• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
7,948
Location
West Riding
What were the circumstances? The last train along the Winbledon to West Croydon line did similar. Pulled away from a red signal with numerous doors open and lots of people on the platform. I must say that I find incidents like Wootton Bassett a much greater concern that CDL, or the lack of it. The use of doors is entirely within my control. What the train crew do is not.
Train pulled into the station (hauled by a pair of 47’s), but stopped short unintentionally. Doors were opened but the train pulled forward to the correct stopping point without any dispatch procedure being followed and the doors still open.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,302
Train pulled into the station (hauled by a pair of 47’s), but stopped short unintentionally. Doors were opened but the train pulled forward to the correct stopping point without any dispatch procedure being followed and the doors still open.
Which would have been mitigated by CDL - under the control of the guard. Assuming that the guard realised they had stopped short.
 

Bill57p9

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2019
Messages
489
Location
Ayrshire
Which CDL wouldn't have prevented. Does sound like the guard/stewards are more an issue than CDL or the lack off
Last year's Jacobite prohibition notice had more to do with an insufficient number of stewards than the practices of those remaining, leading to passengers being instructed to operate the secondary locks and doors themselves.

Speculative warning: Based on the NYMR exemption, presumably ORR would be open for an exemption with a 25mph limit. Given the Jacobite runs slowly and is only timed 45mph max now, presumably this could offer a resolution. For the Jacobite and not the country wide operation...
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,686
Location
Redcar
Does sound like the guard/stewards are more an issue than CDL or the lack off
But of course WCRCs proposed work around for not having CDL kinda relied on stewards so if there's problems there that calls into question the viability of their mitigation...
Though not with CDL with driver release as is very common on the wider network.
Though presumably the driver in that scenario would know they've stopped short so wouldn't then attempt to move off again having released the doors in the wrong place (not they could on modern stock as the doors would be interlocked until closed).
 

Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
7,948
Location
West Riding
Which would have been mitigated by CDL - under the control of the guard. Assuming that the guard realised they had stopped short.
And assuming that the guard didn’t release it in advance of the stop in preparation, which by WCRC’s 2016 standards was possible. I was on that tour and came away with such little confidence in WCRC’s standards that I took a break from any services operated by them.

I’m now at a point where I will use them again, but clearly they still have some work to do.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,351
Speculative warning: Based on the NYMR exemption, presumably ORR would be open for an exemption with a 25mph limit. Given the Jacobite runs slowly and is only timed 45mph max now, presumably this could offer a resolution. For the Jacobite and not the country wide operation...

I've read elsewhere that there isn't capacity on the line to accommodate both a 25mph Jacobite and the ScotRail services.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,393
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
No mainline operators are ever going to be banned from operating regardless of what they get up to, outfits like WCR are easy meat for the ORR, by the way I am in no way defending WCR previous misdemeanors, the TPWS isolation incident was shocking, all I am asking for is the evidence based facts that have led to the ORR insisting on CDL on the jacobite stock, also what other operators are affected by this?
Oh yes they would - if a TOC overtly ignored safety issues consistently, they would be banned and their operations re-assigned as soon as possible. It would be difficult but it would happen.

I've read elsewhere that there isn't capacity on the line to accommodate both a 25mph Jacobite and the ScotRail services.
I wouldn't be at all surprised. It shouldn't be beyond a reputable rail operator to work within the rules, especially for a working that I believe almost always loads well (out of interest does anyone know the approximate average % loading of 'The Jacobite'). Is the 45mph limit to accommodate the tender-first running or simply owing to the nature of the route?

Which would have been mitigated by CDL - under the control of the guard. Assuming that the guard realised they had stopped short.
Yes, that's key.
 
Last edited:

Gaz67

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2022
Messages
127
Location
Irwell vale
Oh yes they would - if a TOC overtly ignored safety issues consistently, they would be banned and their operations re-assigned as soon as possible. It would be difficult but it would happen.


I wouldn't be at all surprised. It shouldn't be beyond a reputable rail operator to work within the rules, especially for a working that I believe almost always loads well (out of interest does anyone know the approximate average % loading of 'The Jacobite'). Is the 45mph limit to accommodate the tender-first running or simply owing to the nature of the route?


Yes, that's key.
Well Merseyrails safety record from 2005 is not to hot, a death with a guard sent to prison , drivers running through buffers due to distraction etc. I stand by my original point.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,371
Well Merseyrails safety record from 2005 is not to hot, a death with a guard sent to prison , drivers running through buffers due to distraction etc. I stand by my original point.
I wonder what the incident rate per passenger kilometer rate compares like
 

Meole

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2018
Messages
456
The Jacobite could run to Glenfinnan at 25 mph and then return to FW, satisfying the movie fans who want to travel over the viaduct.
 

Essan

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2017
Messages
530
Location
Evesham / Lochailort
The Jacobite could run to Glenfinnan at 25 mph and then return to FW, satisfying the movie fans who want to travel over the viaduct.
Unfortunately that wouldn't help the small businesses in Mallaig who are the real victims in all this.

I don't know how much of the line is 45mph though? Mostly along Loch Eil? It is certainly only 30 or 35mph for many stretches (assuming they travel at the same speed as Scotrail sprinters - I know for a fact that that is no more than 35 along most of Loch Eilt, between Glenfinnan and Lochailort).

I think a slower Jacobite could work, but probably for only one run a day rather than two.
 
Joined
31 Aug 2020
Messages
65
Location
Morecambe
Was there not an incident involving a Black 5 at Doncaster a short time afterwards....or was that before Wootton Bassett?

Pretty sure 86259 broke a set of points at Preston a few months ago by running into them the wrong way (something of that nature anyway)
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,245
Location
Wittersham Kent
Pretty sure 86259 broke a set of points at Preston a few months ago by running into them the wrong way (something of that nature anyway)
Unless that was a spad assuming Preston's all point motors, wouldn't that need to be a signaller error or defective equipment?
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,371
Unless that was a spad assuming Preston's all point motors, wouldn't that need to be a signaller error or defective equipment?
During a shunt move, the loco stopped in the wrong place then after changing ends the driver took a signal which had been cleared for another line, which caused chaos for the rest of the day.
 

yoyothehobo

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2015
Messages
553
I do find it amazing the mental gymnastics people will try and make on here to justify that WCRC should be allowed to run as they were.

As far as I can tell it goes like this:

ORR: Fit CDL
WCRC: It will take time and money, can we do it this way until we get that sorted
ORR: You Promise?
WCRC: Sure
WCRC: Exemption, woo, we are exempt from the rules
ORR: You broke your promise, no exemption any more
WCRC: Thats so unfair....you are so mean
 

yoyothehobo

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2015
Messages
553
Is this something west coast actually ever said, or is it them getting blamed from what members of the public commenting on the situation said?
Of course they havent actually said it.

But its a very reasonable assumption that given that everyone else abides by the same rules and that they are playing on the "Harry Potter train cancelled" because of the mean elf and safety brigade. Everyone from the ORR to the judges has seen through their blustering.
 

DDB

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2011
Messages
485
Is this something west coast actually ever said, or is it them getting blamed from what members of the public commenting on the situation said?
It was effectively their position by seeking the judicial review. The judge ruled it was fair and that the ORR weren't being mean.
 

yoyothehobo

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2015
Messages
553
It was effectively their position by seeking the judicial review. The judge ruled it was fair and that the ORR weren't being mean.
If it was sports, it would likely be seen as a frivolous review and subject to an extra game ban.
 

Harman

New Member
Joined
2 Jan 2024
Messages
4
Location
North West
I do find it amazing the mental gymnastics people will try and make on here to justify that WCRC should be allowed to run as they were.

As far as I can tell it goes like this:

ORR: Fit CDL
WCRC: It will take time and money, can we do it this way until we get that sorted
ORR: You Promise?
WCRC: Sure
WCRC: Exemption, woo, we are exempt from the rules
ORR: You broke your promise, no exemption any more
WCRC: Thats so unfair....you are so mean
That is actually very funny but wait until the WCRC supporters get a hold of you. I'm still laughing
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,306
Location
Fenny Stratford
I do find it amazing the mental gymnastics people will try and make on here to justify that WCRC should be allowed to run as they were.

As far as I can tell it goes like this:

ORR: Fit CDL
WCRC: It will take time and money, can we do it this way until we get that sorted
ORR: You Promise?
WCRC: Sure
WCRC: Exemption, woo, we are exempt from the rules
ORR: You broke your promise, no exemption any more
WCRC: Thats so unfair....you are so mean
Correct. insert thumbs up icon!
 

sprunt

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
1,174
WCRC's statement as reported here absolutely fits the bill of playing the victim as far as I can see.

West Coast Railways has expressed its serious disappointment that rail regulator, the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has revoked the exemption which enables it to operate its heritage rail services, including the world-famous Jacobite, on the UK main line.

With its 2024 season due to start in two weeks, the operator had asked the ORR to maintain an exemption that allowed it to operate services until 29 February 2024, while it works with the regulator to find a long-term solution. However, the regulator decided to revoke the exemption on 10 January 2024.

WCR has reaffirmed that it is keen to work with the ORR to identify solutions to enable its services to continue to operate, protecting jobs and vital income for businesses along its routes.

James Shuttleworth, Commercial Manager, West Coast Railways said: “We are extremely disappointed by this decision. We remain committed to working with the ORR to agree how we can safeguard the future of our heritage services. We now ask the regulator to reconsider urgently in the interests of our passengers and business partners, and to allow our exemption to run until 29 February.

“We are already considering a range of options and had asked the ORR to allow the current exemption to run its course, to give us time to put forward detailed proposals.

“Our much-loved services, enjoyed by so many visitors from the UK and around the world, support a large number of businesses along our routes. The Jacobite alone has become an intrinsic part of Scottish tourism, boosting the economies of Mallaig and Fort William. It brings an estimated £20 million into the UK's tourism sector to which we contribute £50 million overall every year.

For everyone relying on these incredible heritage services this decision is a body blow.”

Clearly written to present the revocation of the exemption as something that has just come out of nowhere, rather than being a result of their own failure to carry out the agreed actions that allowed the exemption to be granted.

"WCR has reaffirmed that it is keen to work with the ORR to identify solutions to enable its services to continue to operate" - the solution is known, fit CDL. What WCR wants isn't a solution, it's an excuse to avoid playing by the same rules as its competitors.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
3,225
Location
The back of beyond
Unfortunately that wouldn't help the small businesses in Mallaig who are the real victims in all this.

I don't know how much of the line is 45mph though? Mostly along Loch Eil? It is certainly only 30 or 35mph for many stretches (assuming they travel at the same speed as Scotrail sprinters - I know for a fact that that is no more than 35 along most of Loch Eilt, between Glenfinnan and Lochailort).

I think a slower Jacobite could work, but probably for only one run a day rather than two.

Without checking the Sectional Appendix, loco-hauled trains are generally subject to more speed restrictions than Sprinters and if any 'SP' speed boards are provided it would only be Sprinters that are permitted to travel at the higher speed.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,890
Location
Sheffield
As far as I understand it the exemption was granted until CDL was fitted, at least as far as ORR was concerned. It appears to have been taken as a perpetual exemption by the operators who then failed to adequately adhere to the conditions imposed or give details of how they intended to fully comply by a given date.

I'd be greatly reassured to read of how many carriages have now had CDL fitted in order to comply and the timescale envsaged for fitting all the others in the rakes normally used.

Up to now, silence.

I say this as a past user of the Jacobite and one who has seen how much pleasure it gives to viewers all the way along the line, especially at Glenfinnan.
 

3RDGEN

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2023
Messages
256
Location
Hull
As far as I understand it the exemption was granted until CDL was fitted, at least as far as ORR was concerned.
The exemption WCRC had for Regulation 5 is detailed in the link below, issued by ORR on 1st July 2023 and there is no requirement for them to be progressing/planning CDL fitment.

I don't believe WCRC every had an exemption based on them saying they would fit CDL. ORR made it very clear that from March 2023 operators would either have CDL fitted or have an agreed plan in place for it's fitment at which point ORR issued time limited exemptions to operate none CDL fitted stock beyond March 2023. Those exemptions came with the same mitigation requirements such as secondary locks and stewarding and ongoing reporting to ORR, as per the link below for VSOE. These exemptions can be revoked at any time by ORR.

WCRC only got ongoing exemptions last year because of the judicial review process, perhaps ORR should have held firm and refused those exemptions?

If WCRC refuse or can't justify fitting CDL, WCRC MkI stock is only currently exempt for operation until March 2028, then for their mainline tours they need to hire in CDL stock as they appear to be doing. For the Jacobite service their only other option is to try the "25mph limit" exemption route NYMR have agreed with ORR;


Then stick to letter of that exemption.
 

lineisclear

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2024
Messages
12
Location
Worcestershire
The exemption WCRC had for Regulation 5 is detailed in the link below, issued by ORR on 1st July 2023 and there is no requirement for them to be progressing/planning CDL fitment.


I don't believe WCRC every had an exemption based on them saying they would fit CDL. ORR made it very clear that from March 2023 operators would either have CDL fitted or have an agreed plan in place for it's fitment at which point ORR issued time limited exemptions to operate none CDL fitted stock beyond March 2023. Those exemptions came with the same mitigation requirements such as secondary locks and stewarding and ongoing reporting to ORR, as per the link below for VSOE. These exemptions can be revoked at any time by ORR.


WCRC only got ongoing exemptions last year because of the judicial review process, perhaps ORR should have held firm and refused those exemptions?

If WCRC refuse or can't justify fitting CDL, WCRC MkI stock is only currently exempt for operation until March 2028, then for their mainline tours they need to hire in CDL stock as they appear to be doing. For the Jacobite service their only other option is to try the "25mph limit" exemption route NYMR have agreed with ORR;



Then stick to letter of that exemption.

The NYMR doesn't have such an exemption. Following the judicial confirmation of ORR's ability to require compliance by West Coast NYMR is having to use door stewards as a tempoarary measure while door locking and droplight modifications are installed.
 
Last edited:

Top