kje7812
Member
There were signalling problems between Morpeth and Newcastle. The 05.48 from Edinburgh was held at Dunbar for few mins and then waited at Berwick. We left 30 late.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Weather related disruption Leeds/York/Doncaster (27/07)
- Thread starter cuccir
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Bantamzen
Established Member
I suspect that on a Friday, midway between two peaks with the roads already busier than usual and lots of holiday traffic as many schools broke up, getting even an hourly bus for even a few routes would have been a logistical nightmare. I don't think even the most experienced member of backroom staff would have been draw reams of spare buses and drivers from the magic bus tree yesterday.
I think there are a few things that came together around yesterday’s event that made the impact so bad. I’m sure it will highlight some lessons that can be made in terms of resilience of a modern day railway.
This was a major thunderstorm right on top of York (I was in it going to work). A number of houses around York were hit and I know of a few where telegraph poles were hit and blew up peoples routers etc!
Normally a lightening strike on Signalling hits lineside equipment somewhere and is normally fairly localised where signallers would normally still know where the trains are. This hit the IECC and I believe wiped out everything, so is much more of a logistical challenge and probably explains the lack of communication in places - not fully sure but I think some of the phone systems were also out.
In addition the replacement bus situation was probably worsened by both the magnitude of Services affected (normally 1 or 2 routes not all routes) but also a major race event at York Racecourse so there were the normal array of coaches etc already in use to the racecourse. I presume LNER get the priority call, then XC and TPE which probably left Northern with no chance!
Altogether a perfect storm in more ways than one!
This was a major thunderstorm right on top of York (I was in it going to work). A number of houses around York were hit and I know of a few where telegraph poles were hit and blew up peoples routers etc!
Normally a lightening strike on Signalling hits lineside equipment somewhere and is normally fairly localised where signallers would normally still know where the trains are. This hit the IECC and I believe wiped out everything, so is much more of a logistical challenge and probably explains the lack of communication in places - not fully sure but I think some of the phone systems were also out.
In addition the replacement bus situation was probably worsened by both the magnitude of Services affected (normally 1 or 2 routes not all routes) but also a major race event at York Racecourse so there were the normal array of coaches etc already in use to the racecourse. I presume LNER get the priority call, then XC and TPE which probably left Northern with no chance!
Altogether a perfect storm in more ways than one!
In fairness to Northern, they arranged ticket acceptance on Arriva buses pretty much straight away.
In fairness to those who lament the lack of coaches for longer distance routes, the coach industry itself has a fairly efficient 'All Points Broadcast' system; the suggestion that someone from a train operating company is ringing around a list of bus companies from the Yellow Pages should be a long way from any kind of disaster recovery process.
In terms of vehicle availability, there actually should have been quite a lot yesterday, for a weekday, as most school services would have ended last Friday (20th) and there's a reasonably large number of high-density vehicles lying fairly fallow for the next five weeks. These are the types of vehicle that often wouldn't be switched to private hire 'coach tour' type roles.
What would have been (and always is) a challenge would be getting drivers for them, however, whether that was as a result of an APB through the coach industry or a direct contact from outside it. It's drivers that don't sit around 'on call' - not the coaches.
In fairness to those who lament the lack of coaches for longer distance routes, the coach industry itself has a fairly efficient 'All Points Broadcast' system; the suggestion that someone from a train operating company is ringing around a list of bus companies from the Yellow Pages should be a long way from any kind of disaster recovery process.
In terms of vehicle availability, there actually should have been quite a lot yesterday, for a weekday, as most school services would have ended last Friday (20th) and there's a reasonably large number of high-density vehicles lying fairly fallow for the next five weeks. These are the types of vehicle that often wouldn't be switched to private hire 'coach tour' type roles.
What would have been (and always is) a challenge would be getting drivers for them, however, whether that was as a result of an APB through the coach industry or a direct contact from outside it. It's drivers that don't sit around 'on call' - not the coaches.
But I come back to, how therefore did LNER manage to secure over 40 coaches (and yes I'm aware LRER serves a wide geography. Northern serves a pretty big one too.)?
I’m in Wetherby, so a little further out.
Robertj21a
On Moderation
- Joined
- 22 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 7,672
No idea, have you asked them ?
Bantamzen
Established Member
As you say, the drivers would not have been available. But the kind of vehicles sitting around aren't exactly the most suited for anything other than short road journeys. Fine for some of the shorter routes, maybe not do much the longer ones.
Unfortunately in life not everything goes to plan. Yesterday's disruption was a once in a blue moon event, and it is not always possible to mitigate for everything that happens.
I think it's more a question for Northern to ask LNER and maybe learn something.
The last refuge of the complacent underperforming organisation is to say 'no one but us understands why it's difficult'. I hesr the same excuse from underperforming organisations in the NHS'.
Last edited:
DarloRich
Veteran Member
But to effect change should one not have an understanding of the difficulties? After all the best ideas for change come from those trying to make something work day by day.
Ploughman
Established Member
Is there an instance here of one of the disadvantages of centralising the signalling control on just a couple of locations?
matacaster
On Moderation
One assumes that the centralization of signalling control has been run past the Ministry of Defence and they have no plans to use the rail network for any military use in the event of an attack on UK either by some insurgent group or a foreign power. These signalling control centres would be easy targets and destruction would cripple the UK rail network. Replacing them would likely take some time. OHLE is also especially vulnerable to attack bearing in mind ECML knitting falls down with little encouragement anyway.
Indeed they are, Roads Closed due to flooding in France, French Trains cancelled, due to broken AC on trains and Signalling failures, Oh..Planes grounded in various locations around Europe due to storms, yes they cope a lot better than we do !
I think you will find a strike on a ROC will not have a major effect, might well cause a flash over for a few moments, and that will revert signals to Danger etc, but it will restore (or should do) after a few mins, but will take a bit of time for the Signallers to reset everything, and explain to Drivers, all the sudden 'reds' ! However a strike to a relay room, or similar in the middle of nowhere, a different story
Exactly, at least 50% of trains at Paris-Montparnasse have been cancelled since Thursday (similar to King’s Cross I’d estimate!) due to the heat, and other disruptions elsewhere, so I’d say the UK isn’t doing too badly really. Especially given how quickly this incident seems to have resolved itself and got back on its feet, with minimal disruption from Saturday morning
.
bahnause
Member
Based on my experiences, being prepared helps a lot in these circumstances. If you already have an emergency plan / checklist ready in the draw, organizing a bus replacement is pretty straightforward. We used this type of checklists quite often (I assume they are still in use). All the relevant Phone numbers, bus stops and timings were on this checklist. The bus operators used these checklists as well, so the bus drivers were already informed about the the route and the stops. It's not perfect, but even with reduced availability of busses, a basic service was usually possible.
londonmidland
Established Member
The thing at Leeds is the placements of the speakers is really poor. Placed too far apart, plus with the roof, you get an echo.
What annoys me is that safety announcements and any manual announcements are set at a high volume, however the automated announcements are set at a really low volume for some reason.
I have asked why this is and the speakers are ‘supposed’ to have an ambience noise sensor, which automatically increases and decreases the volume, however they clearly don’t work.
They cannot have it set permanently at the highest volume because apparently it would be too loud in the concourse...
What annoys me is that safety announcements and any manual announcements are set at a high volume, however the automated announcements are set at a really low volume for some reason.
I have asked why this is and the speakers are ‘supposed’ to have an ambience noise sensor, which automatically increases and decreases the volume, however they clearly don’t work.
They cannot have it set permanently at the highest volume because apparently it would be too loud in the concourse...
Bantamzen
Established Member
I agree about having a continuity plan, I'm sure all TOCs have one. However Friday was a set of exceptional circumstances that would have been incredibly hard to predict and plan for. As it happens, and thankfully, I'd chosen earlier in the week to work from home otherwise I would have been caught up in the problems getting home. So whilst at home I was keeping an eye on the weather, particularly the thunder storms through a handy site that monitors lightning.
https://www.lightningmaps.org
There were two major cells that rolled up the eastern side of the country, emanating in the East Midlands and tracked due North towards the Vale of York. The amount of strikes that day was significant, and so disruption was almost inevitable. Add to that it being a Friday at the start of the holiday season, and as mentioned up thread a race meeting at York would have meant that RRBs would have been difficult to come by. At some point someone would have had to make the call, do the TOC try to patch together a piecemeal RRB, which could get tangled up in the extra traffic on the roads, or do they simply say don't travel unless you have to and try to restore as much of the rail network as was possible? it would have been a tough call, and one they wouldn't have taken lightly.
Of course this doesn't help the passengers already en route or waiting at stations. But looking at the various social media feeds, it was becoming clear within the first hour or so that the situation was serious and so those with access to them could have started to make their own judgements. Sometimes in unexpected situations, communications can be lacking through those affected simply not knowing what the situation is, or how it can be resolved. Not everything pans out so that timescales & solutions can quickly be effected. And this is where the great British public can to a degree help themselves and others. I know when I've been caught up in disruption, I've looked at the various resources to get an idea of what was going on and then communicated this with people around me. That way people with no access to these communication channels can at least think about what they want to do. We do increasingly expect information almost immediately, but some times its just not possible and we have to manage our own decisions.
northernchris
Established Member
- Joined
- 24 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 1,530
I was stuck on the first train to become delayed by this, caused by points failure at Leeds West Junction. Left Bradford at 1803 and arrived Leeds at 1939. The conductor was great (and I've contacted Northern directly about him) but it was clear he wasn't getting much information. From what I understood Network Rail were refusing to provide any ETA and also refused to allow the train to head up towards Wakefield to cross over, despite the LNER immediately behind us doing that.
Iskra
Established Member
As well as getting delay repay for this I've been sent an email from LNER apologising and asking me to email them and they will send me a 'small gesture of goodwill' too. Any ideas what they might have in mind?
- Status