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jopsuk

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Only the coroner can confirm suicide, the police can suspect it and the newspapers can merely speculate.
 

Smethwickian

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Errr, Smethwick!
The Daily Mail has confirmed suicide, weather its true or not.

No, the Daily Mail says "it has been claimed" she committed suicide. Of course only the coroner makes the definitive legal decision.

However, as a journalist of 23 years and a former local newspaper editor for nine, I would respectfully point out that what most of the mainstream media has published is based on a reasonable and legally sustainable interpretation, based on experience, of the very carefully chosen phrases issued by police in describing the incident.
 

ChrisCooper

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It's always interesting when looking at articles like this that they rarely have anything to back up their claims, or the backup will be speculation or unconcrete itself. The number of times "i've heard......" or "it might be...." are used to backup wild claims in newspapers, particularly the likes of the Mail, is ridiculous.

In this case, the Mail says that it's been claimed it was suicide. Claimed by who? Another passenger, an official? The latter can be worst for this sort of thing as people feel that anyone dealing with the incident must know exactly what has gone on, yet in many cases will have no more of a clue than the general public and are just going on rumours. They are also likely to want to remain annonymous (wheras public bystanders tend to want their name published).

The media also has a wonderful way of escaping when it turns out their claims are totally false. They seem most loose when it comes to speculation with their online content, as this is easily edited to keep it up to date with the current "truth".
 

jon0844

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The media now has Twitter too, so it is easy to run a story on anything by saying it's being reported on Twitter.

It seems the media now assumes that it's fine to report what someone else has said in the same way as a properly researched/verified story, but if proven wrong, simply point out that it was only from Twitter, so what did anyone expect? As ChrisCooper says, for the online/TV sites you simply delete the story and never mention it again!

How many stories have you heard about late at night (or through the night) that you thought you'd find out more about in the morning, then it's gone. Did you dream it? Well, maybe, as unless Google still has it cached, it's history. Naturally, you can't easily show how often this happens as the stories are gone (or edited heavily, such that Google now replaces the incorrect copy with something else and helps hide the mistake).

Online has really helped lazy journalists, who can now write something now and then add to the story (or correct it) later. It also makes it easy to write stuff that can be deleted completely, even including material that could land a publisher in deep trouble if put into print - but where lawyers might be content to simply have the online story removed.

But, despite this, I think the media do know how to read between the lines on certain things and report accurately more often than not, even before getting the official confirmation.
 
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bnm

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What usually happens in circumstances such as this tragic incident is the police will make a statement with such phrases as; 'we are not looking for anyone in connection with this incident', or 'the death is not being treated as suspicious'. Another common phrase when it comes to an incident such as this is, 'a file is being prepared for the coroner'.

The media (in particular the more bombastic print media such as the Daily Mail or Sun) will infer things from those police statements that may or may not be wholly true. Sometimes the quotes from 'a spokesmen' are just made up by the hack writing the piece. Other times the inference is made from the set form of words used by the police. Or from interviewing witnesses. That said, the Daily Mail (or any news outlet) will not 'confirm suicide' (as one poster upthread suggested they had done). Doing so would put them on shaky legal ground and in certain circumstances may lead to a prosecution for contempt of court. Instead they use phrases such as 'it is believed....'.

So, until a coroner delivers a verdict, the cause of death in circumstances such as the one being discussed here, remains 'suspected' as far as the police are concerned and 'speculated' as far as the media are concerned.
 

Sapphire Blue

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What usually happens in circumstances such as this tragic incident is the police will make a statement with such phrases as; 'we are not looking for anyone in connection with this incident', or 'the death is not being treated as suspicious'. Another common phrase when it comes to an incident such as this is, 'a file is being prepared for the coroner'.

The media (in particular the more bombastic print media such as the Daily Mail or Sun) will infer things from those police statements that may or may not be wholly true. Sometimes the quotes from 'a spokesmen' are just made up by the hack writing the piece. Other times the inference is made from the set form of words used by the police. Or from interviewing witnesses. That said, the Daily Mail (or any news outlet) will not 'confirm suicide' (as one poster upthread suggested they had done). Doing so would put them on shaky legal ground and in certain circumstances may lead to a prosecution for contempt of court. Instead they use phrases such as 'it is believed....'.

So, until a coroner delivers a verdict, the cause of death in circumstances such as the one being discussed here, remains 'suspected' as far as the police are concerned and 'speculated' as far as the media are concerned.

Or the journos, having worked with the police on many such occasions, often the same newsos and the same officers, will be "tipped the wink" "off the record" "you didn't get it from me, but . . ."

It can, and does, help the news flow smoother and can lead to less speculation about unpleasant happenings.

Helps both sides.
 

bnm

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Totally agree with that Sapphire Blue. Journos do indeed get 'off the record' quotes form the emergency services....

Unfortunately I'm a little jaded when it comes to reading press articles that quote 'a spokesman'. Or use phrases such as 'it is believed....'

You end up with folks saying "The Daily Mail has confirmed suicide", when that is not the case at all. Maybe not the fault of the press.... but the form of words they use can lead people to believe that is what they are saying.

The usual caveat applies: Don't believe everything you read in the papers. (Or, in these modern times, what they post on their websites.)

My own personal opinion, based on all that I've read, is that, on the balance of probabilities, this particular incident is indeed suicide. But I still remain open to the possibility that a coroner's inquest will say otherwise.
 
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junglejames

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Didnt really look a write off from the couple of pics. Possibly just the area around the toilet is damaged.
 

NightatLaira

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14 Jun 2010
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490
I assume this set will now get repaired. My question is: is the train likely to be renumbered as is often the case in tragedies? Drivers are very superstitious of these things and that toilet in 350232 is never quite going to be looked at in the same way again. I know I wouldn't want to use it now.

The numbers in 1N84 also add up to 13 - I apologise in advance if it is too soon to start mentioning these things but as an avid follower of the 'haunted railways thread', well, you know what I'm getting at...
 

Simon Poole

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21 Apr 2010
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549
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Brereton, Rugeley, Staffordshire
I assume this set will now get repaired. My question is: is the train likely to be renumbered as is often the case in tragedies? Drivers are very superstitious of these things and that toilet in 350232 is never quite going to be looked at in the same way again. I know I wouldn't want to use it now.

The numbers in 1N84 also add up to 13 - I apologise in advance if it is too soon to start mentioning these things but as an avid follower of the 'haunted railways thread', well, you know what I'm getting at...

Depends which Toliet! there 2 on the 350/2, one for Wheelchair access and an side one near 1st Class
 

Ivo

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8 Jan 2010
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Bath (or Southend)
The numbers in 1N84 also add up to 13 - I apologise in advance if it is too soon to start mentioning these things but as an avid follower of the 'haunted railways thread', well, you know what I'm getting at...

Oh come on; that's taking superstition too far. The whole 13 thing is related to Christianity, and as a total non-believer is of no relevance to me at all. In fact, I would even go as far as to say that 13 is my third luckiest number, after 3 and 31 (my birthday; 13 shares the same numbers). Would the Koreans say something similar if their system (whatever it may be) brought up a train identified with the number 4?

It is safe to say that this was not the first, or the last, such event to have a headcode totalling 13.

I'm not trying to belittle the other thread [I would get in trouble if I did!]; I'm just being rational.
 

lm321412

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Joined
29 Apr 2010
Messages
537
Location
Birmingham
I'd have thought there's no CCTV in the loo though. I'd be quite concerned if there is! Beyond that, I'd guess the CCTv footage is unlikely to show anything more than someone entering the loo, possibly with a bag? I suppose it can help rule out foul play, but beyond that?

Somebody asked me if the Desiros have CCTV, I answered the question!
 

bnm

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12 Oct 2009
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4,992
I assume this set will now get repaired. My question is: is the train likely to be renumbered as is often the case in tragedies? Drivers are very superstitious of these things and that toilet in 350232 is never quite going to be looked at in the same way again. I know I wouldn't want to use it now.

The numbers in 1N84 also add up to 13 - I apologise in advance if it is too soon to start mentioning these things but as an avid follower of the 'haunted railways thread', well, you know what I'm getting at...

Ignore the last digit of the unit number 350232 and that also adds up to 13. Oh, and their are 13 letters in 'London Midland'.

By the way, I've got my tongue planted very firmly in my cheek. What an absolutely bonkers hypothesis for this incident. :roll::roll::roll:
 

Ivo

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I guess it's just as well Northampton hsn't been renamed "Morthampton", which would then give 1M84 (M being the 13th letter of the alphabet)?
 

Crossover

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4 Jun 2009
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Yorkshire
I assume this set will now get repaired. My question is: is the train likely to be renumbered as is often the case in tragedies? Drivers are very superstitious of these things and that toilet in 350232 is never quite going to be looked at in the same way again. I know I wouldn't want to use it now.

The numbers in 1N84 also add up to 13 - I apologise in advance if it is too soon to start mentioning these things but as an avid follower of the 'haunted railways thread', well, you know what I'm getting at...

Yeah - I would agree that from the pictures that have been about that damage is likely to be localised.

I also agree that we are going a little far in relating it to the headcode adding up to 13...how many services a day run with similarly summed headcodes?

From looking at the pictures, coack A looked to be at the front so I think the fire may have been in coach C judging by location in relation to the bridge but I'm not sure on the layout of the units
 

DaveNewcastle

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21 Dec 2007
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7,387
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Newcastle (unless I'm out)
Somebody asked me if the Desiros have CCTV, I answered the question!
I can think of one operator who would have to give different answers, depending on which of these 4 questions was asked:
1. Are your trains fitted with CCTV equipment?
2. Does your company have a valid Surveillance Licence?
3. Is any of the CCTV equipment on your trains used?
4. Are the images from the internal CCTV cameras on your trains recorded?
 

Skimble19

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Joined
12 Dec 2009
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1,503
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London
Judging by the fact that from a couple of pictures the lights inside of the train were still on in all areas except in the half of the coach containing the toilet I'd guess its just that area that's damaged.. a lot of melted plastic to replace and a toilet to refit probably. Certainly didn't appear to be any external damage.. although thats just going by the few pictures that are available.
 

alanf

Member
Joined
9 Jan 2010
Messages
129
If i'm not mistaken perfume is very flamable. Has this woman gone for a sly fag and put on a bit of smelly in a confined space as she lighting up? Don't try this at home but has anyone ever seen an aerosol can sprayed on a naked flame?

Alan
 

amcluesent

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2010
Messages
877
Yep, as a kid I enjoyed squirting WD40 over a match...

The Mail is reporting the woman was in a mental hospial for a decade after killing her child, and this event was on the 14th anniversary of his death. She had made a suicide attempt then. She had a taken a can of explosive gas into the toilet. Probably not an accident.
 
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Ibex

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Joined
23 Jan 2010
Messages
789
To briefly move away from the finer details of the incident, 350 232 is now having its duties covered by the 321 units which recently returned from National Express.

They are currently working the diagram they worked before the December timetable:

2W24 07:12 Bletchley to London Euston
2K21 08:24 London Euston to Milton Keynes Central
2K22 09:47 Milton Keynes Central to London Euston
2W09 18:54 London Euston to Milton Keynes Central

A comment from LM on their Twitter page suggests 350 232 may be returning to Germany.
 
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