WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[swt_passenger]

The Hastings unit has been fitted with CDL and waste tanks for the toilets. I think VEP 3417 is being fitted with CDL. There must be a reasonable expectation of being allowed out for several years, otherwise, why bother?

The pair of Mk1 3-CIGs used on the Lymington Branch between about 2005 and 2010 were also fitted with a CDL system. I suppose one key difference is they and VEP 3417 would already have a capable electrical system on board.

 

[Nym]

One does need to remember that a CDL system designed prior to the advent of CSM-RA safety management and all of this oversight would have a "Good enough" tick applied to it. Any system for WCRC following all these issues will need to cross every I and dot every T or it simply won't be signed off. No As-Bo or De-Bo would ever sign something off for them following this press without a tighter than air tight safety case behind it. Which I doubt there will be able to be.

 

[Bikeman78]

The pair of Mk1 3-CIGs used on the Lymington Branch between about 2005 and 2010 were also fitted with a CDL system. I suppose one key difference is they and VEP 3417 would already have a capable electrical system on board.

Yes good point. So a system exists, so long as a power supply can be sorted.

 

[Mountain Man]

Whats the motivation for a new exemption? That seems wishful thinking to expect after all the time, manhours and effort in the legal battle to then expect a willingness to create a new exemption. There might have been the goodwill for that previously, but you can't have your cake and eat it

 

[renegademaster]

The Hastings unit has been fitted with CDL and waste tanks for the toilets. I think VEP 3417 is being fitted with CDL. There must be a reasonable expectation of being allowed out for several years, otherwise, why bother?

The hastings unit was done a long time ago

 

[mike57]

What I struggle with is the fact that WCRC have known that CDL is coming, spent £s on legal challenges, lost income over the incident last year, and will still have to comply one way or another. There are costs associated with the work, and some technical work will be needed, but none of this is impossible, and they will either have 'find' the money or cease operations. If they had started this work back when the requirements first appeared they would now have compliant stock and the income lost and money spent on lawyers would still be in the business.

Am I missing something... As a business it just doesn't make sense.

 

[D6130]

Am I missing something... As a business it just doesn't make sense.

I think it has a lot to do with the character and personality of the company's owner to be honest! (Mods: Am I allowed to say that on here?)

 

[D365]

I think it has a lot to do with the character and personality of the company's owner to be honest! (Mods: Am I allowed to say that on here?)

It's not a secret.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it has a lot to do with the character and personality of the company's owner to be honest!

Certainly. Not politically perhaps, but in terms of being a strongly-willed individual who will do things for personal reasons rather than simple business sense he isn't entirely dissimilar to the likes of Tim Martin of Wetherspoons.

 

[snowball]

I think it has a lot to do with the character and personality of the company's owner to be honest! (Mods: Am I allowed to say that on here?)

I'm not a mod, and know nothing of the person in question, but you're not the first in this thread to say something similar.

 

[12LDA28C]

Certainly. Not politically perhaps, but in terms of being a strongly-willed individual who will do things for personal reasons rather than simple business sense he isn't entirely dissimilar to the likes of Tim Martin of Wetherspoons.

Interesting comparison. Will we be seeing Sir David Smith at some point in the future, knighted for services to cranks, bashers and spotters?

 

[Nym]

It's not a secret.

I still prefer him to his main competitor.

Controversial view...

Have Mk.1s had their time on the mainline and it's time to say goodbye to mainline operations...?

 

[D6130]

Have Mk.1s had their time on the mainline and it's time to say goodbye to mainline operations...?

You may well be right....sadly.

 

[12LDA28C]

You may well be right....sadly.

Still Mk1s in service with other charter operators so they haven't reached the end of the line just yet.

 

[paul1609]

Still Mk1s in service with other charter operators so they haven't reached the end of the line just yet.

I reckon for reasons that Ive stated up thread that in the near future the only ones left will be catering vehicles and possibly some brakes on the main 'Mainline' plus some NYMR etc on branch "Mainline"

 

[Nym]

I don't think that we will see a design under CSM-RA signed off by a NoBo or DeBo that approves CDL for Mk.1s, there's no way to have a 'type certification' for a design given the variances between Mk.1s, both by design and by aging.

The only way a Mk.1 will be able to operate now if not already CDL fitted (and even that is only until there's an accident that indicates the systems on them are not as good as we think), is with a robust door marshalling process.

(Oh, and MENTOR of course.).

 

[43096]

I don't think that we will see a design under CSM-RA signed off by a NoBo or DeBo that approves CDL for Mk.1s, there's no way to have a 'type certification' for a design given the variances between Mk.1s, both by design and by aging.

The only way a Mk.1 will be able to operate now if not already CDL fitted (and even that is only until there's an accident that indicates the systems on them are not as good as we think), is with a robust door marshalling process.

(Oh, and MENTOR of course.).

So how are the other Mark 1 owners doing it? They must have agreed fitment plans with ORR to have continued exemptions while they fit their stock.

 

[paul1609]

So how are the other Mark 1 owners doing it? They must have agreed fitment plans with ORR to have continued exemptions while they fit their stock.

Who are the other Mk1 owners doing it?

 

[43096]

Who are the other Mk1 owners doing it?

What stock do Vintage Trains and LSL have?

 

[Nym]

So how are the other Mark 1 owners doing it? They must have agreed fitment plans with ORR to have continued exemptions while they fit their stock.

"We won't see a new design"

 

[12LDA28C]

I reckon for reasons that Ive stated up thread that in the near future the only ones left will be catering vehicles and possibly some brakes on the main 'Mainline' plus some NYMR etc on branch "Mainline"

I disagree. If a charter operator has expended a great deal of time, effort and money improving the crashworthiness of their Mk1 stock as well as installing CDL and so on, clearly they are expecting their investment to be worthwhile which suggests Mark 1s will not be removed from the network any time soon.

Who are the other Mk1 owners doing it?

Vintage Trains still operate Mk1s on the main line as do LSL.

 

[172007]

Speculative I know but as we have seen new build historical locomotives in recent decades it's not impossible that a some new build MK1 esque with modern features including structural integrity may be built.

 

[paul1609]

I disagree. If a charter operator has expended a great deal of time, effort and money improving the crashworthiness of their Mk1 stock as well as installing CDL and so on, clearly they are expecting their investment to be worthwhile which suggests Mark 1s will not be removed from the network any time soon.



Vintage Trains still operate Mk1s on the main line as do LSL.

I believe that apart from catering vehicles Vintage trains fleet is Mk2. How many MK1s are LSL fitting with CDL?

 

[12LDA28C]

I believe that apart from catering vehicles Vintage trains fleet is Mk2. How many MK1s are LSL fitting with CDL?

This photo was taken 5 years ago and Vintage still had some non-catering Mk1s in traffic then, I don't know if that's still the case. LSL's Saphos rake of Mk1s is already CDL fitted.

 

[LowLevel]

I believe that apart from catering vehicles Vintage trains fleet is Mk2. How many MK1s are LSL fitting with CDL?

VTL operate a Mk1 BFK, a handful of Met Cam bodied Mk1 Pullman cars and a support coach, and other vehicles from time to time. Only their "tourist"/standard class vehicles are Mk2z, all of the first class/pullman class vehicles are Mk1 variants.

 

[paul1609]

This photo was taken 5 years ago and Vintage still had some non-catering Mk1s in traffic then, I don't know if that's still the case. LSL's Saphos rake of Mk1s is already CDL fitted.

View attachment 150981

see low levels post above, he is better qualified than me to comment.

 

[D365]

We had a Mk1 catering vehicle on our UK Railtours "The Last Chance" 08/04/2023

 

[Bertie the bus]

Speculative I know but as we have seen new build historical locomotives in recent decades it's not impossible that a some new build MK1 esque with modern features including structural integrity may be built.

It seems very unlikely. Groups might be able to raise a few hundred grand / millions to build a steam loco but there simply isn't the interest in carriages for them to raise any significant amount and there would never be a business case for them to fund it themselves just for railtours.

 

[paul1609]

VTL operate a Mk1 BFK, a handful of Met Cam bodied Mk1 Pullman cars and a support coach, and other vehicles from time to time. Only their "tourist"/standard class vehicles are Mk2z, all of the first class/pullman class vehicles are Mk1 variants.

Do Mk1 Pullmans have inward opening doors like "proper" Pullmans, we had one on loan once from a mainline operator but I cant remember?

 

[LowLevel]

Do Mk1 Pullmans have inward opening doors like "proper" Pullmans, we had one on loan once from a mainline operator but I cant remember?

They do indeed have inward opening doors.