WCRC banned from running trains on the mainline from 18th Feb 2016 now rescinded

[theironroad]

So, you are saying that the people running this show are not competent in the areas they need to be? It is obvious the drivers are not as the isolation of safety equipment on a train, not reporting it and then passing a danger signal is just totally unacceptable. If the driver operating a train was an up to date qualified driver they would know better and if they didn't shouldn't be operating the train.

I don't know how many drivers wcrc have on their books, but you are implying that all their drivers are not 'competent in the areas they need to be' and do you know for sure that the drivers are not 'up to date qualified'.

Yes, there have been incidents and management of the company seems to be weak in areas, but let's not start saying that all their drivers are bad.

 

[QueensCurve]

The ORR have ruled that WCRC are no longer allowed to run services on the mainline network as of 18th February 2016.

Read the full letter at http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...-17-decision-letter-to-west-coast-railway.pdf

That awkward moment when you're a train company that isn't allowed to drive trains...

This is not surprising given the Wooten Basset incident which revealed, amongst other things, that the company had unilaterally suspended implementation of the action plan that they had agreed with Network Rail.

How little seems to have been learned from that incident. The ongoing catalogue of unreported incidents and apparent violations.

Most astonishing of all is that, following the suspension of the operating licence due to Wooten Basset, and with pending prosecution of the company and a train driver, there was an unauthorised intervention with TPWS at Doncaster.

One of the slightly surprising success stories of the post-privatisation railway is the rise of heritage railtours. It is on the one hand refreshing that companies can make a success of this. It is disappointing that the success hides such appalling failures of leadership and safety culture. Survival of the company must surely be in doubt.

Tellingly West Coast Rail appears to have appointed a Chief Executive and then lost him. This would appear to lend support to ORR's findings about the grandiosity of the Chairman.

Given the failure to learn the lessons of earlier concerns, it remains to be seen whether he will get the message.

 

[QueensCurve]

So, you are saying that the people running this show are not competent in the areas they need to be? It is obvious the drivers are not as the isolation of safety equipment on a train, not reporting it and then passing a danger signal is just totally unacceptable. If the driver operating a train was an up to date qualified driver they would know better and if they didn't shouldn't be operating the train.

ORR raised concerns about the ability to keep drivers' route knowledge up to date. Also the repeated unauthorised isolation of AWS and TPWS [corrected from APT] calls into question the suitability of the drivers who did it.

It seems perhaps a little unfair to tar all their drivers with the same brush.

The West Coast failings do however seem to echo those of Devon and Cornwall Railways in relation to the Stafford SPAD.

 

[billh]

So, you are saying that the people running this show are not competent in the areas they need to be? It is obvious the drivers are not as the isolation of safety equipment on a train, not reporting it and then passing a danger signal is just totally unacceptable. If the driver operating a train was an up to date qualified driver they would know better and if they didn't shouldn't be operating the train.

Sorry but it is time that all the companies running any non-public or preserved rail tours are audited by an outside company like Halcrow if they are still going to ensure not only the safety of the passengers on the tours but the safety of fare paying passengers within the public domain and also the staff who are working on the railway as a career and not as a hobby. It is time that these jollies should be kept to preserved railways and not on the main infrastructure.

Whilst not defending any of WCRC's misdemeanours, the following happened to me a few weeks ago: travelling on an EMU arrives at a wayside station, stops and doors open, passengers getting off and on, some elderly. As they do so the train starts to move forward, not under power, but seemed like no brakes applied, stopped again after rolling 2 or 3 metres. Nobody injured or complaining and doors closed and train went off normally. I expect that no report was made to the TOC and the matter quickly forgotten about. Why is this so different to what WCRC are accused of in the ORR letter?I am not a regular rail passenger so would it be fair to say that such occurrences as described are quite common? It wasn't WCRC so it's OK?

 

[theironroad]

ORR raised concerns about the ability to keep drivers' route knowledge up to date. Also the repeated unauthorised isolation of AWS and APT calls into question the suitability of the drivers who did it.

It seems perhaps a little unfair to tar all their drivers with the same brush.

The West Coast failings do however seem to echo those of Devon and Cornwall Railways in relation to the Stafford SPAD.

I guess you mean tpws rather than apt and yes those TWO incidents were a violation of the rules and should be dealt with in a appropriate safety management system, it does not mean all their drivers are doing it as some of the hang em brigade on here would like to think.

Again,management of route knowledge needs sorting but some of the drivers wcrc have have been driving some of their routes for decades and probably have far better route knowledge than a driver who has been driving for a year and full time employed by a regular TOC.

My fear is that if the improvement notice last year didn't shake the culture up enough, will the prohibition notice?

 

[theironroad]

Whilst not defending any of WCRC's misdemeanours, the following happened to me a few weeks ago: travelling on an EMU arrives at a wayside station, stops and doors open, passengers getting off and on, some elderly. As they do so the train starts to move forward, not under power, but seemed like no brakes applied, stopped again after rolling 2 or 3 metres. Nobody injured or complaining and doors closed and train went off normally. I expect that no report was made to the TOC and the matter quickly forgotten about. Why is this so different to what WCRC are accused of in the ORR letter?I am not a regular rail passenger so would it be fair to say that such occurrences as described are quite common? It wasn't WCRC so it's OK?

I fully accept that improving safety is a good thing for all, but I have to chuckle sometimes when I think it was only 10-15 years ago that passengers were jumping on and off slam door trains as they were pulling out of and into stations. Just look at the footage of trains coming into Waterloo and Victoria etc in the morning rush hour and see half the train has alighted before the train has fully stopped.

 

[QueensCurve]

I guess you mean tpws rather than apt and yes those TWO incidents were a violation of the rules and should be dealt with in a appropriate safety management system, it does not mean all their drivers are doing it as some of the hang em brigade on here would like to think.

Again,management of route knowledge needs sorting but some of the drivers wcrc have have been driving some of their routes for decades and probably have far better route knowledge than a driver who has been driving for a year and full time employed by a regular TOC.

My fear is that if the improvement notice last year didn't shake the culture up enough, will the prohibition notice?

Yes, that should have been TPWS. I was thinking about the Southall collision while I wrote and still managed to confuse ATP with APT!

It seems that WCRC have not headed the lessons of earlier concerns, Wooten Basset or their earlier suspension. This really does seem extraordinary and indicative of a serious cultural failing.

Nobody has actually criticised the drivers' route knowledge, rather the lack of an adequate system for proving it is up to date.

 

[neilb62]

Again,management of route knowledge needs sorting but some of the drivers wcrc have have been driving some of their routes for decades and probably have far better route knowledge than a driver who has been driving for a year and full time employed by a regular TOC?

Quite likely so, but provide the paper trail to prove it. The days of 'Bobs been going there for years he'll be allright' have long gone and in my opinion rightly so.

Dot the I's and cross the T's and every one will be happy.

 

[theironroad]

Quite likely so, but provide the paper trail to prove it. The days of 'Bobs been going there for years he'll be allright' have long gone and in my opinion rightly so.

Dot the I's and cross the T's and every one will be happy.

Totally agree. The ORR don't seem to have an agenda of getting heritage off the mainline, but WCRC need to realise the modern railway is run on form filling and paperwork, increasingly digital record keeping.

Do that and have the top down safety culture and most people will be happy.

 

[HLE]

Again,management of route knowledge needs sorting but some of the drivers wcrc have have been driving some of their routes for decades and probably have far better route knowledge than a driver who has been driving for a year and full time employed by a regular TOC.

That last point.....reinforces my point about ego's. Along the lines of 'you can't tell me lad, I was driving over this route before you were born'.

So what? Yeah the route doesn't change, but track work, signalling, linespeed all do. Part of route knowledge.

So would you rather have a WCRC driver driving over a route that they used to drive over 'back in 'day', that they only drive over a handful of times a year, or a regular TOC driver who has been passed out a year and drives over said route all the time.

My post may be biased, partly due to the fact I hate egos.

 

[D1009]

WCR website still up and running and taking bookings for tour next week.

They haven't been banned from promoting tours, only from operating them. Whether they get anyone else to operate the tour to which you refer remains to be seen.

 

[Dave1987]

Again,management of route knowledge needs sorting but some of the drivers wcrc have have been driving some of their routes for decades and probably have far better route knowledge than a driver who has been driving for a year and full time employed by a regular TOC.

My fear is that if the improvement notice last year didn't shake the culture up enough, will the prohibition notice?

So you are saying a driver who has driven my route once or twice a year in the past decade would know the route better than me when I drive it around 10 times per week? That is complete and utter rubbish! Its not just about gradients. Speeds, stations, points, signals, vegetation, level crossings, local instructions, all change over the years.

The whole Wootten Bassett SPAD should have sent a clear message to all WCRC management and crews that violation of the rule book is not acceptable, it clearly didn't, and now the are banned. Good riddance!

 

[mpthomson]

So, you are saying that the people running this show are not competent in the areas they need to be?

I think what the ORR are getting at regarding the CEO and Chief Engineer posts is that the current company structure is unclear and it doesn't show where the accountability (personally, corporately and legally) lies if anything goes wrong.

Their point is that whoever takes up these roles must be someone who is appropriately qualified and experienced to do so, which effectively stops any re-arranging of deckchairs and job titles within the current senior management team ie the Chairman can't suddenly decide to make himself CEO as well.

It's quite possible (but unlikely on the face of it) that there are suitably qualified individuals in WCR's team already, but it's more the ORR ensuring that proper arrangements for accountability and governance being in place rather than any comment on the qualities of the senior management (although comments on the SMT quality may well be valid in this case), if that makes sense.

I'm a senior healthcare manager and most regulators throughout industry are very keen on properly structured management teams with clear lines of responsibility and accountability (as they should be).

 

[RPTC]

ORR raised concerns about the ability to keep drivers' route knowledge up to date. Also the repeated unauthorised isolation of AWS and TPWS [corrected from APT] calls into question the suitability of the drivers who did it.

It seems perhaps a little unfair to tar all their drivers with the same brush.

Have you read the full 9 page letter, with things like WCRC did not have up to date route maps, had no idea if its crews had the necessary knowledge etc? No one knows, not even WCRC, if its crews were up to scratch or had access to the required information to perform the tasks competently. However the repeated safety failings despite previous enforcement action point towards both crews and management not being up to scratch collectively. Bear in mind one of the Tangmere crew is facing prosecution under HASAWA in Crown Court.

Whilst not defending any of WCRC's misdemeanours, the following happened to me a few weeks ago: travelling on an EMU arrives at a wayside station, stops and doors open, passengers getting off and on, some elderly. As they do so the train starts to move forward, not under power, but seemed like no brakes applied, stopped again after rolling 2 or 3 metres. Nobody injured or complaining and doors closed and train went off normally. I expect that no report was made to the TOC and the matter quickly forgotten about. Why is this so different to what WCRC are accused of in the ORR letter?I am not a regular rail passenger so would it be fair to say that such occurrences as described are quite common? It wasn't WCRC so it's OK?

Safety culture is a critical element of safety in organisations. A TOC running a full schedule of trains on the network will have incidents, but also have the systems in place to limit and manage them in compliance with ORR and NR requirements and HASAWA, and they will ensure that the number and severity of those incidents is kept to a minimum. WCRC is treated exactly the same as everyone else. The only difference here is that WCRC, unlike many TOC's, does not have and appears unable to get a proper functioning SMS in place or meet the legal requirements for safe rail operations that others manage to do.

The only difference here is the behaviour of WCRC staff and management. If they don't like it they could always comply with the law or get out of running trains and stick to something they can manage to do competently and safely.

 

[Diplodicus]

Yes they deserve sanctions as they have previously failed to rectify serious operational and supervisory shortcomings. But ...

I wish that they are able to rectify matters and return to safe operations as soon as possible. The more [safe] steam specials, the better.

Isn't that what we all want?

 

[The Planner]

How many chances do you give them though?

 

[HLE]

How many chances do you give them though?

Speaking for myself, I think they've had enough.

I can't see it changing until the chairman/owner leave for good.

 

[infobleep]

Quite likely so, but provide the paper trail to prove it. The days of 'Bobs been going there for years he'll be allright' have long gone and in my opinion rightly so.

Dot the I's and cross the T's and every one will be happy.

Some argue that even sorting the Is and crossing the Ts isn't enough. I mean look at managers working trains during strike action. They have the correct paperwork to be there. Doesn't mean everyone else thinks it's safe for them to be there.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes they deserve sanctions as they have previously failed to rectify serious operational and supervisory shortcomings. But ...

I wish that they are able to rectify matters and return to safe operations as soon as possible. The more [safe] steam specials, the better.

Isn't that what we all want?

Haven't we been here before ?

How many times do you want to risk people being killed ?

I think it's time for them to be wound up unless fresh management can be installed.

 

[DaleCooper]

I wish that they are able to rectify matters and return to safe operations as soon as possible.

A return to safe operations requires that their operations have been safe in the past, the latest revelations cast some doubt on that assumption.

 

[CosherB]

http://railwayherald.com/uknews/flying-scotsman-charter-should-still-go-ahead

It looks like the NRM has been in discussions with DBS before yesterdays announcement ...

 

[Townsend Hook]

http://railwayherald.com/uknews/flying-scotsman-charter-should-still-go-ahead



It looks like the NRM has been in discussions with DBS before yesterdays announcement ...

It would seem likely that they were made aware of the possibility of a prohibition notice, in advance of the public announcement.

 

[Chris125]

http://railwayherald.com/uknews/flying-scotsman-charter-should-still-go-ahead

It looks like the NRM has been in discussions with DBS before yesterdays announcement ...

It was reported to be a DBS working weeks ago, a wise precaution.

 

[D1009]

Vintage Trains had also been made aware of the possibility of a revocation some weeks ago, and stopped taking bookings for some of their proposed trains.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That isn't entirely accurate. Everybody was aware of a possible revocation because the ORR stated it in December, however Vintage Trains stopped taking bookings after being contacted by WCRC, not the ORR.

 

[6Gman]

Whilst not defending any of WCRC's misdemeanours, the following happened to me a few weeks ago: travelling on an EMU arrives at a wayside station, stops and doors open, passengers getting off and on, some elderly. As they do so the train starts to move forward, not under power, but seemed like no brakes applied, stopped again after rolling 2 or 3 metres. Nobody injured or complaining and doors closed and train went off normally. I expect that no report was made to the TOC and the matter quickly forgotten about. Why is this so different to what WCRC are accused of in the ORR letter?I am not a regular rail passenger so would it be fair to say that such occurrences as described are quite common? It wasn't WCRC so it's OK?

I'm not a regular passenger, but probably make 100+ journeys a year. I have never encountered such an incident in recent years i.e. in the last 15-20 years.

 

[DaleCooper]

Whilst not defending any of WCRC's misdemeanours, the following happened to me a few weeks ago: travelling on an EMU arrives at a wayside station, stops and doors open, passengers getting off and on, some elderly. As they do so the train starts to move forward, not under power, but seemed like no brakes applied, stopped again after rolling 2 or 3 metres. Nobody injured or complaining and doors closed and train went off normally. I expect that no report was made to the TOC and the matter quickly forgotten about. Why is this so different to what WCRC are accused of in the ORR letter?I am not a regular rail passenger so would it be fair to say that such occurrences as described are quite common? It wasn't WCRC so it's OK?

How do you know it wasn't reported? How do you know that no action was taken? Your expectation means nothing.

 

[Train man]

Better if DBS can purchase the whole of WCRC. The locos can stay in maroon and have DB logo on second man's side of the diesels. My opinion

 

[paul1609]

I'm not a regular passenger, but probably make 100+ journeys a year. I have never encountered such an incident in recent years i.e. in the last 15-20 years.

Im not a regular passenger either but In the last 25 years Ive experienced 2 Spads across a junction and one instance where a passenger train was wrongly routed in to a train depot.

 

[DaleCooper]

Im not a regular passenger either but In the last 25 years Ive experienced 2 Spads across a junction and one instance where a passenger train was wrongly routed in to a train depot.

So what? TOCs probably run far more trains in an hour than WCRC do in a year, nobody denies these things happen but when they do lessons are learned.