WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[12LDA28C]

According to the latest Green Signals podcast, WCR has told them that the Mk1s are in the consist to provide electrical power to the Mk2s (presumably from their batteries/dynamos, to power the CDL valves). The Mk1s do not have an exemption and are not for passenger use.

Jacobite discussion at 05:28.

I guess WCR has been unable to source a ETH fitted diesel loco or generator van to provide electrical power to the Mk2s.

WCRC have several ETH-fitted locos in traffic they could use if they wanted to.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And my question here is what difference is the MK1 providing battery power making compared to simply charging the batteries on the mk2 vehicle from a mains charger which could then equally provide power for the doors? I probably missed something

 

[Greybeard33]

And my question here is what difference is the MK1 providing battery power making compared to simply charging the batteries on the mk2 vehicle from a mains charger which could then equally provide power for the doors? I probably missed something

Mk1s have axle driven dynamos that charge the batteries when the speed is above about 25mph. Early Mk2s have axle driven alternators, but I believe that the vehicles WCR is using will instead have battery charging from a motor alternator set fed from the ETH supply. As the Jacobite formation does not have an ETH power source, the batteries would likely become fully discharged over the course of the day's workings, unless supplemented by power from the Mk1s' dynamos.

 

[43096]

Mk1s have axle driven dynamos that charge the batteries when the speed is above about 25mph. Early Mk2s have axle driven alternators, but I believe that the vehicles WCR is using will instead have battery charging from a motor alternator set fed from the ETH supply. As the Jacobite formation does not have an ETH power source, the batteries would likely become fully discharged over the course of the day's workings, unless supplemented by power from the Mk1s' dynamos.

I’m intrigued how they are charging the Mark 2 batteries from the Mark 1s. Some sort of Heath Robinson temporary lash-up between them, presumably?

 

[BRX]

The morning service is running as advertised so subject to the usual possible issues should run and appears to be doing so daily. The guard has always sold tickets on the platform for cash but the morning service was usually fully booked so with reduced capacity it's even less likely. Any late cancellations may become available if there are no shows on the morning I guess.

The prices are quoted on the website in at least two places;

"https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/" - Departing from Fort William to Mallaig this 84 mile round trip takes you past a list of impressive extremes including the 21-arched Glenfinnan viaduct, Standard £65 | First Class £98"

""https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/jacobite/fare-prices".

I think they might have altered the info on their website since I looked yesterday. It's now saying online bookings available for 1st May but I don't think that was the case yesterday.

I see there are two "news" items that have just been added today:

News

Latest News West Coast Railways - trips throughout the UK, including the Jacobite from Fort William to Mallaig, the Scarborough Spa Express steam trips, the Dalesman Steam Trips and trips by luxury train. - Online Booking Now Available

westcoastrailways.co.uk

 

[renegademaster]

If the Mark 1s cant be used for passengers what is the point of them vs just putting a diesel on the back. Do they consider them that much off an aesthetic affront?

 

[12LDA28C]

If the Mark 1s cant be used for passengers what is the point of them vs just putting a diesel on the back. Do they consider them that much off an aesthetic affront?

This seems to have been answered in post #1,263. Presumably a diesel on the rear would need to be running to provide ETH to the train which would require an additional driver, as well as adding a lot of extra dead weight for the steam loco to haul.

 

[AM9]

This seems to have been answered in post #1,263. Presumably a diesel on the rear would need to be running to provide ETH to the train which would require an additional driver, as well as adding a lot of extra dead weight for the steam loco to haul.

An ETH loco would weigh between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 MK1 coaches, (without passengers)!

 

[renegademaster]

This seems to have been answered in post #1,263. Presumably a diesel on the rear would need to be running to provide ETH to the train which would require an additional driver, as well as adding a lot of extra dead weight for the steam loco to haul.

Do 3 coaches of extra revenue not add up to the cost of a driver?

 

[12LDA28C]

Do 3 coaches of extra revenue not add up to the cost of a driver?

Three coaches that can't be used for passengers and hence can provide no extra revenue?

 

[3RDGEN]

The train needs a Brake Van and catering facilities which are two of the MkI's in the set. The Brake Van is usually in the middle of the set to be platformed at Glenfinnan so assuming it doesn't have ETH you can't use a loco to provide a through train supply anyway. This current setup appears to be a cheap and cheerful fix however come summer it's going to get warm in those MkII's.

 

[renegademaster]

Three coaches that can't be used for passengers and hence can provide no extra revenue?

As in if they had a diesel they could replace the mark 1s with mark2s they can use

 

[geoffk]

I saw a couple of Mk1's in the WCRC train headed up to Fort William. I assume support carriages are exempt from CDL and also kitchen cars?

Are passengers carried in the Mk1s? I would have thought this wouldn’t be allowed with every door locked out of use in the vehicle. But if not, what’s the point in them being in the rake, especially every alternate coach?

Also I wonder how the CDL is operating, I assume the Mk1s have been modified with through wiring? All very bizarre.

Are passengers allowed to walk through the train if the Mark I doors are locked?

 

[renegademaster]

Are passengers allowed to walk through the train if the Mark I doors are locked?

I've walked through mark 1 buffets on an otherwise all mark 2 train before. Not sure what the door situation was

 

[Blindtraveler]

Mk1s have axle driven dynamos that charge the batteries when the speed is above about 25mph. Early Mk2s have axle driven alternators, but I believe that the vehicles WCR is using will instead have battery charging from a motor alternator set fed from the ETH supply. As the Jacobite formation does not have an ETH power source, the batteries would likely become fully discharged over the course of the day's workings, unless supplemented by power from the Mk1s' dynamos.

Thanks

 

[EdChap]

On West Coast Railways website, there is an announcement (29th April) that The Jacobite Afternoon Trips are cancelled between 6th May and 13th May. Apparently this is due to a debate with rail regulator. They also give their version of the dispute below!

 

[Greybeard33]

The train needs a Brake Van and catering facilities which are two of the MkI's in the set. The Brake Van is usually in the middle of the set to be platformed at Glenfinnan so assuming it doesn't have ETH you can't use a loco to provide a through train supply anyway. This current setup appears to be a cheap and cheerful fix however come summer it's going to get warm in those MkII's.

Could the Mk1s not be fitted with through ETH cabling? I understand that in BR days Mk1 brake and catering vehicles were often included in a train that otherwise consisted of Mk2s, so this must be possible.

 

[Spaceship323]

Could the Mk1s not be fitted with through ETH cabling? I understand that in BR days Mk1 brake and catering vehicles were often included in a train that otherwise consisted of Mk2s, so this must be possible.

(My bold) It's also possible to fit CDL but they haven't done that either!

 

[Llanigraham]

On West Coast Railways website, there is an announcement (29th April) that The Jacobite Afternoon Trips are cancelled between 6th May and 13th May. Apparently this is due to a debate with rail regulator. They also give their version of the dispute below!

From the website:

Important Announcement - The Jacobite Afternoon trips

<p id="isPasted"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><img src="https://wcr-s3.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/1fyKSZNDv7yZHM53E6oDM3dvfOyDfBM9sj0bC7Qk.jpg" class="fr-fic fr-dib w-full"></p><p><strong>UPDATE - JACOBITE AFTERNOON SERVICE - 29/04//2024. </strong></p><p>We are sorry that we need to...

westcoastrailways.co.uk

UPDATE - JACOBITE AFTERNOON SERVICE - 29/04//2024.

We are sorry that we need to cancel trips on our Jacobite Steam Train service (afternoon trips only).

The morning trips departing from Fort William at 10:15am are unaffected by these cancellations and are due to run on time.

Today we have announced the cancelled trips for the afternoon service - (12:50 pm departure from Fort William) these are from the 6th May to the 13th May 2024 inclusive. Passengers will be contacted directly by email and SMS text to inform them of the cancellations. To clarify, we have now cancelled all the afternoon service trips departing Fort William at 12:50 from 6th May to 13th May 2024 (dates inclusive).

As we are unable to offer alternative trips on the Jacobite afternoon service at this time, our reservations team will process full refunds for customers with bookings on those dates in the next 5 working days.

All refunds will be paid via the payment method used to make the booking. Customers who used credit vouchers will be issued with a replacement to the same value to redeem before 31 May 2025.

This suspension of this service is due to a debate with the rail regulator around door locking (please see below for further details). We share the regulator’s commitment to safety and our priority now is to work with it to renew permission to enable us to run The Jacobite on the main rail line.

We hope to be able to operate scheduled future afternoon trips on the Jacobite, but will contact all customers ahead of their journey date directly, in the event the trip they have booked will not run. In that case, we also will issue a full refund.

PLEASE NOTE - NEW BOOKINGS FOR THE JACOBITE ARE CLOSED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE FOR BOTH TRIPS, except those detailed on the https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/jacobite-seats-available-to-book page.

Please contact WCR via: [email protected] for further information.



Further details

What is the dispute with the Office of Road and Rail (ORR) all about, and why does West Coast Railways (WCR) believe it should receive an exemption from the ORR.

The ORR has a policy (called Regulation 5) for all heritage Mark 1 and Mark 2 carriages (the Mark 1’s are used on the Jacobite trip) to have central door locking (CDL) fitted, so they can continue to run their carriages on the mainline rail network in the UK. The basis of this policy is to ensure the safety of rail passengers when travelling in these heritage carriages.

Why then is WCR requesting that it should receive an exemption from this?

1. There have always been exemptions granted under this policy and WCR has had exemptions on these carriages for nearly 30 years. In the court case in December 2023, the Court judgement helpfully summarises the policy as follows:

“The ORR’s policy gives a strong steer that central door locking will be required, but it nonetheless makes clear that ORR will consider granting an exemption from Regulation 5 where an applicant can “demonstrate that there are exceptional circumstances”. Two examples of exceptional circumstances are given but they are not said to be exhaustive. It is ‘expected’ that any deviation from the policy “provide an equivalent level of safety protection to central door locking” but the requirement is not mandatory.”

1. Other companies are operating on the mainline rail network, using the same mark 1 and mark 2 carriages that WCR use. The ORR has allowed them to continue to run under an exemption granted by the ORR, even though these carriages have not been fitted with CDL. WCR has not been granted the same exemption as these other operators.

1. As this policy is deemed to be about safety, it is clear from the above that this is not the case, otherwise no operator would be allowed to run these carriages without have CDL fitted.

1. Is this about WCR not being up to the level of safety that these other operators are?
   1. Again, it is very clear from the court case in December 2023 that this is not the case. The ORR Admitted to the court that there were no safety concerns with WCR’s operating procedures adopted when running these heritage carriages.
   2. In fact it is WCR’s contention, as submitted in their application for an exemption continuation, and in the comprehensive risk assessment attached to the application (produced by an independent Health & Safety company), that the current method of having two door locks fitted to each door (one main lock, plus a secondary deadbolt), plus having a steward present in each carriage, is far safer than having to spend millions of pounds to fit CDL.

1. Exemption: WCR have requested (and fully expected to receive, as other operators have), a temporary exemption, whilst the ORR considered it’s full application.

We are working closely with the ORR to reach a speedy conclusion to this, but until then we have had to suspend running the Jacobite service. This is affecting not only WCR, but over 100,000 passengers, the majority of whom are tourists to the West Highlands, this in turn affects thousands of local businesses and employment in the area.



Further updates will be posted here on a regular basis.



West Coast Railways

 

[Greybeard33]

(My bold) It's also possible to fit CDL but they haven't done that either!

They presumably have CDL control wiring through the Mk1s in order that the Mk2 doors can be centrally locked from the Mk1 brake coach (again, I think that must have been done in BR days when CDL was first introduced).

 

[Bletchleyite]

On West Coast Railways website, there is an announcement (29th April) that The Jacobite Afternoon Trips are cancelled between 6th May and 13th May. Apparently this is due to a debate with rail regulator. They also give their version of the dispute below!

Why can't they run the afternoon trips with the CDL Mk2s? Or does that require a second set?

 

[Spaceship323]

They presumably have CDL control wiring through the Mk1s in order that the Mk2 doors can be centrally locked from the Mk1 brake coach (again, I think that must have been done in BR days when CDL was first introduced).

Of course, I didn't think of that. Thanks

 

[renegademaster]

(My bold) It's also possible to fit CDL but they haven't done that either!

Running an cable is a bit easier

 

[43096]

They presumably have CDL control wiring through the Mk1s in order that the Mk2 doors can be centrally locked from the Mk1 brake coach (again, I think that must have been done in BR days when CDL was first introduced).

You don’t have to have a CDL control panel in the brake coach.

 

[Bill57p9]

Why can't they run the afternoon trips with the CDL Mk2s? Or does that require a second set?

Their paths require separate sets: the afternoon path departs Fort William 1250, whilst the morning run doesn't get back until 1603.
The afternoon trip used to depart later, but still before the morning return.

 

[sprinterguy]

The train needs a Brake Van and catering facilities which are two of the MkI's in the set. The Brake Van is usually in the middle of the set to be platformed at Glenfinnan so assuming it doesn't have ETH you can't use a loco to provide a through train supply anyway. This current setup appears to be a cheap and cheerful fix however come summer it's going to get warm in those MkII's.

Could the Mk1s not be fitted with through ETH cabling? I understand that in BR days Mk1 brake and catering vehicles were often included in a train that otherwise consisted of Mk2s, so this must be possible.

As far as I'm aware, all the remaining main line railtour mark 1s are wired for electric train supply. Some (perhaps most?) are dual heat, though the BCK currently in use in the Jacobite rake, 21266, was a later built vehicle that is historically electric heat only.

 

[DarloRich]

This is on the WCRC website regarding thier issues with the ORR:

What is the dispute with the Office of Road and Rail (ORR) all about, and why does West Coast Railways (WCR) believe it should receive an exemption from the ORR.

The ORR has a policy (called Regulation 5) for all heritage Mark 1 and Mark 2 carriages (the Mark 1’s are used on the Jacobite trip) to have central door locking (CDL) fitted, so they can continue to run their carriages on the mainline rail network in the UK. The basis of this policy is to ensure the safety of rail passengers when travelling in these heritage carriages.

Why then is WCR requesting that it should receive an exemption from this?

1. There have always been exemptions granted under this policy and WCR has had exemptions on these carriages for nearly 30 years. In the court case in December 2023, the Court judgement helpfully summarises the policy as follows:

“The ORR’s policy gives a strong steer that central door locking will be required, but it nonetheless makes clear that ORR will consider granting an exemption from Regulation 5 where an applicant can “demonstrate that there are exceptional circumstances”. Two examples of exceptional circumstances are given but they are not said to be exhaustive. It is ‘expected’ that any deviation from the policy “provide an equivalent level of safety protection to central door locking” but the requirement is not mandatory.”

1. Other companies are operating on the mainline rail network, using the same mark 1 and mark 2 carriages that WCR use. The ORR has allowed them to continue to run under an exemption granted by the ORR, even though these carriages have not been fitted with CDL. WCR has not been granted the same exemption as these other operators.
2. As this policy is deemed to be about safety, it is clear from the above that this is not the case, otherwise no operator would be allowed to run these carriages without have CDL fitted.
3. Is this about WCR not being up to the level of safety that these other operators are?
   1. Again, it is very clear from the court case in December 2023 that this is not the case. The ORR Admitted to the court that there were no safety concerns with WCR’s operating procedures adopted when running these heritage carriages.
   2. In fact it is WCR’s contention, as submitted in their application for an exemption continuation, and in the comprehensive risk assessment attached to the application (produced by an independent Health & Safety company), that the current method of having two door locks fitted to each door (one main lock, plus a secondary deadbolt), plus having a steward present in each carriage, is far safer than having to spend millions of pounds to fit CDL.
4. Exemption: WCR have requested (and fully expected to receive, as other operators have), a temporary exemption, whilst the ORR considered it’s full application.

We are working closely with the ORR to reach a speedy conclusion to this, but until then we have had to suspend running the Jacobite service. This is affecting not only WCR, but over 100,000 passengers, the majority of whom are tourists to the West Highlands, this in turn affects thousands of local businesses and employment in the area.

 

[12LDA28C]

This is on the WCRC website regarding thier issues with the ORR:

Seems to me like they've omitted a few key points from that statement whilst portraying themselves as the victim.

 

[DarloRich]

Seems to me like they've omitted a few key points from that statement whilst portraying themselves as the victim.

you might think that, I couldn't possibly comment!

 

[43096]

Seems to me like they've omitted a few key points from that statement whilst portraying themselves as the victim.

No change there.

For starters the regulations are not an ORR policy, they are a matter of law.

They’re still omitting the bit about other operators having an exemption only until they fit CDL as part of their committed fitment plans.