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WCML Signal 113 (near Primrose Hill tunnel) fault

Railperf

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Can anyone shed light on why signal 113 is causing every fast northbound WCML to come to a stand before clearing, costing most trains a 2 -3 minute delay. And furthermore why is it taking so long to be fixed. Surely it is coming up to a month this has been faulty?
 
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185

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No answer but I too have been caught up in this a few times now on the DF ...and randomly brought to a stop coming into London on the Up Fast in last couple of days at same place.
 

Bald Rick

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Can anyone shed light on why signal 113 is causing every fast northbound WCML to come to a stand before clearing, costing most trains a 2 -3 minute delay. And furthermore why is it taking so long to be fixed. Surely it is coming up to a month this has been faulty?
It doesn’t cause every train to come to a stand; I’ve been through 3 times this week and every time we were down to about 15-20mph before it cleared.

There were some major issues with the interlockign there a few weeks back, it might be related to that.
 

Tilting007

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It doesn’t cause every train to come to a stand; I’ve been through 3 times this week and every time we were down to about 15-20mph before it cleared.

There were some major issues with the interlockign there a few weeks back, it might be related to that

It has approach control applied due to issues with the datalinks.

Down Fast and Up Fast both affected.

It has approach control applied due to issues with the datalinks.

Down Fast and Up Fast both affected.
5 weeks now.
clearly a complex issue.
 
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Railperf

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It has approach control applied due to issues with the datalinks.

Down Fast and Up Fast both affected.


5 weeks now.
clearly a complex issue.
Funny enough, I described it to a pal as seeming to clear in the same way as approach control. Is there no way of creating a slightly longer temporary block section linked to the signal after it?
Can anyone elaborate on what is meant by issues with the data links? Does that mean a cable is damaged from the relay room to the signal that tells it what aspect to display, or indeed suggest a problem in the relay room?
And is it a case after 5 weeks that the exact faulty component or cable has not been identified or that replacement requires parts that need to be manufactured or time requiring more than a night's possession to rectify?
 

Nippy

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The reason the Approach Control is on is because the signal reverts to danger/randomly changes aspects then the drivers are approaching. WM116 on the UF is the same.

There is random electrical interference that causes the Datalink issue. The technicians have been working to find where that is coming from, but it covers the interlocking on the Fast Lines that goes from Park Street tunnels to Kensal Green Tunnel so it’s a large area to cover and it’s proving elusive. It’s frustrating for both drivers and us signallers.
 

Bald Rick

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Can anyone elaborate on what is meant by issues with the data links? Does that mean a cable is damaged from the relay room to the signal that tells it what aspect to display, or indeed suggest a problem in the relay room?

There arent any relay rooms on the south end of the WCML!
 

pnepaul

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I wonder you all make of this - taken from today's The Scotsman newspaper

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...attempt-postponed-by-signalling-fault-5110955

Rail campaigners have condemned the failure to speed up Glasgow-London rail journeys after Avanti West Coast was forced to postpone its attempt to break the record next week because of a signalling fault.
The train operator had hoped to better the three hours 52 minutes fastest time set 41 years ago after failing in a previous attempt in 2021 by just 21 seconds.
 
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Railperf

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The signalling issues at Camden cause more than 2 min delay to northbound fast line trains. The Carstairs TSR in 2021 cost 1.5 mins and was a factor in the record attempt being missed by 21 seconds. So a no brainer to postpone until the Camden issue is sorted - which seems to be eluding NR at the moment.
 

Flying Snail

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Good.

Frankly the idea of trying to eke out a "victory" by beating a 40 year old record by a matter of seconds is beyond pathetic. Come back when there is a real journey time improvement, until then leave the APT record stand.

*Not good that there is a persistent fault delaying service trains that people actually rely on however.
 

The Planner

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Good.

Frankly the idea of trying to eke out a "victory" by beating a 40 year old record by a matter of seconds is beyond pathetic. Come back when there is a real journey time improvement, until then leave the APT record stand.

*Not good that there is a persistent fault delaying service trains that people actually rely on however.
Whats constitutes "real"?
 

Tilting007

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The signalling issues at Camden cause more than 2 min delay to northbound fast line trains. The Carstairs TSR in 2021 cost 1.5 mins and was a factor in the record attempt being missed by 21 seconds. So a no brainer to postpone until the Camden issue is sorted - which seems to be eluding NR at the moment.
I agree. No point starting a 401 mile journey and knowing after three you have failed.
Anything can fail on the day to cause delay, but if there is a risk both NR and AWC know about it is absolutely the right to do.
Plan it after the hot weather.
There will no doubt be hidden benefits for work that had been done for next week on speed restrictions or other faults.

No doubt plenty of charitable causes will benefit from the run too!
 
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AndrewE

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Whats constitutes "real" [journey time improvement]?
Maybe a quarter or half an hour off a long-distance service - and without knocking out intermediate stops at important stations and junctions?

(Give us back our Crewe stops on the Class 1 Euston to Glasgows!)
 

The Planner

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Maybe a quarter or half an hour off a long-distance service - and without knocking out intermediate stops at important stations and junctions?

(Give us back our Crewe stops on the Class 1 Euston to Glasgows!)
The only thing that could have delivered that has been canned.
 

Mag_seven

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Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for the discussion of the ongoing issues at WCML Signal 113 (near Primrose Hill tunnel).

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread elsewhere. :)
 

Pendomonium

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The reason the Approach Control is on is because the signal reverts to danger/randomly changes aspects then the drivers are approaching. WM116 on the UF is the same.

There is random electrical interference that causes the Datalink issue. The technicians have been working to find where that is coming from, but it covers the interlocking on the Fast Lines that goes from Park Street tunnels to Kensal Green Tunnel so it’s a large area to cover and it’s proving elusive. It’s frustrating for both drivers and us signallers.
This has not been explained to drivers in all the time the situation has been in place. Some seem to think it is only cleared when it can show a green aspect, which is not the case.
 

Tilting007

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This has not been explained to drivers in all the time the situation has been in place. Some seem to think it is only cleared when it can show a green aspect, which is not the case.
No - it is to avoid the signal rolling through the aspects being encountered at linespeed.
 

kacper

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Not sure if it has been mentioned but the world record attempt for London to Glasgow has been postponed because of these signalling issues
 

Annetts key

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Can anyone shed light on why signal 113 is causing every fast northbound WCML to come to a stand before clearing, costing most trains a 2 -3 minute delay. And furthermore why is it taking so long to be fixed. Surely it is coming up to a month this has been faulty?

Funny enough, I described it to a pal as seeming to clear in the same way as approach control. Is there no way of creating a slightly longer temporary block section linked to the signal after it?
Can anyone elaborate on what is meant by issues with the data links? Does that mean a cable is damaged from the relay room to the signal that tells it what aspect to display, or indeed suggest a problem in the relay room?
And is it a case after 5 weeks that the exact faulty component or cable has not been identified or that replacement requires parts that need to be manufactured or time requiring more than a night's possession to rectify?
Without design changes, no, it's not practical to alter the signal block sections. And even if this was done, I don't think it would help with this problem.

Think of datalinks as similar to a ADSL broadband using a conventional copper telephone cable. Except it's a party line with many "modems" connected to it.

A single datalink originates at the computer based interlocking. Then it either feeds copper lineside cables directly or goes via a telecoms transmission system (which could be via fibre optic cables) and then feeds copper lineside cables.

The copper lineside cables datalink feeds every trackside functional module (TFM) in every lineside location cupboard/cabinet or REB (relocatable equipment building) in an area. And this area can be many, many miles long. Datalink modules and line isolating transformers are used to break the system into sections (to limit induced voltage from OHL or power lines). Datalink modules also try to clean-up the digital signals.

If noise affects the digital signals carried by the datalink, this noise could be coming from any TFM, from a datalink module or from an external cause. Cable damage is also possible, but this is or should be easier to track down.

The reason the Approach Control is on is because the signal reverts to danger/randomly changes aspects then the drivers are approaching. WM116 on the UF is the same.

There is random electrical interference that causes the Datalink issue. The technicians have been working to find where that is coming from, but it covers the interlocking on the Fast Lines that goes from Park Street tunnels to Kensal Green Tunnel so it’s a large area to cover and it’s proving elusive. It’s frustrating for both drivers and us signallers.
This problem with noise causing problems is a real pain to track down. And I am not surprised it's taking this amount of time. I've worked on similar datalink faults in the past.

The biggest issue is that if too many messages between the interlocking and a TFM are lost or corrupted, the TFM that controls a signal will revert the signal to red. And the interlocking will treat any signals controlled by that TFM as unlit (black) or treat any track circuits as occupied. Similarity, for TFM controlling points, the interlocking will treat them as not being correctly detected. Either-way, the interlocking will command the relevant protecting signal(s) to red.

But once communication is re-established, everything returns to normal. Until the next time messages are lost/corrupted.

For any S&T reading, I have deliberately left out some of the normal terminology and not gone into the full details in an effort not to make it even harder to explain in simple terms.
 

Railperf

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So what we are saying here is that the system is so complex now that we cannot find a simple workaround to get past the affected signal until the issue is solved.
Out of interest, is it just the aspects being displayed on signal 113 that is affected, or does that have a knock on effect. I.e if it is green and suddenly turns to red, does that change the aspects of the signals behind?
It also seems strange in these days of computerised systems that if signal 113 is faulty that you electronically lock it out and connect signal 111 to the aspects displayed on 117 and 119? Or is the system not flexible enough to allow that?
 

skyhigh

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I.e if it is green and suddenly turns to red, does that change the aspects of the signals behind?
It will have to change the preceding signals, as it would be a major irregularity to go from a green to a red (under normal signalling rules).
Or is the system not flexible enough to allow that?
I highly doubt it. It would require significant changes to allow the system to 'ignore' signals.
 

alxndr

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So what we are saying here is that the system is so complex now that we cannot find a simple workaround to get past the affected signal until the issue is solved.
The workaround has been to temporarily apply approach control to the signal so that if the issue does reoccur the risk of a SPAD is reduced as trains are already travelling at a reduced speed on approach to the signal.

Previous systems would not have had the option of temporarily applying approach controls and given no additional options for workarounds.

In most cases the complexity of an SSI system is a benefit. Datalink systems are duplicated for reliability and so if a fault occurs on the A link the B link automatically takes over seamlessly, or vice versa. No one outside of those involved in rectifying the issue, and the signaller receiving an alarm, is any the wiser. Unfortunately there are some rare occasions like this where noise becomes an issue, and the duplication increases the amount of possible components where that noise could be entering the system.

Out of interest, is it just the aspects being displayed on signal 113 that is affected, or does that have a knock on effect. I.e if it is green and suddenly turns to red, does that change the aspects of the signals behind?
It will change the aspects of the signals on approach accordingly. As the interlocking no longer knows that WM113 is lit WM111 will display a red, WM109 a yellow, etc.

It also seems strange in these days of computerised systems that if signal 113 is faulty that you electronically lock it out and connect signal 111 to the aspects displayed on 117 and 119? Or is the system not flexible enough to allow that?
The system does not allow this. The only options are to apply temporary approach controls to a signal or to restrict it to danger.

The ability to do this would need to be designed into the interlocking from the beginning. You’d end up doubling the testing involved and therefore the cost. It just wouldn’t be worth it.
 

Annetts key

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So what we are saying here is that the system is so complex now that we cannot find a simple workaround to get past the affected signal until the issue is solved.
Out of interest, is it just the aspects being displayed on signal 113 that is affected, or does that have a knock on effect. I.e if it is green and suddenly turns to red, does that change the aspects of the signals behind?
It also seems strange in these days of computerised systems that if signal 113 is faulty that you electronically lock it out and connect signal 111 to the aspects displayed on 117 and 119? Or is the system not flexible enough to allow that?
Keep in mind that the TFM that controls a signal is a (duplicated for safety) computer system that works as a slave to the commands from the central interlocking. The TFM has no communication with any other TFM so has no knowledge of the what these are doing or not doing. Each TFM follows the commands from the central interlocking. However, if communications are lost (not receiving data or finding that the data is corrupted), regardless of the last command, it will put any signals it controls to red after a short time delay.

Because the affected TFM is not receiving valid data, that TFM will not send it's status back to the central interlocking. The central interlocking will then treat the TFM and all the equipment fed by it as failed. For a signal, that means the central interlocking will treat the signal as being unlit (black) and will command the TFM of the signal in rear to put that signal to red.

The problem is that the communicated data between the TFM and the central interlocking is being lost or corrupted. No amount of possible changes to how the central interlocking computers work can fix a problem with the communications.

The best solution to data corruption on datalinks IMHO, is to reduce the length and complexity of them, by having more seperate datalinks. But that needs a complete system redesign, means a lot of work and a lot of money. Hence that's just not going to happen.
 

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