Waterloo Platform Extensions, Station Platforms and Throat Remodeling.

[swt_passenger]

I think the plan is lower level concourse for Windsors and lots of retail!

There'll be a lower level concourse to connect the Windsor side platforms directly with the Bakerloo and Northern gateline level. It is mentioned in the stuff I quoted on page 1 of the thread.

From what I've read elsewhere any retail areas under the platform level will be accessed mostly from outside the station; it will be aimed more towards the York Way area rather than for use by people on the main station concourse. Network Rail may not become the landlord of that area.

 

[rj90]

Loads of shops is the answer to your question - who owns them is being wrangled by NR and LCR (who manage WIT on behalf of the DfT). The connection to the tube will be in the same place as it always was, into the peak hour subway, but on the WIT side you'll be able to get to it much more easily. At the London end stairs will connect to the lower concourse and a new bridge to the platform level concourse. Windsor trains are planned to use p19-24 and as the p19-20 connection is retained you will be able to get to all the required platforms from the new concourse. P18 to be used sparingly.

As for what happened to all the ticket and X ray machines, the story goes that Ebbsfleet opened a week later than St Pancras so they could move all that kit straight there. It certainly looked that way - nothing had been removed neatly, it was certainly a rush job.

Sadly very little with any Eurostar or channel tunnel branding was left - so nothing for the memorabilia aficionados.

 

[swt_passenger]

Minor correction, P19 -24 will not just be for "Windsor" trains, but all "Windsor Side" services. So Windsor, Reading, Weybridge, Hounslow Loop etc, will all effectively have their own station within a station...

 

[hwl]

Minor correction, P19 -24 will not just be for "Windsor" trains, but all "Windsor Side" services. So Windsor, Reading, Weybridge, Hounslow Loop etc, will all effectively have their own station within a station...

I assumed everyone was using Windsors to meant Windsor line services which is what NR call it...

 

[swt_passenger]

I assumed everyone was using Windsors to meant Windsor line services which is what NR call it...

It isn't always obvious in some discussions; but in pointing it out I wasn't intending any criticism of the earlier post.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Are there any plans to remove the flyover at Queenstown Road and re-instate four tracking? Surely this will turn into a bottle neck if nothing is done, and it hard to see what use the flyover now has.

I had read somewhere else that platform 1 at Queenstown Road is to be re-opened so associated works must be planned.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any plans to remove the flyover at Queenstown Road and re-instate four tracking? Surely this will turn into a bottle neck if nothing is done, and it hard to see what use the flyover now has.

I had read somewhere else that platform 1 at Queenstown Road is to be re-opened so associated works must be planned.

No plans to remove the flyover, or to reinstate four tracking. It is discussed earlier in this thread, (I uploaded a drawing in post #26 and linked to it in post#55 when you last asked about this), but although the future track layout between Waterloo and through Vauxhall and Queenstown Road does change, it is only going to be two tracks at Queenstown Rd.

 

[hwl]

No plans to remove the flyover, or to reinstate four tracking. It is discussed earlier in this thread, (I uploaded a drawing in post #26 and linked to it in post#55 when you last asked about this), but although the future track layout between Waterloo and through Vauxhall and Queenstown Road does change, it is only going to be two tracks at Queenstown Rd.

Unless they rebuild the BML overbridge (as mentioned as a potential option by RJ90) and use the spare track bed between P1&2 which gets you 5 SWML+ 3 Windsors (with middle though track at Queenstown Road)

 

[infobleep]

How did the four tracks work in the past? Where there benefits to having four tracks back then?

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[swt_passenger]

How did the four tracks work in the past? Where there benefits to having four tracks back then?

There weren't four tracks all the way through Queenstown Road. The Eurostar flyover didnt change things as much as is often assumed.

 

[randompixel]

These were being handed out at Vauxhall today. 12 months warning!

 

[swt_passenger]

These were being handed out at Vauxhall today. 12 months warning!

There'll still be people complaining in the Standard and Metro next August that there was no warning warning whatsoever...

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless they rebuild the BML overbridge (as mentioned as a potential option by RJ90) and use the spare track bed between P1&2 which gets you 5 SWML+ 3 Windsors (with middle though track at Queenstown Road)

That completely confused me. The BML (Bournemouth Main Line) goes under the line from Victoria to Brighton (VTB).

(Engineers' joke)

 

[hwl]

That completely confused me. The BML (Bournemouth Main Line) goes under the line from Victoria to Brighton (VTB).

(Engineers' joke)

My bad, should be much more careful given NR uses BML twice and uses SW instead of Bourrnemouth on lots of occasions...
...VTB overbridge...

 

[Midmat]

These were being handed out at Vauxhall today. 12 months warning!

Website has the leaflet too with some limited info on service expected at each station. E.g. Chessington branch will be closed for three weeks and Norbiton looks shut too despite some services still going to Kingston.

https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/plan-your-journey/planned-improvements/wswupgrade/

 

[Bald Rick]

My bad, should be much more careful given NR uses BML twice and uses SW instead of Bourrnemouth on lots of occasions...
...VTB overbridge...

I always wanted to reopen the line from Alresford to Winchester, and call it BML2

 

[infobleep]

Website has the leaflet too with some limited info on service expected at each station. E.g. Chessington branch will be closed for three weeks and Norbiton looks shut too despite some services still going to Kingston.

https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/plan-your-journey/planned-improvements/wswupgrade/

Would it not be possible to terminate trains earlier. So run a shuttle service so to speak. I admit less trains can run overall whatever happens but would that be possible? I suspect not give they are not doing that but thought I'd ask.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interesting to note that when these works start, South West Trains might not even be the franchise holder.

I might like it if they were but it's not my decision.

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[Helvellyn]

These were being handed out at Vauxhall today. 12 months warning!

Sensible idea actually. I saw one today and liked that they were asking people to consider when they take their holidays. The school holidays do see a dip in commuter traffic, so encouraging people to actively look at booking their holiday during the closure makes sense.

You can guarantee there will be no promo fares into London like the current £16 one, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was something to encourage those wanting days out to head to the Coast and West of England.

My other hunches: -

• 12-car 450s on most mainline peak services - even some of the stuff up from Weymouth - to keep the seat count up with fewer trains.
• 450s on the Ascot-Guildford route to allow 456s to run with 455s on more services to/from Waterloo - 10-car 455/456 formations won't be an issue with platforms 1-9 shut.
• As many 707s in use as possible on the Windsor Line services to allow 10-car 458/5s to be used on suburban routes too (where cleared).
• Stand-by trains (all crewed up) at Clapham/Wimbledon ready to be rolled out of something goes wrong to keep people moving, as well as other Depots around the network.
• GWR and Southern touting for business where they can take people - preferences might be for a longer trip if you can know you will have a seat.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

These were being handed out at Vauxhall today. 12 months warning!

I'm intrigued. My vague impression - gained from reading this forum - was that extending platforms 1-4 was considered impossible because of the narrowing of the throat just outside the station: There wouldn't be anywhere to put the platform extensions without blocking where the various tracks merge into the up/down suburban Wimbledon lines.

I take it that's not the case?

 

[Dstock7080]

District Line services between the city and Wimbledon are the be 'enhanced' during the period of the Waterloo closure.

 

[nlogax]

Is there a link to the proposed improvements at Surbiton as part of the WCIP? I can't find any detail.

 

[NSEFAN]

District Line services between the city and Wimbledon are the be 'enhanced' during the period of the Waterloo closure.

I presume that rules out any regular daytime SWML diversions via East Putney?

 

[hwl]

I'm intrigued. My vague impression - gained from reading this forum - was that extending platforms 1-4 was considered impossible because of the narrowing of the throat just outside the station: There wouldn't be anywhere to put the platform extensions without blocking where the various tracks merge into the up/down suburban Wimbledon lines.

I take it that's not the case?

Not impossible just difficult /expensive for 10car and serious expensive for 12car hence why they aren't going for that yet.

From memory as I don't have the details in front of me at the moment...
P1-4 used to be 10car but required some very unreliable custom point work (curved triple points and double slips) so BR shortened the platforms (in 1974???) to allow more conventional and reliable S&C to be fitted.

The work will include new point for P1-7 but this needs P1-9 closing to do the work.

The rest of Waterloo is also getting new points in the throat over time with the Windsor line trains mostly moving into P20-24 allowing a bit more width over Station Approach, Westminster Bridge Road and Upper Marsh.

 

[swt_passenger]

The rest of Waterloo is also getting new points in the throat over time with the Windsor line trains mostly moving into P20-24 allowing a bit more width over Station Approach, Westminster Bridge Road and Upper Marsh.

I don't think there's a track plan available yet, but from what people have said the main suburban side 'throat' will extend much further out, to avoid the customised S&C you have mentioned that was needed when they were previously 10 car length. I seem to recall one of the sidings alongside the down main slow is removed as well.

IIRC the full 10 car service will also operate from 6 platforms, with longer layovers, as the throat will effectively be simplified and there wont be so many non conflicting moves available. Or something like that. So if that's right about the main suburban service group spreading out over more platforms, then the normal platform allocations for the main fasts both 'move over' by two and then spread out because the Windosrs are using P19-24, then it follows that certain existing links from the main fasts into low numbered platforms might not be needed.

I subsequently checked out the summary in the CP5 enhancement plan, and it includes this:

lengthening of platforms 1-4
shortening of platforms 5-6
narrowing of the country end of platforms 7-8

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm intrigued. My vague impression - gained from reading this forum - was that extending platforms 1-4 was considered impossible because of the narrowing of the throat just outside the station:

There was definitely an earlier proposed solution that involved taking P1 and P2 out of use, and fully lengthening P3-6 for the main suburban group, and it made its way into publicly available info at one stage.

Edited to add, each of the successive CP4 enhancements delivery plan updates between Mar 2009 and Dec 2011 all referred to closure of P1 and P2. The Mar 2012 update removed the paragraph. The latest update includes lengthening, shortening and narrowing as listed in the above reply.

The solution they have chosen is optimised for 10 car, so if they ever moved up to 12 car there'd have to be more changes. But I suspect they are hoping that possibility will lapse if Crossrail 2 is built.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there a link to the proposed improvements at Surbiton as part of the WCIP? I can't find any detail.

All I can find is one line in the CP5 enhancement plans, Mar 2016 update:

Surbiton – new staircase from platform to existing footbridge, widening of gate line

 

[coppercapped]

Not impossible just difficult /expensive for 10car and serious expensive for 12car hence why they aren't going for that yet.

From memory as I don't have the details in front of me at the moment...
P1-4 used to be 10car but required some very unreliable custom point work (curved triple points and double slips) so BR shortened the platforms (in 1974???) to allow more conventional and reliable S&C to be fitted.

The work will include new point for P1-7 but this needs P1-9 closing to do the work.

The rest of Waterloo is also getting new points in the throat over time with the Windsor line trains mostly moving into P20-24 allowing a bit more width over Station Approach, Westminster Bridge Road and Upper Marsh.

I have some old pictures of Waterloo shown two 4-SUBs fitting neatly into Platforms 1-4. I don't think these platforms ever could take 10 coach trains. Your point about WARS (Waterloo Area Resignalling Scheme) in the 70s was to use standard S&C work is absolutely correct. As a result the series of crossings (two diagonal lines of double slips) in the station throat were removed.

There was an article in one of the railway magazines a few months ago (sorry - can't remember which one!) explaining why the 10 coach trains needed 6 platforms. The longer trains need more time to clear junctions and crossings so in order to keep the same train throughput, and to add a bit of spare capacity, there has to be more parallel working and more platform capacity. The idea is to reduce the incidence of conflicting movements in the throat at least over a given period.

I hope I remembered that correctly otherwise the pedant army will be close on my heels!

 

[Tio Terry]

Is there a link to the proposed improvements at Surbiton as part of the WCIP? I can't find any detail.

Surbiton is currently on hold, probably going back in time to CP6.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHtX-OFFoZs

Bit of a time capsule at the old Eurostar terminal. When all the works are finished and that extra LU gate line is reinstated will that have much affect on passenger flows to and from the Underground?

 

[MarkyT]

I have some old pictures of Waterloo shown two 4-SUBs fitting neatly into Platforms 1-4. I don't think these platforms ever could take 10 coach trains. Your point about WARS (Waterloo Area Resignalling Scheme) in the 70s was to use standard S&C work is absolutely correct. As a result the series of crossings (two diagonal lines of double slips) in the station throat were removed.

There was an article in one of the railway magazines a few months ago (sorry - can't remember which one!) explaining why the 10 coach trains needed 6 platforms. The longer trains need more time to clear junctions and crossings so in order to keep the same train throughput, and to add a bit of spare capacity, there has to be more parallel working and more platform capacity. The idea is to reduce the incidence of conflicting movements in the throat at least over a given period.

I hope I remembered that correctly otherwise the pedant army will be close on my heels!

Good explanation. #5-7 have historically been considered 'overflow' platforms for the slows anyway with less intensive use by fast trains than other platforms, and an independent access from the slow lines that doesn't conflict with other fast line movements. #5 & 6 are shorter than most of the rest of the main platforms and cannot accommodate the longest 12x20m or 10x23m formations. 6 and 9-car 159 DMUs for the Salisbury line fit perfectly and often use these platforms today, and of course they're perfect for the new 10 car suburbans along with the lengthened #1-4.

Train lengthening is not the only reason for the extra platform requirements. Trains will also take longer to clear the throat because for some movements, distance to clear the junctions will also be greater simply because the pointwork will be more spread out, i.e the throat will be physically longer than it is today. The existing #1-4 layout for 8 cars is highly optimised for very fast clearance of the throat junctions by departing trains due to the two scissors crossovers situated immediately at the end of the platforms ramps - an ideal layout. With the platform extensions, I understand the same feature was impossible to replicate exactly because the track formation narrows so quickly as it takes its sharp left hand curve over Westminster Bridge Road on departure, so the new throat, although maintaining all the simultaneous parallel moves of it's predecessor, is lengthened somewhat, and at the low throat speed (neccessary because of the proximity of the platforms and the approach curvature), that adds not insignificant time to complete certain combinations of sequential movements. In such a busy location, even a few seconds can be important.

 

[Chris125]

I have some old pictures of Waterloo shown two 4-SUBs fitting neatly into Platforms 1-4. I don't think these platforms ever could take 10 coach trains.

They originally extended some distance beyond the roof, surely enough for 10-cars - you can see their original length in this map and how far they extended beyond a pair of 4SUBS in this 1974 photo

 

[rj90]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHtX-OFFoZs

Bit of a time capsule at the old Eurostar terminal. When all the works are finished and that extra LU gate line is reinstated will that have much affect on passenger flows to and from the Underground?

Flows will be much improved, with far fewer people using the current single (of three) escalators down to the baker loo/northern/W&C concourse.

To answer some of the queries

Surbiton is pushed back to CP6 due to the spending review. Also related to that, QTP platform 1 and station works are also CP6, as is the hounslow loop.

Platforms 5/6 are getting shortened by about 5m, so 1-6 will be pretty much the same length. 7/8 is indeed narrowed and realigned marginally at the country end.

Turnout speeds are not reduced below the current 15mph.

12 car is impossible in 1-6 without either moving the incoming signal gantry, or adding an extra deck on the south end of Westminster bridge road overbridge; or maybe both. Unlikely to happen as the modellers hope the capacity increase by this project will last until the slow lines go into the crossrail 2 tunnels.