WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[ainsworth74]

Arent the SRPS set of coaches just out of use? I dont think theyve run a railtour since March last year and currently have none planned.

No idea! But if they're not running them the ORR really won't care

 

[paul1609]

No idea! But if they're not running them the ORR really won't care

I think that they were trying to find someone to help them out with the cost of the fitment around 2019 including Transport Scotland but that didnt materialise.
Im not sure they ran them right up to when their derogation expired or whether there were other maintenance issues but I think they are no longer mainline registered and withdrawn for overhaul. So its not really correct to say that all other operators have made progress. I think a lot of the charter stock will actually be withdrawn.

 

[Belperpete]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...compared-to-non-slam-door.98989/#post-1760187
Post #19 quotes annual figures of around 20 deaths and 1000+ injuries for the slam-door era.

As a trainee, I spent a week in one of the Southern Region control offices in the 70s. They were dealing with at least one serious injury per day due to people misusing slam doors. The worst case that week was when someone opened an offside door which got caught by a train.passing on the adjacent line, which ripped it off, and it then got spun around between the two trains, merrily ripping off door handles and sending them flying through windows. Multiple injuries, including one person blinded in one eye by the flying glass. As far as the control office staff were concerned, CDL couldn't come quick enough.

 

[Bill57p9]

Technically-speaking I don’t think there are any actual rules stating that you can’t run a train with the droplight windows open? Only that people are not permitted to lean out of them.

I believe so too, however on a recent rail tour we were briefed (many times) that the drop lights were to remain fully closed whilst the train was in motion. Also I understand that the Night Riviera has droplight locks.

Presumably even if there isn't a regulation to keep them closed, nothing can protrude if they stay shut and therefore it is an obvious control measure.

 

[800001]

Taken from twitter, WCR have suspended the start of the Jacobite season.

https://x.com/rlyherald/status/1770466513364955243?s=46&t=JLp3J2Up_Gl_m9cQz-au6w

On 8th March, the company applied for a new Regulation 5 exemption that would allow it to run non-CDL fitted rolling stock on passenger trains on the National Network, however such applications can take up to four months to approve. WCRC confirmed to Railway Herald that it has requested an interim exemption to allow Jacobite services to commence on 28th March as planned. However, an ORR spokesperson told Railway Herald that it was "assessing an application made by West Coast Railways on 8th March" and that a decision would be made in due course.



As the ORR has not yet granted an exemption, West Coast Railway Company said it had no choice but to suspended The Jacobite service until further notice. James Shuttleworth, Commercial Manager, WCR, said: “The Jacobite service is enjoyed by thousands of customers every year. It boosts the local economies of Mallaig and Fort William and brings an estimated £20 million into the UK’s tourism sector. If the ORR does not grant us a further exemption, we believe this could lead to up to £50 million in lost value to both local and national communities.”

Passengers with bookings for the Jacobite will be offered a full refund.

 

[craigybagel]

As the ORR has not yet granted an exemption, West Coast Railway Company said it had no choice but to suspended The Jacobite service until further notice. James Shuttleworth, Commercial Manager, WCR, said: “The Jacobite service is enjoyed by thousands of customers every year. It boosts the local economies of Mallaig and Fort William and brings an estimated £20 million into the UK’s tourism sector. If we can't get our own house in order and comply with the rules followed by every other operator in time, we believe this could lead to up to £50 million in lost value to both local and national communities.”

I fixed their press release for them.

 

[Wolfie]

Taken from twitter, WCR have suspended the start of the Jacobite season.

https://x.com/rlyherald/status/1770466513364955243?s=46&t=JLp3J2Up_Gl_m9cQz-au6w

On 8th March, the company applied for a new Regulation 5 exemption that would allow it to run non-CDL fitted rolling stock on passenger trains on the National Network, however such applications can take up to four months to approve. WCRC confirmed to Railway Herald that it has requested an interim exemption to allow Jacobite services to commence on 28th March as planned. However, an ORR spokesperson told Railway Herald that it was "assessing an application made by West Coast Railways on 8th March" and that a decision would be made in due course.



As the ORR has not yet granted an exemption, West Coast Railway Company said it had no choice but to suspended The Jacobite service until further notice. James Shuttleworth, Commercial Manager, WCR, said: “The Jacobite service is enjoyed by thousands of customers every year. It boosts the local economies of Mallaig and Fort William and brings an estimated £20 million into the UK’s tourism sector. If the ORR does not grant us a further exemption, we believe this could lead to up to £50 million in lost value to both local and national communities.”

Passengers with bookings for the Jacobite will be offered a full refund.

Wah wah we can't have our own way. It's not fair.

Comply with the rules or don't operate - simples!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wah wah we can't have our own way. It's not fair.

Comply with the rules or don't operate - simples!

Quite. I have no sympathy for them at all - they have conducted themselves appallingly and need to buck their ideas up and, as required, come up with a plan for either CDL fitment or replacing the stock with CDL fitted stock.

 

[12LDA28C]

I fixed their press release for them.

Surely a more appropriate and deferential press release might mention the fact that they have put in place plans for a program of CDL fitment in accordance with the ORR's requirements and on that basis they believe they should be eligible for a further exemption in line with other charter operators? Rather than drone on about how important the Jacobite is, and apparently by association how important WCRC are to the local economy?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely a more appropriate and deferential press release might mention the fact that they have put in place plans for a program of CDL fitment in accordance with the ORR's requirements and on that basis they believe they should be eligible for a further exemption in line with other charter operators? Rather than drone on about how important the Jacobite is, and apparently by association how important WCRC are to the local economy?

Have they put in place such plans (and are they viable?) or are they just pushing their luck again?

 

[Wolfie]

Have they put in place such plans (and are they viable?) or are they just pushing their luck again?

That is the key question. Based on their track record thus far who'd bet against the latter?

 

[craigybagel]

Have they put in place such plans (and are they viable?) or are they just pushing their luck again?

That is the key question. Based on their track record thus far who'd bet against the latter?

Exactly. We are long past the point of being able to give them the benefit of the doubt. Their past record has been appalling - if things really have changed and they've decided to make the effort to comply, good for them, but it would be nice to see some proof. This looks like they're already setting things up to blame ORR for the inevitable Jacobite cancellations.

 

[12LDA28C]

Have they put in place such plans (and are they viable?) or are they just pushing their luck again?

Well indeed. One would assume so, otherwise the chance of an application for a further exemption being successful would appear to be zero.

 

[Killingworth]

Well indeed. One would assume so, otherwise the chance of an application for a further exemption being successful would appear to be zero.

Assuming is an assumption many are clearly not making! It would be good to get specific clarification on this vital point.

 

[Dai Corner]

I wonder why they waited until 8 March to apply for the exemption when the outcome of the judicial review was known months ago?

 

[Wolfie]

I wonder why they waited until 8 March to apply for the exemption when the outcome of the judicial review was known months ago?

If l was being cynical l would say that they may well have been hoping for support from political and economic stakeholders for another exemption having done absolutely nothing themselves.

 

[jupiter]

They have no choice…

Well they could choose to fit CDL?

 

[Brissle Girl]

I have a great deal of sympathy for those customers, who have booked tickets and travel plans, with no idea that there was a very high likelihood of the service not running. I suspect the T&Cs make it clear that no consequential losses can be entertained in case of the service not running, but I'd really question that when, at the time of taking the booking, they did not have the necessary regulatory approvals to run the service.

 

[cf111]

I don't think that the operator's attitude and culture, so much as that can be judged with what is in the public domain, is helping. I don't think what the ORR is asking for is unreasonable, and it's not like inspectors appeared at Fort William one morning completely unannounced and decided to shut the operation down until they were satisfied the trains were safe. This has been going on for some time now, one can't help but think that working with the ORR instead of being unduly "bullish" would have meant the train running as scheduled.

I do feel very sorry for those who were looking forward to their journey.

 

[Iskra]

I have a great deal of sympathy for those customers, who have booked tickets and travel plans, with no idea that there was a very high likelihood of the service not running. I suspect the T&Cs make it clear that no consequential losses can be entertained in case of the service not running, but I'd really question that when, at the time of taking the booking, they did not have the necessary regulatory approvals to run the service.

There is still the Scotrail service train as a back up, which is cheaper and allows more time in Mallaig. Anyone who doesn’t wish to do the journey has a spare day in a beautiful place. It’s not the end of the world.

I do think WCRC shouldn’t be advertising things that probably won’t run (not just the Jacobite), but doing that probably helps their cash flow…

 

[twpsaesneg]

I wasn't advocating that safety standards should be completely lax but rather that they don't need to go as far as mollycoddling the populus and wrapping them up in cotton wool.

So a  bit of laxness is ok then, and you're OK with some major injuries rather than actual death?

It's not mollycoddling people, it's providing an expected standard of safety on a public transport system. WCRC had an exemption to the rules based on what was a pragmatic arrangement. They then chose to not even implement the arrangement they agreed to and have been correctly called out on it.

 

[Mountain Man]

That press release has the chance to completely backfire.

By stating such large numbers they have basically created a big advert for someone to come and run a replacement.

They have no USP, they are simply the incumbent.

The time has come for an alternative operator of a steam service on the line. It solves both issues, tourists and economic needs are met, and safety concerns addressed.

 

[craigybagel]

BBC are reporting on the story here . It also includes an interesting rebuttal from the ORR

"West Coast Railway's application for an exemption failed and they made a claim for judicial review. A temporary exemption was granted in order to maintain the status quo, enabling WCR to operate whilst the litigation reached a conclusion," they said.

“Despite this, WCR chose to sell tickets when it was far from certain that a new application for an exemption would be granted, either in time for the commencement of services or at all.

"It submitted an exemption application on 8 March, which we are now assessing. ORR is disappointed that WCR appears not to have made sensible contingency plans for the benefit of their customers.”

 

[Bill57p9]

I have a great deal of sympathy for those customers, who have booked tickets and travel plans, with no idea that there was a very high likelihood of the service not running. I suspect the T&Cs make it clear that no consequential losses can be entertained in case of the service not running, but I'd really question that when, at the time of taking the booking, they did not have the necessary regulatory approvals to run the service.

At least WCRC aren't blaming "Unforeseeable circumstances" this year....

 

[Killingworth]

There is still the Scotrail service train as a back up, which is cheaper and allows more time in Mallaig. Anyone who doesn’t wish to do the journey has a spare day in a beautiful place. It’s not the end of the world.

I do think WCRC shouldn’t be advertising things that probably won’t run (not just the Jacobite), but doing that probably helps their cash flow…

Perhaps Scotrail have contingency plans to run longer or extra trains between Fort William and Mallaig? In their shoes I would.

 

[Iskra]

Perhaps Scotrail have contingency plans to run longer or extra trains between Fort William and Mallaig? In their shoes I would.

Yes, I agree; an opportunity for them too. It will be interesting to watch future developments on this line.

Is anyone aware of what tangible steps WCRC are taking to get compliant rakes onto the network?

 

[Jan Mayen]

On theory, could someone pick up the now abandoned paths and run a train whilst The Jacobite is suspended?

 

[Iskra]

On theory, could someone pick up the now abandoned paths and run a train whilst The Jacobite is suspended?

I don't think so, as the paths belong to WCRC and they are hardly going to let a competitor use those paths.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I don't think so, as the paths belong to WCRC and they are hardly going to let a competitor use those paths.

Do they still have to pay for them?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Do they still have to pay for them?

I don't think so, as the paths belong to WCRC and they are hardly going to let a competitor use those paths.

If LTP paths are cancelled then there is nothing preventing another operator stepping in and submitting bids for STP services in the same slots on individual dates.