awareness of atrocities as material evidencing that has always been available.

I agree with most of that, but that doesn't appear relevant in this example. Those dressed as members of the SS weren't (presumably) doing it so they could be the butt of a joke.

Being offended by people dressed as the SS is not woke, it's common decency

 

[Ashley Hill]

Perhaps nobody should dress in WW2 British uniforms in case we offend any German visitors.

 

[stuu]

Perhaps nobody should dress in WW2 British uniforms in case we offend any German visitors.

Which unit of the British Army was the equivalent of the Death's Head Brigade?

 

[AlterEgo]

Again, just to resurface the fact the guy in charge of them is an actual wrong'un, who went to the Eagle's Nest and did Nazi salutes on his little Hitler pilgrimage, alongside his little SS dressing up hobby.

But sure, "raising awareness" of Hitler in Sheringham.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Perhaps nobody should dress in WW2 British uniforms in case we offend any German visitors.

Ludicrous comment.

We are talking about the SS here. The nastiest of the nastiest. They wanted to destroy a whole race (and many others too). Unless it's part of an academic or professional TV/film production, no one should be dressing up in SS uniforms and if they are, there is something seriously wrong with them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Perhaps nobody should dress in WW2 British uniforms in case we offend any German visitors.

I recall seeing photos a couple of years ago from a counter-protest to an AfD demonstration in Dresden. Germans carrying placards that said "Bomber Harris, your work is not finished!".

Whilst my own cursory investigations suggest that the AfD (Alternativ Für Deutschland) are some distance away from being full-blown neo-nazis, those protestors at least suggest that your average German in the 2020s would not be offended by a British military uniform from any historical period.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Oh, and the German visitors would be more offended by the SS uniforms.

 

[simonw]

I think we are splitting hairs here. The CI is a Crown Dependency and is very much British rather than French off whose shores the islands lie.


I hadn't actually seen the photos, however, I have now on the Daily Mail page I found.

But I agree he shouldn't be doing it and if they were taken in Germany he should be dealt with.

It is interesting though that the group claims to have attended the Sheringham event four or five times.

One wonders how this year their attendance became a problem?

I wonder if the group was singled out this time because someone had been aware of the photos and looked out for him and his group?

The Channel islands are not British, but that was not the main point I was making.

 

[Haywain]

Whilst my own cursory investigations suggest that the AfD (Alternativ Für Deutschland) are some distance away from being full-blown neo-nazis,

The National Socialist party started out some way from being full-blown Nazis too.

 

[ExRes]

Which unit of the British Army was the equivalent of the Death's Head Brigade?

Probably the Catering Corps from what my grandad said