Welsh Assembly Government still planning Cambrian hourly for 2011

[Gareth Marston]

We would be lucky if we get the hourly service at all if you read "ERTMS live and working" thread. Also they have to training new drivers which takes about 12 months, so I'd expect it to be about December 2011 timetable change if it is to happen

Mach depot drivers have been saying for ages that they don't do enough driving per shift. Driver numbers were ramped up about 5 years ago, ATW hedging that WAG would have delivered the lolly before now.

 

[The Planner]

We would be lucky if we get the hourly service at all if you read "ERTMS live and working" thread. Also they have to training new drivers which takes about 12 months, so I'd expect it to be about December 2011 timetable change if it is to happen

Thats assuming they go hourly all day in one go, which frankly they are highly unlikely to ever do.

 

[the-gog]

October this year is what an ATW driver I know has been told will be the start date of some sort of hourly service.

 

[The Planner]

Best ATW tell us then !!

 

[the-gog]

NR at Mach will know about it. I don't know about the rest of the empire. There's still no word about when the Down line on the Welshpool loop will be used. NR want it to "bed in" apparently, but without trains using it.

 

[Gareth Marston]

NR at Mach will know about it. I don't know about the rest of the empire. There's still no word about when the Down line on the Welshpool loop will be used. NR want it to "bed in" apparently, but without trains using it.

WAG would have to have given ATW official go ahead and as that didnt happen before Senedd dissolved and WAG cant announce anything until after new govt is in place May 5th sounds highly spurious..

I wonder if someone tackled a Plaid candidate about it and were fed a load of crap to cover up for the fact that Plaid had failed to deliver the hourly service in their 4 years in office despite the Ceredigion Plaid AM always telling everyone how behind it Plaid were?

 

[seagull]

There's still no word about when the Down line on the Welshpool loop will be used. NR want it to "bed in" apparently, but without trains using it.

It's almost comical - the biggest problem is that now with ERTMS, Tamping & Track Machines which could be used to improve the down loop cannot get to Welshpool without first being dragged there by an ERTMS fitted Class 97, and then only used if in a full possession (not sure of terminology but something like that anyway).
So yes, it needs bedding in somehow, but quite how they propose to do this I'm not sure.

I have difficulty seeing October this year for hourly, given how far in advance timetables have to be worked out and agreed on. And while they're at it, why not make Dovey Junction a request stop, seeing as trains don't HAVE to stop there for token exchanges anymore... There are request stops along the Coast line which see far higher passenger numbers.

 

[the-gog]

It's almost comical - the biggest problem is that now with ERTMS, Tamping & Track Machines which could be used to improve the down loop cannot get to Welshpool without first being dragged there by an ERTMS fitted Class 97, and then only used if in a full possession (not sure of terminology but something like that anyway).
So yes, it needs bedding in somehow, but quite how they propose to do this I'm not sure.

I've been given some gen tonight that a couple of 97s may be coming down a week on Thursday to run up and down the Down line south of Welshpool to bed it in. Even if it's booked to run, it still may not do, as we've been discovering.

 

[merlodlliw]

October this year is what an ATW driver I know has been told will be the start date of some sort of hourly service.

Absolute nothing in this at all,I agree with Gareth Plaid candidates are putting out a face saving exercise, no decision was made before the Assembly closed
two weeks ago. No money as been promised, so ATW will do nothing.
In any case when a new Minister is put in stitu, and it will be a new Minister, in my opinion no decisions are going to be made before the return of the Assembly after its
Summer recess in October.

Bob

 

[nr_signaller]

It's almost comical - the biggest problem is that now with ERTMS, Tamping & Track Machines which could be used to improve the down loop cannot get to Welshpool without first being dragged there by an ERTMS fitted Class 97, and then only used if in a full possession (not sure of terminology but something like that anyway).

They can only work within a possession anyway..

 

[Gareth Marston]

Absolute nothing in this at all,I agree with Gareth Plaid candidates are putting out a face saving exercise, no decision was made before the Assembly closed
two weeks ago. No money as been promised, so ATW will do nothing.
In any case when a new Minister is put in stitu, and it will be a new Minister, in my opinion no decisions are going to be made before the return of the Assembly after its
Summer recess in October.


Bob

Quite. Sources in ATW confirm that the Minister had a veritable shopping list of ball park cost for extra services virtually all over Welsh Network from them in last couple of years. Whilst they were resigned to WAG 2 as a near certainty Fishguard queue jumped some others that there had been far more discussion/dialogue and planning about. ATW crew in other depots may have been aware of these and there could have been local speculation thats worked its way into the minds of others as fact. Carmarthen depot were planing on 5th Heart of Wales train or so my source says.

 

[merlodlliw]

Quite. Sources in ATW confirm that the Minister had a veritable shopping list of ball park cost for extra services virtually all over Welsh Network from them in last couple of years. Whilst they were resigned to WAG 2 as a near certainty Fishguard queue jumped some others that there had been far more discussion/dialogue and planning about. ATW crew in other depots may have been aware of these and there could have been local speculation thats worked its way into the minds of others as fact. Carmarthen depot were planing on 5th Heart of Wales train or so my source says.

Yes Chatter all over the place, tomorrow at Aberystwyth, I expect some kind of stock answer to be made on the hourly service, as I understand Jones will be present(he is still Minister until May5th).
Local prospective Labour A.M down here, tells me one of the three WAG subsidised services will have to go, Labour want Wagair killed off, but stuck with the contract, WAG2 as a contract for seven years, that Leaves Gerald Wag Premier Express only contracted in its present form to Dec 2011, who knows, but if as seems likely now a Labour run Wag Govt, goodbye Gerald
in its present £2M plus tax payers subsidy form for sure. Time will tell

Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes Chatter all over the place, tomorrow at Aberystwyth, I expect some kind of stock answer to be made on the hourly service, as I understand Jones will be present(he is still Minister until May5th).
Local prospective Labour A.M down here, tells me one of the three WAG subsidised services will have to go, Labour want Wagair killed off, but stuck with the contract, WAG2 as a contract for seven years, that Leaves Gerald Wag Premier Express only contracted in its present form to Dec 2011, who knows, but if as seems likely now a Labour run Wag Govt, goodbye Gerald
in its present £2M plus tax payers subsidy form for sure. Time will tell

Bob

One hopes there's a get out clause in the WAG Air contract... Gerald may be expensive, but once you take the £400,000 cost per year of maintaining the civilan terminal at RAF Valley into account it's much better value for money than WAG Air. When it had a £1.7m subsidy I was told Gerald's subsidy was around £6.30 per passenger. For Ieuan Air at £1.2m per anum (800k for flights, 400k for Valley airport) that was around £110 per passenger.

Unlike WAG Air Gerald also sends the right message about choosing more enviromental friendly forms of transport.

It can't be cheap leasing those 57s (possibly via Virgin, who probablly ask for a profit if that's the case). If WAG had actually bought the stock for the north-south expresses, it'd probablly have been cheaper in the long run.

 

[tbtc]

One hopes there's a get out clause in the WAG Air contract... Gerald may be expensive, but once you take the £400,000 cost per year of maintaining the civilan terminal at RAF Valley into account it's much better value for money than WAG Air. When it had a £1.7m subsidy I was told Gerald's subsidy was around £6.30 per passenger. For Ieuan Air at £1.2m per anum (800k for flights, 400k for Valley airport) that was around £110 per passenger.

Unlike WAG Air Gerald also sends the right message about choosing more enviromental friendly forms of transport.

It can't be cheap leasing those 57s (possibly via Virgin, who probablly ask for a profit if that's the case). If WAG had actually bought the stock for the north-south expresses, it'd probablly have been cheaper in the long run.

At least with the WAG train it is of use to normal people* on local journeys (e.g. Rhyl - Chester, Abergavenny - Cardiff) even if nobody uses it from Holyhead to Cardiff, but the WAG Air is only of use to people travelling from one end to the other.

(* - by "normal people" I mean the kind of people who pay for their own tickets, not those on state junkets)

 

[tirphil]

At least with the WAG train it is of use to normal people* on local journeys (e.g. Rhyl - Chester, Abergavenny - Cardiff) even if nobody uses it from Holyhead to Cardiff, but the WAG Air is only of use to people travelling from one end to the other.

(* - by "normal people" I mean the kind of people who pay for their own tickets, not those on state junkets)

Spot on. Couldn't agree more.

 

[connor7777]

Just be careful how you word thing, you assume everyone on here is in work, well guess what, no they aint. I'm not in work.

 

[merlodlliw]

One hopes there's a get out clause in the WAG Air contract... Gerald may be expensive, but once you take the £400,000 cost per year of maintaining the civilan terminal at RAF Valley into account it's much better value for money than WAG Air. When it had a £1.7m subsidy I was told Gerald's subsidy was around £6.30 per passenger. For Ieuan Air at £1.2m per anum (800k for flights, 400k for Valley airport) that was around £110 per passenger.

Unlike WAG Air Gerald also sends the right message about choosing more enviromental friendly forms of transport.

It can't be cheap leasing those 57s (possibly via Virgin, who probablly ask for a profit if that's the case). If WAG had actually bought the stock for the north-south expresses, it'd probablly have been cheaper in the long run.

WAGAIR contract is without a get out clause as such, unless it goes tits up like the other firm. Wagair gets £1.2M subsidy plus £400K fees for Valley,I am the first to agree Gerald is far better, but could be improved. There is no need for a little used Premier class, an all standard with buffet is that is required to shift people. But the writing is on the wall, ATW will want another £2M minimum
plus the fares as now, anyhow the 67s are due for WAG mark two from December 2011, the same month Geralds contract ends.It is also a total waste of stock idling in Cardiff for six hours.

Surprising how WAGAIR is disliked by all parties, even Plaid members voted against it.


Bob

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

by "normal people" I mean the kind of people who pay for their own tickets, not those on state junkets)

.couldn't let this one go! Not all people employed by the state are on 'junkets' - I very much welcomed WAG1 when it was introduced, it saved me having to drive down to Cardiff the night before a meeting, with the consequent expenses for an overnight stay and petrol (I retired at the end of last year, worked as a nurse in NHS) - I always sourced the cheapest return fare as most of my meetings were known well in advance and this cost was approx 15% of my previous expenses, so on the 15 plus occasions that I used the service I saved a tidy enough sum - and WAG helpfully put the time of the meeting back to 10h30 so us notherners wouldn't be late, so this service was not solely to benefit AMs and Councillors.......of course I did used to see councillors from a well known unitary Authority in the extreme North-west of Wales stepping into the first-class accomodation for the return journey, but I reiterate, not all state employess were or are on junkets! (on my last journey I had a breakfast on the way down, very nice it was too - and I paid for it myself)

 

[jones_bangor]

There is no need for a little used Premier class, an all standard with buffet is that is required to shift people. But the writing is on the wall, ATW will want another £2M minimum
plus the fares as now, anyhow the 67s are due for WAG mark two from December 2011, the same month Geralds contract ends.It is also a total waste of stock idling in Cardiff for six hours.

I'm sure Gerald will live on, whoever wins in May, there are Labour AMs in North Wales too!!

I agree about "Premier Class" - extravagant, I'd get hold of a Mk2 First coach, lower the first fares accordingly, and just put a trolley on the service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

WAG Civil Servants cant claim 1st class travel anymore or the cost of lunch. If traveling before 0630 can claim for breakfast. However if they board a train at 0631 then travel for 3/4 hours from North to South anything bought is on their own dollar. 94% of the Senior Civil Servants have office space in Cardiff itself so your unlikely to see many high earners on Gerald or god forbid a 150 on a Cardiff to Holyhead turn.

The real leakage is of course with the mileage claimers (now 45p a mile) who drive everywhere 1 per car if they can get away with it.

The company that have the WAGAIR contract also have a dodgy safety record- one of theirs that cam down in Cork recently without proper qualified commercial pilots on board apparently. WAGAIR could end spectacularly!

 

[merlodlliw]

by "normal people" I mean the kind of people who pay for their own tickets, not those on state junkets)

.couldn't let this one go! Not all people employed by the state are on 'junkets' - I very much welcomed WAG1 when it was introduced, it saved me having to drive down to Cardiff the night before a meeting, with the consequent expenses for an overnight stay and petrol (I retired at the end of last year, worked as a nurse in NHS) - I always sourced the cheapest return fare as most of my meetings were known well in advance and this cost was approx 15% of my previous expenses, so on the 15 plus occasions that I used the service I saved a tidy enough sum - and WAG helpfully put the time of the meeting back to 10h30 so us notherners wouldn't be late, so this service was not solely to benefit AMs and Councillors.......of course I did used to see councillors from a well known unitary Authority in the extreme North-west of Wales stepping into the first-class accomodation for the return journey, but I reiterate, not all state employess were or are on junkets! (on my last journey I had a breakfast on the way down, very nice it was too - and I paid for it myself)

Of course you are the exception, you were on WAG business with the NHS & I presume your fare was paid, You probably did save WAG.NHS paying your
Hotel & mileage costs, you used Gerald for WAG business fine, Someone like yourself going to Cardiff on WAG business & paying for your own food is very commendable. However in my opinion there is no requirement for a Premier Service, all that is required is a buffet.
And yes Those Cllrs from Anglesey on junkets are the reason why the Commissioners were sent in. I find it difficult to comprehend certain of those Cllrs from Anglesey have been claiming over £30K in allowances PA for years
My opinion of course. But well done, My years of Cardiff trips from Wrexham were spent on a DMU.

My opinion of course


Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure Gerald will live on, whoever wins in May, there are Labour AMs in North Wales too!!

I agree about "Premier Class" - extravagant, I'd get hold of a Mk2 First coach, lower the first fares accordingly, and just put a trolley on the service.

Of course Labour A.Ms are the majority in North East Wales, we will see what the new Minister decides & if he can afford to run the Premier Class for the
elite.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WAG Civil Servants cant claim 1st class travel anymore or the cost of lunch. If traveling before 0630 can claim for breakfast. However if they board a train at 0631 then travel for 3/4 hours from North to South anything bought is on their own dollar. 94% of the Senior Civil Servants have office space in Cardiff itself so your unlikely to see many high earners on Gerald or god forbid a 150 on a Cardiff to Holyhead turn.

The real leakage is of course with the mileage claimers (now 45p a mile) who drive everywhere 1 per car if they can get away with it.

The company that have the WAGAIR contract also have a dodgy safety record- one of theirs that cam down in Cork recently without proper qualified commercial pilots on board apparently. WAGAIR could end spectacularly!

Interesting point about the Company flying Wagair you mention, The Ministers friends on Anglesey County Council have also ended spectacularly,now the Commissioners have been sent in to sort out their inner dealings, must of us know WAGAIR was put on for them, to save them hours of luxury travel on Gerald.

Bob

 

[the-gog]

Coming back to the Cambrian, and the Welshpool to Fron Jct double track, I was given some gen today that the Down line was nearly used this afternoon by a passenger train, possibly its first use? However, it wasn't used in the end due to a points failure at Welshpool.

 

[SignalEngineer]

Coming back to the Cambrian, and the Welshpool to Fron Jct double track, I was given some gen today that the Down line was nearly used this afternoon by a passenger train, possibly its first use? However, it wasn't used in the end due to a points failure at Welshpool.

It has been used a number of times (at least twice) during driver training and first week of operation (to pass trains). It was to be used to pass trains today when the points failure occurred at Fron Junction (the Western end of the loop) resulting in significant delays as trains were already in the loop.

Apparently it was due to ballast being stuck in the switch blades and fault was cleared late afternoon.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It has been used a number of times (at least twice) during driver training and first week of operation (to pass trains). It was to be used to pass trains today when the points failure occurred at Fron Junction (the Western end of the loop) resulting in significant delays as trains were already in the loop.

Apparently it was due to ballast being stuck in the switch blades and fault was cleared late afternoon.

There was some late running and grossly overcrowded 2 car formations instead of the usual 4 cars with passengers being left at stations- unsure of reason why.

 

[merlodlliw]

There was some late running and grossly overcrowded 2 car formations instead of the usual 4 cars with passengers being left at stations- unsure of reason why.

One sees the good side of ATW last Friday,four days later we have the other side of ATW, this needs sorting fast, the passengers have suffered enough.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

One sees the good side of ATW last Friday,four days later we have the other side of ATW, this needs sorting fast, the passengers have suffered enough.

Bob

Bob

0927 off Shrewsbury is diagrammed 2 car mid week people left behind all this week as cant physically get on. Holiday, sun, coast = rising demand (not included in franchise agreement). We warned and warned SRA et all in 03 that they dropped the ball but they said they had a clever model that said rail use was going into decline.....

 

[seagull]

Gareth is right, there have been people left behind (or chose not to travel) at various stations this week, not just for the 09.27 Salop-Aber, but the 09.30 Aber-Salop when it was a 2-car vice 4-car, and the 11.00 Mach-Pwllheli almost every day.

That's part of the problem even an hourly service Salop-Aber won't solve: the issue of overcrowding on the coast services Mach-Pwllheli in school holidays and when the sun's out. There's been reports of groups of up to 70-80 teenagers travelling on a day return from Telford/Wellington to Aberdovey/Barmouth all last week and this week on the first couple of down trains - which then creates a problem on the 18.07 Mach-Salop which is booked a 2-car and suddenly finds itself full and standing with the groups returning home.

Needs some time and effort spent by those in charge at ATW to study the figures and problems and come up with creative solutions. Not made easier by now having the Cambrian open only to 158 units fitted with ERTMS!

 

[merlodlliw]

Bob

0927 off Shrewsbury is diagrammed 2 car mid week people left behind all this week as cant physically get on. Holiday, sun, coast = rising demand (not included in franchise agreement). We warned and warned SRA et all in 03 that they dropped the ball but they said they had a clever model that said rail use was going into decline.....

The problem is the same at Rhyl, 2 car in January to Picc, 2 car in July, no one seems to care anymore, as ATW run the service, they have to take the blame,
if 70 to 80 tickets are sold at one station & reservations made, bells should start ringing.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

The problem is the same at Rhyl, 2 car in January to Picc, 2 car in July, no one seems to care anymore, as ATW run the service, they have to take the blame,
if 70 to 80 tickets are sold at one station & reservations made, bells should start ringing.

Bob

How far does this actual register though? We all know the poor guard cant issue tickets as they cant move and those that don't travel that day and then tell friends/family that don't travel at a later stage don't register either. The spreadsheet at the managers meeting only tells a part story..

 

[tbtc]

The problem is the same at Rhyl, 2 car in January to Picc, 2 car in July, no one seems to care anymore, as ATW run the service, they have to take the blame,
if 70 to 80 tickets are sold at one station & reservations made, bells should start ringing.

Bob

Where is the stock that ATW can find for a few busy summer days?