WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[Bill57p9]

Two door related incidents on their trains in recent years will not have helped their case.

 

[snookertam]

I personally know people who do not work in / around the railway, nor have a particular interest in it, who called off their holiday to the Fort William area when the Jacobite was suspended last summer. I don’t think theres any real comparison with the normal Scotrail DMU service, other than it runs over the same route. People want to experience the steam train.

Maybe someone else could operate a steam train who is willing to take their safety responsibilities seriously as requested many times.

As an aside, Fort William is next to the highest mountain in Britain, is at the end of the west highland way and is home to the mountain biking World Cup, it by no means relies on the Jacobite for tourism.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Maybe someone else could operate a steam train who is willing to take their safety responsibilities seriously as requested many times.

As an aside, Fort William is next to the highest mountain in Britain, is at the end of the west highland way and is home to the mountain biking World Cup, it by no means relies on the Jacobite for tourism.

Mallaig, however, does substantially rely on it.

 

[snookertam]

Mallaig, however, does substantially rely on it.

Perhaps it might, but even then it’s not worth running roughshod over safety matters to keep it running.

 

[John Bishop]

Perhaps it might, but even then it’s not worth running roughshod over safety matters to keep it running.

Indeed. The Mallaig economy factor has no place in this argument. It’s about complying with regulations in order to provide a safe operation for the paying public.

 

[43096]

It lacks rigorous Benefit Cost Analysis.

Actually, you're incorrect. The fitment costs are very clearly below the value of preventing a fatality (DfT value of £2,017k in 2019). WCRC's £7m cost figure was summarily rejected by the court as they provided no evidence to substantiate it.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Actually, you're incorrect. The fitment costs are very clearly below the value of preventing a fatality (DfT value of £2,017k in 2019). WCRC's £7m cost figure was summarily rejected by the court as they provided no evidence to substantiate it.

Also, the cost is put at around 30k per carriage, so surely modifying the two(?) rakes of stock used for the Jacobite would only cost around half a million.

 

[Watershed]

Actually, you're incorrect. The fitment costs are very clearly below the value of preventing a fatality (DfT value of £2,017k in 2019). WCRC's £7m cost figure was summarily rejected by the court as they provided no evidence to substantiate it.

That calculation seems a bit suspect though. It is taking the value of preventing a fatality (VPF) and comparing that to the cost of fitment - but these are measuring different things over different timespans, so can't really be compared as raw data. The VPF is presented if it were guaranteed that a CDL or droplight-related fatality will occur on any given day of operations - that, of course, is not borne out by the statistics. There have been only a handful of such fatalities over the last few years, and none at all involving heritage trains.

It seems like the correct comparison would be the cost of fitment and maintenance of CDL, over the anticipated lifespan of the CDL equipment or coaches (whichever needs replacing first), versus the expected FWI during that same lifespan. That calculation would, it seems to me, come to a rather different conclusion.

Of course that's not to say that WCRC are in the right here. They have, as others have said, wasted a significant amount of money (probably into the six figures) on a legal challenge that seemed destined to lose - it's evident the High Court Judges were not impressed by their arguments.

 

[david1212]

The ORR gave WCRC reasonable notice of this then granted a further exemption. During this the terms of the exemption were found not being met when there was an inspection.
WCRC should either have implemented CDL on the stock they use or substituted it with compliant stock for the 2023 season.

While this case is specific to WCRC I see no reason why heritage operation can not still be treated differently due to the 25mph limit. The only special case I am aware of is the NYMR to Whitby. If not so already this can be restricted to 25mph. Also the only non-NYMR station call is the terminus at Whitby.

 

[43096]

There have been only a handful of such fatalities over the last few years, and none at all involving heritage trains.

The reason why there has been such a big reduction in fatalities is because of CDL fitment, both by BR in the 1990s on the InterCity Mark 2/3 fleets and the mass replacement of the slam-door fleets post privatisation.

 

[Dave S 56F]

So that would work at nearly £400,000+ approx for a full rake of 12 carriages also if W.C.R.C.went ahead just to do x1 rake or £800,000 for 2 rakes of their carriage fleet fitted with C.D.L.

 

[The_Van]

So that would work at nearly £400,000+ approx for a full rake of 12 carriages also if W.C.R.C.went ahead just to do x1 rake or £800,000 for 2 rakes of their carriage fleet fitted with C.D.L.

I wonder how much they have paid for 45110?

 

[Titfield]

This would likely kill off quite a lot of heritage line operators if it were to be implemented.

Why? This should be a sensible upgrade fitted to all carriages on a rolling basis over say 6 - 10 years. It is not as if the rail industry (including the heritage rail part) could not foresee this coming and therefore plan and act accordingly.

If there was a fatality on a heritage line caused by a passenger falling out of a train or being struck by an opening door then the consequences would be very swift and severe.

No sensible Director of a Heritage Railway would want the threat of a corporate manslaughter charge hanging over them.

 

[Dai Corner]

So that would work at nearly £400,000+ approx for a full rake of 12 carriages also if W.C.R.C.went ahead just to do x1 rake or £800,000 for 2 rakes of their carriage fleet fitted with C.D.L.

The judge considered that Jacobite passengers aren't particularly price-conscious and the work could be paid for through higher fares.

 

[Kingham West]

The reason we can not have a bigger and better railway, is that it too expensive to meet safety rules for one in a billion events , this madness is £2.1m per fatality , roads are about £60k per fatality.
The dice is loaded against rail ..and overall safety of the travelling public, there will always be risk , but when we are looking at risk , comparable to being struck by a meteorite , it’s getting Unrealistic .

 

[ainsworth74]

The reason we can not have a bigger and better railway, is that it too expensive to meet safety rules for one in a billion events , this madness is £2.1m per fatality , roads are about £60k per fatality.
The dice is loaded against rail ..and overall safety of the travelling public, there will always be risk , but when we are looking at risk , comparable to being struck by a meteorite , it’s getting Unrealistic .

But the mainline railway already has CDL? This judgement has no impact on it?

 

[Walter Whigham]

Two door related incidents on their trains in recent years will not have helped their case.

WCRC has been far from squeaky clean in the matter of safety - the Wootton Bassett SPAD early in 2015 followed in October of that year, when at Doncaster the TPWS was isolated by the fireman.

 

[Brissle Girl]

So that would work at nearly £400,000+ approx for a full rake of 12 carriages also if W.C.R.C.went ahead just to do x1 rake or £800,000 for 2 rakes of their carriage fleet fitted with C.D.L.

The Jacobite makes £1m profit a year according to the figures presented by WCRC, so the cost would be recouped in one season.

WCR claims that it would need to fit over 130 carriages, which appears surprisingly large to me. Clearly the Jacobite could operate with just a fraction of that, and even if there were two other full rakes fitted that would still only be around 50 - maybe a few more to allow for spares. They seem to have taken the highest possible figure to inflate the cost - realistically they would prioritise fitment according to use, and you would no doubt find quite a lot of stock could remain unfitted without a material impact on their day to day operations.

 

[Belfastmarty]

It’s a terrible decision, although the evidence did not help WCR. More expensive safety work for the rail industry , to prevent a 1in a billion risk, potentially driving passengers to road travel where risks are massively greater.
It lacks rigorous Benefit Cost Analysis.

From the pdf in post 1:

4.6.15. Operating instructions should ensure processes are in place to mitigate risks ALARP. We note that the Applicant has had two incidents relating to PTI and train dispatch in recent years, one before the application was made and one since. We consider that the fitment of CDL could have actively prevented these incidents occurring.

Clearly, the court perceives that the risk of further incidents occurring are there. And potentially the outcome of such an incident could be serious injury or death. Organisations playing fast and loose with others safety are likely to be on the receiving end of judgements such as todays.

 

[StephenHunter]

So WCR have to fit CDL now if they wish to continue operating charters? Is the Northern Belle CDL fitted?

Not sure, but the Hastings DEMU definitely is and the plan is to fit it to Gordon Petitt i.e. the 4VEP.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The Jacobite makes £1m profit a year according to the figures presented by WCRC, so the cost would be recouped in one season.

WCR claims that it would need to fit over 130 carriages, which appears surprisingly large to me. Clearly the Jacobite could operate with just a fraction of that, and even if there were two other full rakes fitted that would still only be around 50 - maybe a few more to allow for spares. They seem to have taken the highest possible figure to inflate the cost - realistically they would prioritise fitment according to use, and you would no doubt find quite a lot of stock could remain unfitted without a material impact on their day to day operations.

Is that 130 just the current runners or the extensive lines of 'long-term restoration projects' at the south end of Carnforth?

As a result of one of their previous misdemeanours weren't they required to appoint a high level executive with a proper responsibility for health and safety?

Mr William Smith was born in 1946, they did things differently then, perhaps he needs to catch up a bit. Thomas Richard Smith was born in 1977, which may be recent or ages ago depending upon the readers age!

 

[paul1609]

Why? This should be a sensible upgrade fitted to all carriages on a rolling basis over say 6 - 10 years. It is not as if the rail industry (including the heritage rail part) could not foresee this coming and therefore plan and act accordingly.

If there was a fatality on a heritage line caused by a passenger falling out of a train or being struck by an opening door then the consequences would be very swift and severe.

No sensible Director of a Heritage Railway would want the threat of a corporate manslaughter charge hanging over them.

I think the issue would be that for the mainline operation the charter operators have been operating on a derogation from existing legislation for many years.
This legislation doesnt apply to heritage railways along with a raft of other stuff. I think if the ORR were looking to introduce this ruling to heritage railways it would need new legilsation. New legislation would normally in the heritage world have been discussed via the ORR/HRA and a plan would have been drawn up to meet it.
Theres a lot of things that would need to be considered. At my railway (and others) we have considerable pre MK1 rolling stock, a lot of railways offer things like brake van rides etc. etc. I have no doubt that if we needed to we could fit CDL within our organisation but it might well mean we chose to reduce our fleet of historic vehicles as a consequence especially as the fitment would be an awful lot of one offs.
As a heritage railway guard who spends an awful lot of his time looking out windows entering and leaving platforms I cant really say Im awareof any incidents where the door has been opened before the train has come to the halt, in fact the issue is that a lot of passengers dont know now how to operate slam doors and will remain trapped in the train until the door is opened by staff.

 

[swt_passenger]

The reason we can not have a bigger and better railway, is that it too expensive to meet safety rules for one in a billion events , this madness is £2.1m per fatality , roads are about £60k per fatality.

I think you’re wrong here, I’m pretty sure that is the cost of an accidental death used by all government departments. It might be argued to be too high, but road schemes use similar figures.

Theres a DfT road safety overview here from 2019, it states a figure of £2 million for a death and £228 thousand for serious injury.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/612de60e8fa8f53dc88ae9c7/Road_Safety_Performance_-_Update.PDF

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps it might, but even then it’s not worth running roughshod over safety matters to keep it running.

I think you’re wrong here, I’m pretty sure that is the cost of an accidental death used by all government departments. It might be argued to be too high, but road schemes use similar figures.

Theres a DfT road safety overview here from 2019, it states a figure of £2 million for a death and £228 thousand for serious injury.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/612de60e8fa8f53dc88ae9c7/Road_Safety_Performance_-_Update.PDF

Yet the strategic road network gets away with 270 deaths a year.

The authorities really ought to be focussing their efforts elsewhere from WCR's doors.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think the issue would be that for the mainline operation the charter operators have been operating on a derogation from existing legislation for many years.
This legislation doesnt apply to heritage railways along with a raft of other stuff. I think if the ORR were looking to introduce this ruling to heritage railways it would need new legilsation. New legislation would normally in the heritage world have been discussed via the ORR/HRA and a plan would have been drawn up to meet it.
Theres a lot of things that would need to be considered. At my railway (and others) we have considerable pre MK1 rolling stock, a lot of railways offer things like brake van rides etc. etc. I have no doubt that if we needed to we could fit CDL within our organisation but it might well mean we chose to reduce our fleet of historic vehicles as a consequence especially as the fitment would be an awful lot of one offs.
As a heritage railway guard who spends an awful lot of his time looking out windows entering and leaving platforms I cant really say Im awareof any incidents where the door has been opened before the train has come to the halt, in fact the issue is that a lot of passengers dont know now how to operate slam doors and will remain trapped in the train until the door is opened by staff.

I look at the Severn Valley Railway - the time, effort and difficulty they are having fitting slam-locks to their historic GWR coaches, which 5 years ago would have been considered a part of their core fleet (except the ‘Toplights’ which have only seen special occasional use for quite some time.) It’s been over 12 months and they’re just getting to the stage of being able to assemble a 6-coach set, out of a fleet of about 25 vehicles.

I imagine the combined additional challenges of
- designing a Central locking system that works with re-engineered door handles
- which also functions in a vacuum-braked set (noting that GWR, LMS, LNER and BR vehicles all have slightly different operating characteristics
- installing said system across the fleet, some vehicles having upward of 10 doors

It just would not happen. These vehicles still exist mainly because they combine historical importance with practical functionality, a CDL requirement would essentially end their ability to carry passengers. What museum is gong to be able to display 20+ GWR coaches?

 

[DarloRich]

This would, of course, result in most Heritage Railway operations closing down. Which is probably what the ORR (and Government) want.

ORR are still against sensible third rail extensions, so are not entirely trustworthy IMO unfortunately.

It’s a terrible decision, although the evidence did not help WCR. More expensive safety work for the rail industry , to prevent a 1in a billion risk, potentially driving passengers to road travel where risks are massively greater.
It lacks rigorous Benefit Cost Analysis.

The reason we can not have a bigger and better railway, is that it too expensive to meet safety rules for one in a billion events , this madness is £2.1m per fatality , roads are about £60k per fatality.
The dice is loaded against rail ..and overall safety of the travelling public, there will always be risk , but when we are looking at risk , comparable to being struck by a meteorite , it’s getting Unrealistic .

Could you show your workings to support these statements?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not sure, but the Hastings DEMU definitely is and the plan is to fit it to Gordon Petitt i.e. the 4VEP.

The DMMU working the Swanage service from Wareham had CDL although they had economised by welding up some doors.

 

[paul1609]

I look at the Severn Valley Railway - the time, effort and difficulty they are having fitting slam-locks to their historic GWR coaches, which 5 years ago would have been considered a part of their core fleet (except the ‘Toplights’ which have only seen special occasional use for quite some time.) It’s been over 12 months and they’re just getting to the stage of being able to assemble a 6-coach set, out of a fleet of about 25 vehicles.

I imagine the combined additional challenges of
- designing a Central locking system that works with re-engineered door handles
- which also functions in a vacuum-braked set (noting that GWR, LMS, LNER and BR vehicles all have slightly different operating characteristics
- installing said system across the fleet, some vehicles having upward of 10 doors

It just would not happen. These vehicles still exist mainly because they combine historical importance with practical functionality, a CDL requirement would essentially end their ability to carry passengers. What museum is gong to be able to display 20+ GWR coaches?

I agree, its what I was hinting at in my post. For us Id guess wed concentrate on the Mk1, Pullman and Bulleid Corridor Stock. I guess any non corridor stock would have a very bleak future. Railways like the IOWSR would be very hard hit. not sure how you would apply it to narrow gauge etc. etc.

 

[yorksrob]

Could you show your workings to support these statements?

Here:

ORR’s Policy on Third Rail DC Electrification Systems | Office of Rail and Road

www.orr.gov.uk

"1. ORR considers that the weight of safety evidence creates a presumption against
new-build or extended third rail being reasonably practicable. A duty holder will
therefore need to demonstrate, to ORR’s satisfaction, that any proposed new-build or
extended third rail proposal complies with the applicable legislation and be able to
explain how and why it rebuts this presumption.
2. Infrastructure managers have a range of duties under health and safety law to design "

Wrong.

Their presumption is wrong, their suggestions are wrong and they are wrong.

Moderator note: discussion regarding whether 3rd rail should be either removed or expanded has been moved to the following thread:

Third rail is old fashioned and should be done away with

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wcrc-loses-judicial-review-in-high-court.259817 Their presumption is wrong, their suggestions are wrong and they are wrong I knew it would be this. Third rail is old fashioned and should be done away with. This is not 1927.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Ianigsy]

The judge considered that Jacobite passengers aren't particularly price-conscious and the work could be paid for through higher fares.

Given that the Jacobite was fully booked for the season (or so near that West Coast weren’t able to offer alternative dates) , I’d be inclined to agree.