Waterloo International - here's a radical thought!

[daccer]

With Db actively looking at running international trains through the Tunnel asap a thought did strike me with regards to St Pancras and capacity at our end of the link. We do suffer from currently only having one terminus where all Eurostar services terminate whilst the services can arrive at several differnet terminii in Europe (Brussels and gare du Nord mainly but not exclusively.) What will happen when Db start operating (as they surely will). We will have additional services feeding into St P froma range of destinations. As soon as the HS1 and Chunnel is opened up we could see many operators jumping on the bandwagon and the number of services could multiply rapidly. Is St P going to cope considering the long dwell times needed for these trains and the shortage of platforms.

My point is why not retain Waterloo Int for its intended purpose. If we do see a boom in International services after de regulation (and once other train companies and airlines realise the services can be succesful) where are they going to put these services - st P can't be extended anymore. The same principal was applied to short haul and low cost airlines. They couldn't all fit into Heathrow so other airports took the additional traffic (think Luton, Stansted and Gatwick). Why using Heathrow for all traffic was maybe the original idea it was soon obvious that it couldn't cope. Hence the other airport came into play.

Whilst the route into Waterloo will be slower than St P this will be offset maybe by lower utilisation costs on the route and also at the station. If we do away with Waterloo Int and its four platforms what will happen if we see a boom in International train travel and can't find room for them. Your comments please.

 

[atomicdanny]

There is one minor problem with this however is that, all of the trains would also need to be fitted with 3rd rail as well, which none of these types of trains have except for the eurostar (which have probably been removed?) and also the increased traffic would also have a big effect upon the chatham mainline if there are a lot of train companies interested!

 

[generalvegitable]

the main problem is the infrastructure around waterloo, the trains that would most likely run would be a) too big, b) not have AWS/TPWS and c) use 25Kv OHLE rather than 750v DC 3rd rail. it would be far too expensive for it to work properly

 

[45669]

It's certainly a good idea; Waterloo is more convenient than St. Pancras for many people.

But, and it's a very big but, trains built to the larger continental loading gauge wouldn't fit through the stations and infrastructure between HS 1 and Waterloo station. This is apart from the question of 3rd rail electrification.

So, unless the Eurostars return to Waterloo and leave St. Pancras to Johnny Foreigner, it is not a practical solution. Pity.

Of course, our continental cousins could build new, smaller, 3rd rail fitted trains...and call them Eurostars!

 

[moggie]

And for the record Waterlooo is less convenient than St Pancras for even more people.

 

[45669]

And for the record Waterlooo is less convenient than St Pancras for even more people.

I have a personal interest here.

At the moment, we live north of London and, until recently, had to slog through the Underground with all our luggage to get from King's Cross to Waterloo.

Now, of course, all we have to do on arrival at King's Cross is walk across the road.

However, we are shortly hoping to move down to Hampshire so will, in future, have to slog through the Underground with all our luggage to get from Waterloo to St. Pancras...

I rest my case.

 

[swt_passenger]

the main problem is the infrastructure around waterloo, the trains that would most likely run would be a) too big, b) not have AWS/TPWS and c) use 25Kv OHLE rather than 750v DC 3rd rail.

You forgot 'd) far too slow', I think...

 

[route:oxford]

What is the shortest (rail route) between HS1 and Waterloo - either by current or lifted but intact routes?

And how much would it cost to "wire up"? The UK coffers are empty, but it doesn't mean to say that an overseas operator is incapable of funding the work - don't forget the Chinese have a long term plan for through trains from London to China.

 

[Fincra5]

It takes a fair amount longer to travel via 3rd rail to waterloo than it does straight on HS1 to StP.

 

[222666]

They could just run Electrostars down to Ashford from there but what would be the point, if there's enough of London terminals doing that already. The point of HS1 is it goes via the olympic site, & a regenerated area instead of dragging shoes through derelict suburbs of South London. Also, St Pancras is a better connection point for the Midlands & North, Euston is just 10 mins walk etc etc. I think overall to suit the corporate image of Eurostar it has to be a fast flowing journey & scraping about on third rail doesn't do it justice really.

All the mainline SWT trains should use it, especially the boat trains.

 

[jopsuk]

I would guess the shortest route is the one they used- up over the flyover south of Vauxhall onto the Chatham Main Line through Brixton, Bromley, Swanley etc. A very busy commuter corridor.

The old route took fifty minutes, non-stop, to reach Ashford (via the HS1 section 1- not sure how long they took prior to that when they went "classic" lines all the way) whilst they take thirty minutes from St Pancras.

it wouldn't be the obvious first choice route for receiveing wires south of the Thames- that would be (in my view) the Thameslink/Brighton Main Line route(s)

 

[swt_passenger]

...especially the boat trains.

Are there any?

 

[Drsatan]

Are there any?

Trains to Dover Western Docks stopped running in 1994 when the Channel Tunnel opened.

Trains to Holyhead don't class as boat trains since in most cases the train arrives just before the boat departs.

Apart from a few charter services run to Southampton Western Docks to connect with Cunard cruise liners there aren't any boat trains in the UK
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All the mainline SWT trains should use it, especially the boat trains.

A flyover would have to be built near Vauxhall to give SWML trains access to the ex-Eurostar station.

Reopening it is a very sensible idea, and because it's sensible the DafT doesn't care.

 

[pablo]

There is no end of proposals for Waterloo. Here is the main one to be found in Daft's archives. A search will turn up many others. The Vauxhall flyover proposal would cost £30 million IIRC. Read: http://webarchive.nationalarchives....r/rail/pi/wi/rnativeusesforwaterlooin3459.pdf

 

[jopsuk]

NXEA run strenghened/extra trains to connect to boats at Harwich, don't they?

 

[jon0844]

I'd have expected an official boat train would potentially result in a boat behind held up if the train was late, while a train that happens to go to a station near a port would do nothing more than get you there at that time, or around that time. If it arrived late, tough. If there's only one crossing every day or two days, even more tough!

 

[Greenback]

The traditional concept of a 'boat train' was that it was a train run purely for the benefit of ferry passengers. Although in practice there was often no need to be travelling by sea, they usually had very limited stops and went directly to and from the quayside, as in the case of Dover Western Docks and Weymouth Quay. This still remains the case at Harwich international and Fishguard Harbour today. They were, as a result, pretty inconvenient for non ferry passengers!

Most of the connecting trains today don't just serve ferries alone. Most don't go anywhere near the port and require a bus to actually get passengers to and from the station (think Dover Priory, Portsmouth).

Given the huge reduction in rail-sea foot passnegers this sad state of affairs isn;t surprising!

 

[starrymarkb]

There have been reductions in Ferry crossings as well, Harwich used to have sailings to Sweden, Norway and Holland, now its just the DFDS freight ferry for Denmark and Stena to the Netherlands.

 

[mickey]

Trains to Holyhead don't class as boat trains since in most cases the train arrives just before the boat departs.

I may be being dozy but isn't that the point?

Anyway, fwiw my view is that 'boat trains' haven't disappeared in the last decade or two, it's more that the definition of the term has changed. To me, a boat train is any train that is used to connect with a ferry, regardless of whether a bus transfer is required (e.g. Portsmouth/Continental) or the station is at the terminal (Portsmouth/IOW, Holyhead). It's important to note too that some TOCs actively promote ferry links despite not being able to guarantee connections, and there are many railway staff who know certain trains are used to meet boats and will prioritise them accordingly in times of delay. I'm thinking especially of Crewe here, where I've seen many Holyhead trains held to meet late incoming northbound VT services, though I'm sure it happens elsewhere too.

 

[Greenback]

There have been reductions in Ferry crossings as well, Harwich used to have sailings to Sweden, Norway and Holland, now its just the DFDS freight ferry for Denmark and Stena to the Netherlands.

Very true. I enjoyed my trip to Kristiansand and Gothenburg with DFDS!

 

[jon0844]

The ferry to Esbjerg (Denmark) from Harwich is awful compared to what DFDS had before. Nothing to do on the boat at all, except eat/drink and sleep - and besides the sleeping, it's not a great environment to eat or drink.. completely boring.

As a kid, I used to go to Sweden every year by car - Harwich>Denmark then driving through (quicker than going to Gothenburg and driving down to Malmo). It's now even easier now there are two bridges so there's no other ferry to Sweden. I guess a lot of ferries suffered from low cost airlines first, and now - to a certain extent - the tunnel. DFDS also charged stupid amounts too; a return with car would be £1000+. Come on!

Then, the ferry changed to the rubbish in place today, and for the last two times I've taken the tunnel and driven through Europe. It's easy to drive, you stay one night in a cheap hotel or share the driving and do it all in one go. Easy - except sharing the driving isn't a nice option and cheap hotels are, cheap. There's also the wear and tear on the car and petrol. Petrol isn't cheap in Europe anymore, especially with the exchange rate. In fact, it's the cost of fuel that probably makes the biggest difference.

So, next time, we'll probably go back to taking the ferry (and car). I can see that with some good marketing, and playing on the 'retro' factor of going by boat, ferries could actually become popular again - especially now more and more people are saying enough is enough to the likes of Ryanair who are just taking the ****. The last ferry I went on (Kiel to Gothenburg) had free Wi-Fi throughout, a TV in our cabin, a gorgeous wetroom shower and a very modern feel (okay, it was a refurb not a new boat, but that works for trains!).

Bring back connecting trains, have onward connections timed accordingly and hopefully the people will come.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I think ferries can potentially win back a lot of lost business. They must make a big effort to provide a quality service and environment that is far removed from the budget airlines. They also need to start courting foot passengers again.

Brittany Ferries seem to be doing very well. They are expanding, their ships are nice, the food is rather better than most and the entertainment varied, including bingo, magic shows, singers and dancing. There's also a quiet bar on the larger ships with a pianist.

 

[jon0844]

For me, having a TV in the cabin and Wi-Fi with fairly reasonable Internet access, I would happily rest on a boat instead of doing the driving EVEN IF it was cheaper to drive.

Now, the main reason for driving is to have total freedom/flexibility on a trip, and/or move lots of stuff about - and a boat is ideal as you can still take the car with you. That's another plus vs the airline. Yes, you could fly and hire a car I suppose, but it's not quite the same.

That gets me thinking, I wonder if there's still a ferry to Santander - a nice way of getting to Spain without doing loads of driving/petrol/mileage through France.

 

[Birdbrain]

Thankfully there still are two ferry routes from the UK to Santander from Portsmouth and Plymouth

http://www.brittany-ferries.co.uk/routes/portsmouth-plymouth-santander

There is also a Portsmouth-Bilbao route run by P & O although this is due to finish at the end of September. I find it a shame that the ferry business has been in decline. After visiting Folkstone Harbour and Newhaven Marine recently, you can really see that the infrastructure for boat trains with connections to ferries are still there. Weather the market for them will ever return, we will have to see.

 

[EWS 58038]

What capacity problem are we talking about? There can be up to five departures per hour from St P Int on cross channel services. The fact Eurostar trains stay in the station for two hours only indicate there is plenty of space left to be ultilised for thangs that do matter. You won't have to clean a Eurostar when it's in the platform. Besides, an ICE will come and go in 30 minutes anyway.

 

[45669]

The old route took fifty minutes, non-stop, to reach Ashford (via the HS1 section 1) whilst they take thirty minutes from St Pancras.

A saving of 20 minutes. So how long does it take on the Underground to get from Waterloo to St. Pancras? On a good day with all tube connections runing well, I can do it in 25 minutes. However, that's cutting it fine to say the least. I usualy reckon on half an hour, but there have been times when even that isn't enough.

Originally, Eurostar said that they would still continue to run some trains from Waterloo after the transfer to St. Pancras. That's good, I thought. We won't have to slog through the Underground with all our luggage when St. Pancras opens and we move to Hampshire.

So what happened to that idea?!

As I said in a previous posting, at the moment, I have a foot in both camps as I currently live on the ECML and St. Pancras suits me fine. However, as we hope to be moving to Hampshire shortly, Waterloo, will then be far better.

Am I alone in campaigning for the reinstatement of Waterloo for at least some international trains?

 

[LE Greys]

A saving of 20 minutes. So how long does it take on the Underground to get from Waterloo to St. Pancras? On a good day with all tube connections runing well, I can do it in 25 minutes. However, that's cutting it fine to say the least. I usualy reckon on half an hour, but there have been times when even that isn't enough.

Originally, Eurostar said that they would still continue to run some trains from Waterloo after the transfer to St. Pancras. That's good, I thought. We won't have to slog through the Underground with all our luggage when St. Pancras opens and we move to Hampshire.

So what happened to that idea?!

As I said in a previous posting, at the moment, I have a foot in both camps as I currently live on the ECML and St. Pancras suits me fine. However, as we hope to be moving to Hampshire shortly, Waterloo, will then be far better.

Am I alone in campaigning for the reinstatement of Waterloo for at least some international trains?

Once again, swings and roundabouts. King's Cross to Waterloo takes 20-30 minutes, and has an awkward change either at Euston or Oxford Circus, both of which require passengers to yomp their luggage through tunnels including quite a few steps. It's a question of whether people living south of London should be inconvenienced for the benefit of those north of London. Ideally, neither should be, but that would require a lot of extra costs now. The original plan was to keep North Pole open and to cycle sets through Waterloo if they needed maintenance.

 

[Geezertronic]

I obviously don't know exactly where in Hampshire you will be moving to, but I presume your route into London would take you through Clapham Junction where you could change to a train taking you into Victoria, where you can catch the Circle into Kings Cross St Pancras?

 

[jopsuk]

LE Grays- the change (between Kings Cross and Waterloo) at oxford Circus is short and flat in both directions- though the tunnels to and from the Underground to the main line stations at either are long and tortuous.

 

[MrC]

Having done Waterloo to St. P and back this week with family and a small amount of luggage I can sympathise with those who want to travel by Eurostar from the SWML, especially if carrying more than just a bit of hand luggage. The London connections aren't simple (apart from maybe the 59 bus or a taxi) and traversing St.P itself is an amazingly long and tortuous walk especially from the Underground. It would certainly put me off using Eurostar for holiday use.