WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[Bletchleyite]

Here on the Isle of Man the government-run railway has slam-door stock without CDL. The nod to modern safety standards is a sign that reminds people that if they stick their head out of the door or open the door when moving then it might hurt a bit.

The Steam Railway? That's more of a preserved line, and those aren't required to have CDL in the UK either.

 

[mike57]

My take:

WCRC have known about the requirement for CDL for a long time, and have made no attempt to comply. They had an exemption, but got caught not sticking to the terms of it, hence the earlier suspension. They have spent a lot of money and time fighting this, which they could, and should, have spent on sorting the problem. CDL will happen. WCRC are now trying to place the blame for loss of tourist revenue on others. None of this makes business sense. One must therefore come to the conclusion that WCRC are not interested in continuing to run the service.

In any industry there are regulators and they set requirements, you may not agree with them but thats the framework you are operating in and there has been plenty of time for compliance. There are various compliant solutions that are possible, modify existing Mk1 stock, bring new stock in, etc. Obviously any sensible business would go for the most cost effective solution.

So is it time for someone else to take over what appears to be profitable and popular service, and how can that be brought about.

 

[BlueLeanie]

It's time for some new build retro style compartment stock for this service.

During this season of "The Traitors" we were shouting at the Telly. "That's the Strathspey Railway", nowhere near Glenfinnan.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well theres a shedload of MK5 with increasingly little work to do, wouldn't be difficult I shouldn't think to strip the current interior and fit compartments

 

[D6130]

Well theres a shedload of MK5 with increasingly little work to do, wouldn't be difficult I shouldn't think to strip the current interior and fit compartments

Unfortunately I don't think that there are any steam locos that would be capable of operating their electronic train management systems!

 

[D365]

It’s long been obvious that the ORR simply don’t want charter trains on the main line network. Looks like they’re inching ever closer to achieving their aim.

Regardless of your views. A number of contributions in the previous 20 pages have suggested that WCRC has had plenty (i.e. years) of advance warning…

 

[357]

Unfortunately I don't think that there are any steam locos that would be capable of operating their electronic train management systems!

If the money is there, then anything is possible

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

GB News now WCRC boss on!

 

[DarloRich]

GB News now WCRC boss on!

A surprise it took so long.

 

[james_the_xv]

I have to admit that I find the whole thing utterly bizarre, and I’m sure the previous 20 pages have differing views on this.

Here on the Isle of Man the government-run railway has slam-door stock without CDL. The nod to modern safety standards is a sign that reminds people that if they stick their head out of the door or open the door when moving then it might hurt a bit.

It’s long been obvious that the ORR simply don’t want charter trains on the main line network. Looks like they’re inching ever closer to achieving their aim.

Give your head a wobble... WCRC have had years of notice to fit CDL. It is unsafe and not fit for mainline operation. We are becoming an increasingly litigious society (taking after the US) and this, among other reasons, drives these decisions from the ORR/wider railway. The fact that WCRC have F***ed around and found out is their fault and their fault alone. Someone call Hosking...

 

[renegademaster]

Given SRPS trouble in getting their units fitted , it may have been WCRC only economical choice to "**** Around ", unfortunately due to the decision we may be "finding out" some mark 1 sets getting turnt into tincans. I don't really understand why west coast has became such a pantomime villain to this board.

 

[craigybagel]

GB News now WCRC boss on!

Sounds like a marriage made in heaven.

Given SRPS trouble in getting their units fitted , it may have been WCRC only economical choice to "**** Around ", unfortunately due to the decision we may be "finding out" some mark 1 sets getting turnt into tincans. I don't really understand why west coast has became such a pantomime villain to this board.

Because on numerous occasions they've acted like actual villains in the real world?

Any business that can only stay afloat by ignoring the rules doesn't deserve to remain in business - especially when their competitors have managed to follow those same rules.

 

[renegademaster]

Sounds like a marriage made in heaven.

Because on numerous occasions they've acted like actual villains in the real world?

Any business that can only stay afloat by ignoring the rules doesn't deserve to remain in business - especially when their competitors have managed to follow those same rules.

Ultimately when push come to shove they follow the rules (Hence why the jacobite is gone and English tours are using mark 2s now)but have been using the legal process to drag out the time when they have to.
Not much different from what TFL are doing with the Bakerloo line.


If unlocked doors aren't an acceptable risk anymore , mark 1s aren't going to be either on crash safety, one derailment and the impact of door incidents will look miniscule, to think it won't be the thin end of the wedge is a little optimistic

 

[craigybagel]

Ultimately when push come to shove they follow the rules (Hence why the jacobite is gone and English tours are using mark 2s now)but have been using the legal process to drag out the time when they have to.
Not much different from what TFL are doing with the Bakerloo line.

Except for all of the times they've been found to have been breaking the rules. They've been banned from the entire network twice. More pertinent to this discussion, they were also found to be in breach of the terms of the dispensation that was agreed so they could continue to run slam door trains without CDL.

If unlocked doors aren't an acceptable risk anymore , mark 1s aren't going to be either on crash safety, one derailment and the impact of door incidents will look miniscule, to think it won't be the thin end of the wedge is a little optimistic

Getting off topic here, but personally I'm not convinced MKIs should be out on the mainline, and a ban on their use on railtours might not be such a bad thing.

 

[Mountain Man]

It’s long been obvious that the ORR simply don’t want charter trains on the main line network. Looks like they’re inching ever closer to achieving their aim.

What evidence do you have to back up that claim?

 

[JJmoogle]

I have to admit that I find the whole thing utterly bizarre, and I’m sure the previous 20 pages have differing views on this.

Here on the Isle of Man the government-run railway has slam-door stock without CDL. The nod to modern safety standards is a sign that reminds people that if they stick their head out of the door or open the door when moving then it might hurt a bit.

It’s long been obvious that the ORR simply don’t want charter trains on the main line network. Looks like they’re inching ever closer to achieving their aim.

The IoM railways run at about 20mph maximum and don't run in mixed traffic on a modern mainline, it's perfectly fine to have such stock on similar railways(like all the heritage ones, the festiniog etc) here too.

We see lots of charter trains on the mainline network here so I don't think it's 'obvious' at all, WCRC simply refuse to abide by rules and timelines set for them and pay the price for it.

 

[zwk500]

I don't really understand why west coast has became such a pantomime villain to this board.

Because WCRC are often Charter trains' worst enemy. They are a large player in the market and their safety record gives the operation of heritage a bad name to the safety regulator.

If unlocked doors aren't an acceptable risk anymore , mark 1s aren't going to be either on crash safety, one derailment and the impact of door incidents will look miniscule, to think it won't be the thin end of the wedge is a little optimistic

Mk1s need to have corner strengthening and anti-telescoping modifications before being mainline certified, so the crash worthiness part has already been covered. The idea that the ORR is on a crusade against charter trains is rather far from the mark, the reason it has been getting increasingly stringent is that Charter Operators (primarily WCRC) have failed to implement agreed procedures properly, so the ORR is now moving towards safety systems that are harder for individuals to override.
Again, WCRC have made this rod for themselves by having numerous incidents with doors that caused the ORR to not extend their exemption.

 

[Brush 4]

This isn't really about WCRC as a whole but about one person within. He has form going back to the days of old camera film. Magazines published a photo of him waving a Hi-viz vest from his 8F, so as to spoil linesiders photographs. That particular trick is now redundant in the digital age, as the vest and indeed himself can be edited out.

Later, I recall reports in 2000, of a turntable proposed by the West Coast Rail Heritage Trust for Mallaig, as the one at FW was of less use on its own, as steam locos would still need to run tender first one way. He said he would refuse to use it for reasons lost in time. It was acquired but never installed.
I would think there are WCRC staff who dislike this unnecessary state of affairs, perhaps there may be stirrings within.....

 

[Tetchytyke]

The IoM railways run at about 20mph maximum and don't run in mixed traffic on a modern mainline

It’s about 25mph, same as on heritage railways where CDL also doesn’t apply.

The Jacobite takes roughly two hours to do the 50 miles or so from Fort William to Mallaig.

I’ll be honest, I’m not really seeing the difference here.

I’d agree that WCRC have been daft if they have spent more on legal fees than they would have done in fitting CDL.

WCRC took court action and lost and then the ORR pretty much immediately thereafter revoked their exemption two months early. Maybe I’m getting cynical in my old age, but that looks very much like a retaliation by the ORR to me.

In fairness I also have misgivings about WCRC more generally. Although if the ORR’s real issue is WCRC they should come out and take regulatory action properly, rather than this snide attempt to put WCRC out of business by the back door.

 

[renegademaster]

It’s about 25mph, same as on heritage railways where CDL also doesn’t apply.

The Jacobite takes roughly two hours to do the 50 miles or so from Fort William to Mallaig.

I’ll be honest, I’m not really seeing the difference here.

I’d agree that WCRC have been daft if they have spent more on legal fees than they would have done in fitting CDL.

WCRC took court action and lost and then the ORR pretty much immediately thereafter revoked their exemption two months early. Maybe I’m getting cynical in my old age, but that looks very much like a retaliation by the ORR to me.

It may be possible for WCRC to get an exemption specifcally for the Jacobite depending on the mood of the ORR, as NYMR runs over Network Rail in Whitby and has an agreement that they dont need CDL in exchange for a 25mph speed limit.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It may be possible for WCRC to get an exemption specifcally for the Jacobite depending on the mood of the ORR

The bit I’ve bolded is the really
relevant bit. As I’ve just added to my previous post, this all feels quite personal to me. The ORR wouldn’t be the first regulator to try and tie a specific company they deem unwelcome up in knots, as it’s often an easier alternative to trying to revoke their licence.

 

[craigybagel]

It’s about 25mph, same as on heritage railways where CDL also doesn’t apply.

The Jacobite takes roughly two hours to do the 50 miles or so from Fort William to Mallaig.

I don't have the timings to hand, but if that's true it would imply an average of 25mph - meaning a top speed in excess of that given the time spent at stations and RETB blocks. In any case, whilst the Jacobite is the most high profile victim of all of this, it's all across WCRC the ban applies - and their mainline charters used to run at up to 100mph.

I’ll be honest, I’m not really seeing the difference here.

I’d agree that WCRC have been daft if they have spent more on legal fees than they would have done in fitting CDL.

WCRC took court action and lost and then the ORR pretty much immediately thereafter revoked their exemption two months early. Maybe I’m getting cynical in my old age, but that looks very much like a retaliation by the ORR to me.

WCRC broke the terms of their exemption. It was also only meant to be a temporary exemption whilst WCRC put a plan in place to modify their fleet - something they failed to do.

In fairness I also have misgivings about WCRC more generally. Although if the ORR’s real issue is WCRC they should come out and take regulatory action properly, rather than this snide attempt to put WCRC out of business by the back door.

With WCRC's record, if ORR were really after them they could have given them a permanent ban years ago. If anything they've shown a massive degree of patience and leniency up until now.

 

[paul1609]

It may be possible for WCRC to get an exemption specifcally for the Jacobite depending on the mood of the ORR, as NYMR runs over Network Rail in Whitby and has an agreement that they dont need CDL in exchange for a 25mph speed limit.

Ive no idea about the running arrangements on the WHL but I understand that the line limit is 45mph with trains passing each other in the passing loops and in the Fort William area. I think the Whitby case would be lower risk because the operations involve just a single train in the Grosmont to Whitby Area. The only place that a train can pass is in Whitby station itself where there is a loco release road in between. The Grosmont to Whitby section is a single line on a double line formation so the proximity to any infrastructure may be increased. Id suggest the risk isnt just related to the speed of the affected vehicle.

 

[zwk500]

The bit I’ve bolded is the really
relevant bit. As I’ve just added to my previous post, this all feels quite personal to me. The ORR wouldn’t be the first regulator to try and tie a specific company they deem unwelcome up in knots, as it’s often an easier alternative to trying to revoke their licence.

The ORR could have killed WCRC after the Wootton Bassett incident. In fact the ORR are incredibly patient with WCRC's attitude and practices on safety. The ORR gave the charter market years to get their ducks in a row, and everybody else has done so, without fuss. The CDL systems available for retrofit are widely available and proven in practice.

 

[Wolfie]

It’s about 25mph, same as on heritage railways where CDL also doesn’t apply.

The Jacobite takes roughly two hours to do the 50 miles or so from Fort William to Mallaig.

I’ll be honest, I’m not really seeing the difference here.

I’d agree that WCRC have been daft if they have spent more on legal fees than they would have done in fitting CDL.

WCRC took court action and lost and then the ORR pretty much immediately thereafter revoked their exemption two months early. Maybe I’m getting cynical in my old age, but that looks very much like a retaliation by the ORR to me.

In fairness I also have misgivings about WCRC more generally. Although if the ORR’s real issue is WCRC they should come out and take regulatory action properly, rather than this snide attempt to put WCRC out of business by the back door.

Re your penultimate para my understanding is that WCRC only got the last exemption to permit the legal process to play out. Once it had the exemption wasn't required for that purpose and was promptly removed.

 

[D6130]

I understand that the line limit is 45mph

40 between Fort William and Glenfinnan Viaduct, 25 across the viaduct and then 30 thence to Mallaig. (Some higher Sprinter speeds apply between Fort William and Glenfinnan....but not relevant to this discussion.

 

[philthetube]

It’s about 25mph, same as on heritage railways where CDL also doesn’t apply.

The Jacobite takes roughly two hours to do the 50 miles or so from Fort William to Mallaig.

I’ll be honest, I’m not really seeing the difference here.

IOM railways are irrelevant to this discussion, they are not regulated by by the orr and so you might as well comment that railways in India run with open doors so that should be ok here.

 

[Mountain Man]

It may be possible for WCRC to get an exemption specifcally for the Jacobite depending on the mood of the ORR, as NYMR runs over Network Rail in Whitby and has an agreement that they dont need CDL in exchange for a 25mph speed limit.

Why should there be another exemption?

All it does is delay the inevitable.

The bit I’ve bolded is the really
relevant bit. As I’ve just added to my previous post, this all feels quite personal to me. The ORR wouldn’t be the first regulator to try and tie a specific company they deem unwelcome up in knots, as it’s often an easier alternative to trying to revoke their licence.

How are they tieing them in knots? They are simply asking for rules to be adhered to that plenty of other companies have done without drama or issue.

The easiest solution is to just fit CDL like everyone else did and save this whole melodrama.

 

[Bill57p9]

40 between Fort William and Glenfinnan Viaduct, 25 across the viaduct and then 30 thence to Mallaig. (Some higher Sprinter speeds apply between Fort William and Glenfinnan....but not relevant to this discussion.

The CDL regulation applies to railways rather than stock operating with speeds in excess of 25mph.
Hence the NYMR Grosmont to Whitby operation remains an exemption to the regulation.

Maybe ORR would consider an exemption limited to Fort William to Mallaig and 25mph, however the conditions of that exemption would need to actually be complied with, plus it wouldn't open the door to operation elsewhere.
This latter point could be regarded as a positive or negative depending on where you sit...

 

[renegademaster]

How are they tieing them in knots? They are simply asking for rules to be adhered to that plenty of other companies have done without drama or issue.

And lots of other companies have found it uneconomical and troublesome to fit.

Really though, we should only ever allow the absolute upmost of saftey and only allow railtours to use Azumas and Electrostars