Welsh Assembly Government still planning Cambrian hourly for 2011

[merlodlliw]

Judging by the number of passengers that stay on for Holyhead after Bangor, maybe terminate at Bangor! Bring platform 3 (or 4?) back into use and put a 153 on as a stopper.



Time for Network Rail to demonstrate their "can do" side to WAG me thinks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


How many 100's of millions on the Heads of the Valleys road, and here we are arguing over the crumbs!!

Network rail, like ATW, wont do anything for nothing,I don't think the question was ever asked properly could 67s run on the Marches.

In my opinion expensive crumbs, I can not think of any other rail service in the UK that is allowed to keep all the fares & get £2M subsidy to carry fresh air in first class, yet such things as extra capacity on busy lines are ignored.Also in my opinion an extra 158 service on the Cambrian is in far greater need than the 175 extra service Holyhead to Cardiff.
By all means put on extra rail services where urgently required.We have the timetable from May showing two 175 departures Holyhead to Cardiff within 20 minutes of each other around 0800, in Wrexham the Up hourly service will have three Cardiff's running one after another.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd tend to disagree with that. There's the neccesary loop at Llandudno, but current diagrams shuttle between Llandudno and the Junction during their turnaround: not feasible with a loco runaround. Plus there's the intention to extend more of the services through to Manchester Airport, which I don't think has loops.

I'd suggest Holyhead-Cardiff instead, as each end can deal with locos easily. Five rakes could take over most the diagrams, (if my ad-hoc mental timetabling is correct) leaving a few early/late services in the hands of 175s for positioning moves to and from Chester.

Running a bit further with this, the Gerallt Gymro rake could even pitch in and help out. Just detach the Mk3 buffet car when the morning service arrives, let the rake go off on another turn, and put the Mk3 on whichever rake for the evening return instead. The WAG could choose to extend their First Class offering by buying more buffet cars, rather than trying to acquire and path in a new train every time.

The free 175s could, of course, cascade to services in South Wales or strengthen existing services as appropriate. Downsides I forsee are a potentially increased journey time due to linespeed restrictions in the Marches, and platform length at some stations (some could be served by other trains instead).

There are proposals for a fourth hard rail platform at Manchester Airport but because space is limited, it will have to be at the far end of the current platforms with a footbridge connection. There are no loops there at present. There is also space to be found to site the planned terminal platform(s) of the expanded Metrolink system that is due to reach the airport in 2016.There were south bound services originally scheduled to reach Manchester Airport that were discontinued using the Wilmslow and Styal lines via the new south facing junction to the airport and there is no reason why the proposed Llandudno to Manchester Airport service could not reach the airport via Chester, Crewe and Wilmslow, which would take pressure of the paths availability through the through running lines at Manchester Piccadilly. once this new fourth platform has been constructed.

I know the first train to Llandudno leaves, not from Piccadilly, but from Manchester Airport, at some ungodly early hour of the morning, but I suppose this runs to convey passengers from Manchester Airport to stations to Llandudno who arrive from their destinations at even more earlier ungodly hours of the morning!!!!!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or add to this one, but here goes:

I was thinking about the issues with the Cambrian steam service and ERTMS and a idea hit me for how to provide the Cambrian hourly service (with the extras only going from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury, and some here have suggested):

Network Rail have 4 heavily refurbished, ERTMS fitted, class 37s, which don't seem to be used much. Arriva own a bunch of Mark 2 coaches, some of which are not used. I think Aberystwyth has a run-round facility and I doubt there'd be any problems at the Shrewsbury end either. My sugesstion: use the 37s and mark 2s on Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury services.​

Has anyone suggested this before?

There's one question, how many diagrams would you need to make a 2-hourly Aber-Y - Shrewsbury service (and would the stock listed be enough)? There's also the problem of the mark2s then not being available for my previous idea of 6 push-pull rakes with DBSOs to displace 158s.

 

[Greenback]

Just a few questions!

How much longer will journey times be with a LHCS?

How will longer timings affect the timetable in terms of passing loops?

Who will pay for the additional running costs involved?

How long will it take to run round, assuming that top and tail is not used?

 

[tirphil]

No. No one has suggested that and at face value it seems a reasonable idea. There are run round facilities at Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury terminations could run to Coton Hill to run round and stable for the next down working. I believe a few of the drivers at Mach have signed 37's in the past and so would only need a refresher possibly and I know that there is an ex DB Schenker driver there so he may well sign 37's.

 

[Greenback]

Who will pay for the training?

ATW will see no need to pay for anything they don't have to!

 

[matt]

Only three of the four class 97s currently have ertms. They are there to be used by any toc that runs a train over the cambrian. If atw use them all then this could not happen.

 

[SignalEngineer]

Just a few questions!

How much longer will journey times be with a LHCS?

How will longer timings affect the timetable in terms of passing loops?

Who will pay for the additional running costs involved?

How long will it take to run round, assuming that top and tail is not used?

Under the current timetable it takes 4 hours for a return journey with very tight (less than 10 mins) turn-arounds at both Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth.

The class 37(97) is unlikely to be able to maintain the timetable for the following reasons:
1) Very poor acceleration and breaking compared with Class 158
2) More restrictive speed restrictions for Class 37(97) over locally monitored level crossings (AOCL,ABCL). These are crossings where the driver has to check white light (to confirm crossing has operated correctly) and also that no car is stuck in the middle of the crossing. With the poorer breaking characteristics the approach speeds are much lower. There are at least 4 such crossings between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth.
3) There are certain bridges (especially between Machynlleth and Aberystwyth) that have 25kph speed restrictions for Class 97.
4) The turnaround at Aberystwyth is only about 10 mins (less on public timetable). To perform the run-round move will require operation of 2 ground frames (one at each end), and shunting over 500m along the siding.

As far as I know, during testing it was not possible to run from Dovey Junction to Aberystwyth in less than 30 mins (and that was with train not stopping at Borth).


I have heard that one option if ATW were given money to run these services is they would just run 2 car formations from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth (so increase in frequency but not in number of seats).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Under the current timetable it takes 4 hours for a return journey with very tight (less than 10 mins) turn-arounds at both Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth.

The class 37(97) is unlikely to be able to maintain the timetable for the following reasons:
1) Very poor acceleration and breaking compared with Class 158
2) More restrictive speed restrictions for Class 37(97) over locally monitored level crossings (AOCL,ABCL). These are crossings where the driver has to check white light (to confirm crossing has operated correctly) and also that no car is stuck in the middle of the crossing. With the poorer breaking characteristics the approach speeds are much lower. There are at least 4 such crossings between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth.
3) There are certain bridges (especially between Machynlleth and Aberystwyth) that have 25kph speed restrictions for Class 97.
4) The turnaround at Aberystwyth is only about 10 mins (less on public timetable). To perform the run-round move will require operation of 2 ground frames (one at each end), and shunting over 500m along the siding.

As far as I know, during testing it was not possible to run from Dovey Junction to Aberystwyth in less than 30 mins (and that was with train not stopping at Borth).


I have heard that one option if ATW were given money to run these services is they would just run 2 car formations from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth (so increase in frequency but not in number of seats).

WAG issued an invite to tender for the Newtown Bypass yesterday £60-£80 million. We put an FOI in to WAG a while back and apart from a generic ball park cost in 2007 WAG have not costed up anything specific with ATW regarding the Cambrian.

LHCS would not be able to run hourly fixed interval service unless you had 5 sets all just doing Aber to Salop.

 

[The Planner]

Not a chance of it happening, as mentioned before loco hauled have some really nasty restrictions on them as low as 10mph/16kph, especially at Dovey. Also, due to their braking characteristics, junctions margins at the loops are lot higher for locos. You would never make it work.

 

[Greenback]

I thought not, glad to see some confirmation from an expert!

 

[merlodlliw]

I agree with Greenback, ATW wont do anything unless some one else pays,
It is sad news we will not have a direct Minister for transport in this Assembly, about to be renamed Welsh Government I heard today.

It is therefore encouraging as of yesterday we have an opposition shadow Minister for transport & railways, at least this is better news as to the importance of transport in Wales. he is Byron Davies AM the Shadow Minister for Transport and Rail.

Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

I agree with Greenback, ATW wont do anything unless some one else pays,
It is sad news we will not have a direct Minister for transport in this Assembly, about to be renamed Welsh Government I heard today.

It is therefore encouraging as of yesterday we have an opposition shadow Minister for transport & railways, at least this is better news as to the importance of transport in Wales. he is Byron Davies AM the Shadow Minister for Transport and Rail.

Bob

Based on what you just said, would he be Byron Davies WM (ie. Welsh Minister, not Assembly Minister)? Wiki suggests he was standing for the South Wales West region, which seems to be the bit that is most directly affected by his Westminister colleagues' desision to cut back electrification to Cardiff rather than go all the way to Swansea. Oh wait... this isn't the how will the election results effect transport thread....

On my suggestion, the current 158s would work the current services as is, the LHCS would provide the extra 2-hourly service. I thought the tight turn-rounds might be to do with going to Birmingham, hence only suggesting Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth for the extras. However I had no idea the 37s would have to run to speed restrictions so much slower than 158s, so sadly it doesn't look like my suggestion would be any help. I take it that everyone's veiw here is the new government has no, or very little, interest in making good on their previous coalition's broken promise of an hourly service by 2011. Shame.:cry:

 

[Greenback]

It is a shame, and the indications so far are that transport will not have a profile. It may be political, as many of the previous policies and promises appear to have been driven by Plaid Cymru, who are traditionally more focused on the rural areas compared to Labour, whose heartlands are the former industrial areas.

But who knows?! We will have to wait and see...

 

[krus_aragon]

Based on what you just said, would he be Byron Davies WM (ie. Welsh Minister, not Assembly Minister)?

No, they're all still AMs, it's just the Welsh Assembly Government that wants to be called the Welsh Government now.

 

[merlodlliw]

No, they're all still AMs, it's just the Welsh Assembly Government that wants to be called the Welsh Government now.

Correct, makes it sound more important in Politicians minds.


Bob

 

[Beveridges]

The class 37(97) is unlikely to be able to maintain the timetable for the following reasons:
1) Very poor acceleration and breaking compared with Class 158

Poorer acceleration?? That suprises me as a 97 has far more BHP than a 158 even as opposed to a 158 with four coaches (as four 158 cars working in multiple) the LHCS would have 450HP per coach as opposed to a 158 with 350HP (?) per coach. Although with 97's being built for freight they might be slower, I don't know, but the I thought the line speeds on the Cambrian were never that fast anyway for acceleration to matter much?

Anyway wouldn't it be great if ATW used 97's for the hourly service? I'd be happy enough to get the job with 158's, but it would be my dream job if I got to drive 97's. Currently I drive Units in a depot on permanent nights at 5mph.

I've given up hope on the hourly service at all now anyway and have proceeded to applying for other opportunities to get into the Driving grade. I'm already a Depot Driver but just have never been able to make that move to the mainline and thought this was my chance with the ATW hourly service. ATW shouldn't have advertised a job that did not exist and didn't really have much chance of existing really looking at it.

 

[merlodlliw]

Poorer acceleration?? That suprises me as a 97 has far more BHP than a 158 even as opposed to a 158 with four coaches (as four 158 cars working in multiple) the LHCS would have 450HP per coach as opposed to a 158 with 350HP (?) per coach. Although with 97's being built for freight they might be slower, I don't know, but the I thought the line speeds on the Cambrian were never that fast anyway for acceleration to matter much?

Anyway wouldn't it be great if ATW used 97's for the hourly service? I'd be happy enough to get the job with 158's, but it would be my dream job if I got to drive 97's. Currently I drive Units in a depot on permanent nights at 5mph.

I've given up hope on the hourly service at all now anyway and have proceeded to applying for other opportunities to get into the Driving grade. I'm already a Depot Driver but just have never been able to make that move to the mainline and thought this was my chance with the ATW hourly service. ATW shouldn't have advertised a job that did not exist and didn't really have much chance of existing really looking at it.

I presume you are at the 158 service garage, I agree it was wrong for ATW to advertise for drivers before any funding was on the table from WAG,some at
ATW HQ never learn & presume funding/subsidy streams are never ending.

 

[1V53]

Not sure of all the politics etc but I do know there are times when jobs are advertised as early as possible because training timescales mean if they wait for all the i's to be dotted and t's to be crossed they'd be starting a service 2-3 months later with no staff.

An example: Despite starting the recruitment process for the new WAG service before all the formalities were in place, one depot will still have staff in training till September, with the service starting tomorrow....

 

[sburnley]

In a post in the infrastructure section I asked about line speeds and one of the responses said that the Wolverhampton Shrewsbury line speed enhancements were nearly complete.
So presumably then, the timetables will have to be changed. As I cannot see that happening before December, does that mean that the hourly service stands no chance of being implemented before then?
From my own personal point of view, I don't think that an hourly service is needed all day. As has been mentioned elsewhere there ought to be better connections with the WAG express on an evening, and I'd like to see something like a 0700 departure from Welshpool to enable connection with the 0740/0750 services to Chester or Crewe.
Would there be any merit in having an early morning shuttle starting from Machynlleth or even Newtown to fill in the gap after the 0640 from Welshpool to Shrewsbury? No doubt there would be the perennial problem of finding both traction and driver(s) for such a a move.

 

[The Planner]

So presumably then, the timetables will have to be changed. As I cannot see that happening before December, does that mean that the hourly service stands no chance of being implemented before

No the timetables wouldnt be changed. Trains would arrive at Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton early and wait time until such a point that the timetable could be changed, which considering next years tt lasts for a year wouldnt be soon. As for the hourly, Wolves Salop has no bearing on it, the gap fillers wont go past Shrewsbury anyway.

 

[1V53]

It would also be pointless starting a journey from Newtown as any unit would have to come from Mach anyway (Mach and Pwllheli are the only drivers trained on the route and on ERTMS level 2)

The hourly service I believe was planned to run smaller trains more frequently so it is hard to quantify demand.

 

[merlodlliw]

In a post in the infrastructure section I asked about line speeds and one of the responses said that the Wolverhampton Shrewsbury line speed enhancements were nearly complete.
So presumably then, the timetables will have to be changed. As I cannot see that happening before December, does that mean that the hourly service stands no chance of being implemented before then?
From my own personal point of view, I don't think that an hourly service is needed all day. As has been mentioned elsewhere there ought to be better connections with the WAG express on an evening, and I'd like to see something like a 0700 departure from Welshpool to enable connection with the 0740/0750 services to Chester or Crewe.
Would there be any merit in having an early morning shuttle starting from Machynlleth or even Newtown to fill in the gap after the 0640 from Welshpool to Shrewsbury? No doubt there would be the perennial problem of finding both traction and driver(s) for such a a move.

Gareth Marston will know chapter & verse, but I am aware no funding for the service is even on the table & with the new WAG putting transport/rail as low priority for Ministerial positions, it is mine & others opinion no funding will even be contemplated this year, any surplus funds went on the West Wales WAG DMU to Fishguard, which politics wise backfired on the previous Minister.
Who knows with a different shade of Politics in Montgomery the new AM & MP may give the hourly service better support for funding.

Bob

 

[Squaddie]

...any surplus funds went on the West Wales WAG DMU to Fishguard, which politics wise backfired on the previous Minister.

Why do you refer to this (proposed?) service as "the West Wales WAG DMU"? And how did it backfire on the previous minister?

Sorry if I appear thick, but I'm not as familiar with the intricacies of Welsh politics as others on this forum.

 

[krus_aragon]

Why do you refer to this (proposed?) service as "the West Wales WAG DMU"? And how did it backfire on the previous minister?

This service was announced by the then Transport Minister roughly a month before the recent elections. Some people observed that it was a pre-election present from Plaid Cymru. Given that Plaid didn't gain any seats in that neck of the woods (and just lost nearby Llanelli) it wasn't an effective enough present. I don't know whether it actually 'backfired' and making the situation worse, but that probably can't be proved one way or the other.

As for the 'West Wales WAG' name, I haven't come across it before. It may be one that Merlodlliw has coined, or was used in a newspaper that I haven't read.

 

[Beveridges]

I presume you are at the 158 service garage

I do Maintenance Depot Driving for Trans Pennine Express but was looking to relocate for this role as the mainline is where I always wanted to get after years of slowly shunting up and down sidings at 5mph on permanent nights

 

[the-gog]

I had this tweet in Welsh from Elin Jones, the Plaid Cymru AM, this evening: "The work has been done to permit passing places (loops) and Ieuan Wyn Jones put money in the budget to finance hourly trains, this year."

 

[1V53]

The big problem now will be getting enough staff in place by December, that's even assuming the stock is being found from existing resources.

 

[merlodlliw]

PRESS RELEASE Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth Rail Passenger Association

(SARPA) (1).



Mobile:

E-mail:


21 June 2011

RAIL USERS IN MID WALES URGE WELSH GOVERNMENT TRANSPORT MINISTER TO GO FOR QUICK WIN.



Rail Users in Mid Wales and Shropshire are urging the new Welsh Government Minister with responsibility for transport- Carl Sergeant AM- to prioritise implementing additional services on the Cambrian line when he announces his review of the National Transport Plan (2). Network Rail have recently completed the installation of new signalling system and a package of infrastructure enhancements worth £13 Million including increased line capacity to allow additional train to run on the Cambrian line.



Rail Users are hoping that the Welsh Government completes the job it started in 2008 when it announced a contribution of £ 8 million to the scheme (3). The capital element is now complete and revenue funding to implement additional services on the line will be relatively straightforward to achieve in a short timescale compared to the plethora of competing transport schemes that haven’t even been started vying for attention on the Ministers desk.



SARPA Chairman Gareth Marston said “Were not asking for multi million pound capital spend taking years to complete just that the existing spend on capital is utilised to the benefit of the Mid Wales economy and not left underutilised”.



The enhanced line capacity means that extra services can now be run that will address long standing timetable weaknesses. Commuting opportunities into the regional centres of Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth for employment and education opportunities are currently hamstrung by inconvenient arrival times from the Cambrian or non existent connections in the evening (4). Whilst the lines traffic has consistently grown at rates greater than officially predicted this traffic is predominantly leisure in nature and many who would use the railway at a time of ever increasing petrol costs are denied the opportunity.



Commenting on a call to implement a study into more services SARPA Chairman Gareth Marston said “Why? – There’s already been £16 million of infrastructure enhancement spend on our line that has little point to it if it were not to be used to help run extra services. The reinstated crossing loop at Dyfi Junction and the reinstated dynamic loop at Welshpool are only of any use in running more trains than the 8 a day currently seen. Why build them and then procrastinate about using them? It’s not as though expensive long winded studies are an essential pre requisite to running more trains. The Welsh Governments recent announcements regarding funding extra trains to Fishguard (5) and a second premier North to South Express (6) dispel that notion. Let’s get on with the job”.





(ends)

 

[Greenback]

Gareth is, of course, quite correct. There is absolutely no need for more long winded and expensive studies. We seem to be obsessed with such things in this country.