WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[Tester]

This morning I got off an HST with inward opening manual doors (with central door locking).

Ok it was actually an XPT - the Australian equivalent - but it did cause me to wonder why we hadn't gone down that path.

 

[Brissle Girl]

This morning I got off an HST with inward opening manual doors (with central door locking).

Ok it was actually an XPT - the Australian equivalent - but it did cause me to wonder why we hadn't gone down that path.

I’ve done about 10 hours of travel in the last week or so in loco hauled trains with no doors and windows where the droplights fully open and are predominately in that position, rattling along at much faster speeds than the Jacobite reaches.

Admittedly it was in east asia, but it was a remarkable contrast from what we see in the U.K. now.

 

[renegademaster]

This morning I got off an HST with inward opening manual doors (with central door locking).

Ok it was actually an XPT - the Australian equivalent - but it did cause me to wonder why we hadn't gone down that path.

The main issue is that the guard cant see easily if the doors are shut before they go. Inward doors occasionally have shown up here but mainly on pullman carridges that would have stewards everywhere

 

[AdamWW]

The main issue is that the guard cant see easily if the doors are shut before they go. Inward doors occasionally have shown up here but mainly on pullman carridges that would have stewards everywhere

I suspect there's also a historical element to it, in the sense that an inward opening door into a compartment would be incredibly inconvenient.

Then again presumably trains elsewhere in Europe started out with compartments yet made the move to inward opening doors.

There are, I suppose, two ways to go. Outward opening doors that have to be shut before the train goes, but can easily be seen when open. Or, as in most of Europe, inward opening doors that if left open when the train moves either shut themselves, or just stay open where at least they don't foul the loading guage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This morning I got off an HST with inward opening manual doors (with central door locking).

Ok it was actually an XPT - the Australian equivalent - but it did cause me to wonder why we hadn't gone down that path.

Inward opening doors don't work with general UK passenger services because we allow standing and as such a crowd could prevent a door from opening, causing a safety or simple access issue. Pacer doors were sort of inward opening (bus style) and you got this all the time, normal inward opening would be worse. It might be an option for railtours, though.

Notably, TfL bus spec hasn't allowed inward opening rear doors for quite some time.

 

[AM9]

Inward opening doors don't work with general UK passenger services because we allow standing and as such a crowd could prevent a door from opening, causing a safety or simple access issue. Pacer doors were sort of inward opening (bus style) and you got this all the time, normal inward opening would be worse. It might be an option for railtours, though.

Notably, TfL bus spec hasn't allowed inward opening rear doors for quite some time.

Aren't outward opening doors the norm for spaces where they form part of an escape route, (see cinemas, hospitals, sports event buildings etc.)? In the event of an emergency, an inward opening door may be impossible to open because of a crush behind it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't outward opening doors the norm for spaces where they form part of an escape route, (see cinemas, hospitals, sports event buildings etc.)? In the event of an emergency, an inward opening door may be impossible to open because of a crush behind it.

That's another factor, yes.

 

[Grumpy]

I personally know people who do not work in / around the railway, nor have a particular interest in it, who called off their holiday to the Fort William area when the Jacobite was suspended last summer. I don’t think theres any real comparison with the normal Scotrail DMU service, other than it runs over the same route. People want to experience the steam train.

I know someone who had a B&B in the area. She told me the biggest draw in that part of the world wasn't the scenery, or the steam train (as such), but middle aged women wanting to travel on the Harry Potter train

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know someone who had a B&B in the area. She told me the biggest draw in that part of the world wasn't the scenery, or the steam train (as such), but middle aged women wanting to travel on the Harry Potter train

If that's the majority of it, any kettle on any rake of maroon coaches with fake wood stuck to the inside would tick the box, e.g. a set of Mk3s.

 

[Wolfie]

One new thing I understand is that WCRC's new ban is not due to anything that has come up since the judicial review but that the ORR had already made it clear that if they lost their judicial review the derogation would be withdrawn.

That may well be a function of legal advice based on the accumulation of evidence undertaken for the litigantion.

I'm guessing but if WCRC had shown the ORR had acted unlawfully and the exemption hadn't be granted WCRC may have been able to sue for lost earnings?

Unsurprisingly the courts have found not granting an exemption is both reasonable and lawful so the risk of ORR being sued has gone so they have gone ahead and withdrawn the exemption.

Had WCRC's case been successful could other companies which had complied/fitted the equipment have sued ORR for their costs in doing so?

 

[mike57]

If that's the majority of it, any kettle on any rake of maroon coaches with fake wood stuck to the inside would tick the box, e.g. a set of Mk3s.

Taking that to it logical conclusion you could even have a 'fake' steam train. The ultimate problem however is that the company obviously feel that they dont have to abide by the same rules as everyone else, and it wouldn't matter what rolling stock you used they could probably find something to lock heads with the ORR over.

One concern I do have, is this 'incident' and the fall out from it going to have a detrimental impact on the rest of the preservation movement?

 

[Killingworth]

I know someone who had a B&B in the area. She told me the biggest draw in that part of the world wasn't the scenery, or the steam train (as such), but middle aged women wanting to travel on the Harry Potter train

That may have been the clientele judged at one b&b but on our last trip we shared a table with a young couple who worked in London, both from overseas, using it one way to Mallaig as part of a tour of Scotland. Opposite were a young group who'd motored from Kyle of Lochalsh specifically to take the train as part of their holiday in Scotland. Lots of personal reasons can be found. For me it was nostalgia having first travelled the route in 1958.

There are clearly affinity groups booked where they could well be a lot of pensioners, rail enthusiasts, Harry Potter fans or just wanting to see scenery. It has managed to attract a very wide range of interests.

 

[renegademaster]

Taking that to it logical conclusion you could even have a 'fake' steam train. The ultimate problem however is that the company obviously feel that they dont have to abide by the same rules as everyone else, and it wouldn't matter what rolling stock you used they could probably find something to lock heads with the ORR over.

One concern I do have, is this 'incident' and the fall out from it going to have a detrimental impact on the rest of the preservation movement?

They went through the legal processes to try and get the law changed. They never ran illegally. Seems like lots of people are welcoming this decision less to do with a genuine concern over saftey but more of a desire to punish WCRC for being difficult

 

[30907]

They went through the legal processes to try and get the law changed.

The ruling, not the law - pedantically.

They never ran illegally.

They clearly didn't abide by what they had agreed.

 

[43096]

They never ran illegally.

Two prohibition orders last summer would suggest otherwise.

 

[craigybagel]

They went through the legal processes to try and get the law changed. They never ran illegally. Seems like lots of people are welcoming this decision less to do with a genuine concern over saftey but more of a desire to punish WCRC for being difficult

And for having a proven track record of not complying with the rules.

 

[renegademaster]

The ruling, not the law - pedantically.

The ruling forms part of case law

They clearly didn't abide by what they had agreed.

Their new tours are running about with mark 2s now, they are abiding with the law as it stands now

 

[D6130]

Their new tours are running about with mark 2s now, they are abiding with the law as it stands now

Are those mark 2s fitted with CDL....and - if so - how is it powered?

 

[Brissle Girl]

The ruling forms part of case law


Their new tours are running about with mark 2s now, they are abiding with the law as it stands now

They have no option. I doubt Network Rail would give them track access if they were not, and I doubt their insurers would allow them to either.

 

[renegademaster]

Are those mark 2s fitted with CDL....and - if so - how is it powered?

Presumably with a diesel locomotive on the back providing ETH, pathfinder said they using Mark 2 aircon stock and an air braked steam locomotive (Tangmere). We will find out excatly what setup they have on saturday

They have no option. I doubt Network Rail would give them track access if they were not, and I doubt their insurers would allow them to either.

Not saying they did. But its silly to suggest west coast are like criminals who don't care for law. They disagreed with an ORR decision,took them to court , was granted a stay while the case was being decided and lost , and are now abiding by the decision.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Presumably with a diesel locomotive on the back providing ETH, pathfinder said they using Mark 2 aircon stock and an air braked steam locomotive (Tangmere). We will find out excatly what setup they have on saturday

It will also be interesting to see what kind of loading they have. I suspect any residual steam enthusiasts will have been put off by the prospect of ‘coffins’ (i.e. sealed aircon stock without opening windows) but of course the mainline charter industry has already priced many of these off in the drive for predominantly dining charters with their higher revenue yield per seat.

 

[renegademaster]

It will also be interesting to see what kind of loading they have. I suspect any residual steam enthusiasts will have been put off by the prospect of ‘coffins’ (i.e. sealed aircon stock without opening windows) but of course the mainline charter industry has already priced many of these off in the drive for predominantly dining charters with their higher revenue yield per seat.

I imagine the vestibule areas will still have droplights. They can hang round in there. And since they cant open the door their wont be as many stewards.

 

[31160]

I imagine the vestibule areas will still have droplights. They can hang round in there. And since they cant open the door their wont be as many stewards.

In regards to working the air con on the coffins there is always a genny car In the rake so not to say there definitely has to be a 47/57 on the rake all the time, but of course that's not a guarantee that there won't be either, and standing in the vestibule isn't exactly encouraged because of the droplight not that means you can't stand there but you may be asked to move on

 

[12LDA28C]

In regards to working the air con on the coffins there is always a genny car In the rake so not to say there definitely has to be a 47/57 on the rake all the time, but of course that's not a guarantee that there won't be either, and standing in the vestibule isn't exactly encouraged because of the droplight not that means you can't stand there but you may be asked to move on

The air con on the Mk2s isn't always the best and frequently fails on some vehicles with portable fans being used on one tour I went on last year. People were standing in the vestibules with droplights open in an attempt to get some air flow going. Not ideal.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The air con on the Mk2s isn't always the best and frequently fails on some vehicles with portable fans being used on one tour I went on last year. People were standing in the vestibules with droplights open in an attempt to get some air flow going. Not ideal.

It’s a pity WCRC didn’t keep their mk2 PV stock in decent condition!

 

[renegademaster]

When i was on a UK Railtours train in the summer and the aircon failed someone managed to force the vestibule doors to stay open so the droplight wind blew in.

While on the other hand the vesitbule doors just fail randomly and during the winter so the whole car is freezing. The always highly effective steam heating will be something ill miss about the mark 1s

fake' steam train.

Theirs quite a few modern built ones about

 

[31160]

The air con on the Mk2s isn't always the best and frequently fails on some vehicles with portable fans being used on one tour I went on last year. People were standing in the vestibules with droplights open in an attempt to get some air flow going. Not ideal.

You are of course correct, I was on a chingfinder tour last June and the air con in our coach burst and now and then we all took turns to get a breather, however in February they might view that differently

 

[Bikeman78]

I imagine the vestibule areas will still have droplights. They can hang round in there. And since they cant open the door their wont be as many stewards.

From what I've been told, hanging around by the doors is not allowed. I haven't done a tour for years so I can't comment from first hand experience.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

From what I've been told, hanging around by the doors is not allowed. I haven't done a tour for years so I can't comment from first hand experience.

Yes - given the real risk is probably more from window-hanging than a door being opened on the move, creating a situation where air-con stock is used encouraging pax to stand near the sole opening window (ie the door) is probably counter productive when it comes to safety! I do think this whole situation could have been avoided by simply mandating window bars, as BR did in the early 90s.

 

[paul1609]

The air con on the Mk2s isn't always the best and frequently fails on some vehicles with portable fans being used on one tour I went on last year. People were standing in the vestibules with droplights open in an attempt to get some air flow going. Not ideal.

!960/70s air con was still primative and shutting it down for days at a time like charter stock does is about the worst thing you can do for it.
It was also designed to work on CFC refrigerants that have been replaced by modern gases which whilst more ecological sound arent a 100% replacement for the original spec. Keeping the kit running is also very maintenance heavy something that the rail industry in particular seems to struggel with, let alone charter operators.