Welsh Bi-Lingual Signs

[Spartacus]

As already mentioned above somewhere...…… if you come to a road sign, in both languages, if you are Welsh and going to Llanelwy (St Asaph) you turn right and ignore the rest of the sign. If you are English you see St Asaph which is where you know you need to be and follow that and ignore the rest of the sign.

I really don't get the issue? It is only the same as an English sign going to more than one location, you see your location and ignore the rest.

Last night the Chinese Menu in the restaurant was in Cantonese and English, I had so much trouble reading the Menu because the two languages confused me no end......oh wait, it didn't at all!!

Welsh signs are here to stay and quite rightly too. It really isn't that difficult. If you can't select relevant information from a clear road sign, I don't think it's the signage that's the problem

A simple T-junction one like that is no issue, a roundabout at he end of a dual carriageway with a lorry up your backside giving you no time to take your time is an issue, you’ve gotta work your way around the wheel to find your destination - and if they have similar starting names in both languages that’s no quick process.

Yes it can be the same at junctions with many destinations with one language, but when there’s two languages there is a simple way to simplify things, as they do in Ireland, without any need to drop any text in either language. You’re partly making my point for me with your menu example as they won’t both be in the same script, I bet.

This thread is getting quite rediculous, I, and few others, have any problem with Welsh being on there, but that signage could be simpler, which keeps bringing the retort to the effect that anyone who doesn’t think it could be simpler must be dumb.

 

[mmh]

A simple T-junction one like that is no issue, a roundabout at he end of a dual carriageway with a lorry up your backside giving you no time to take your time is an issue, you’ve gotta work your way around the wheel to find your destination - and if they have similar starting names in both languages that’s no quick process.

Yes it can be the same at junctions with many destinations with one language, but when there’s two languages there is a simple way to simplify things, as they do in Ireland, without any need to drop any text in either language. You’re partly making my point for me with your menu example as they won’t both be in the same script, I bet.

I disagree that using different typefaces or colours simplifies things, it creates visual "mess" and things to look out for which don't need to be there. Ireland seems to have multiple styles of doing it, including English in capitals with Gaelic in italic lower case, sometimes in a stylised "celtic" type, or English in one colour and Gaelic another. I've not been to the Scottish highlands for a few years, but I seem to remember there it was uniformly the standard lowercase typeface in different colours.

Neither "solution" is ideal though. A lot of research went into designing the roadsign typeface in the 60s, and they found uniformity was good and lowercase was easier to interpret quickly, and that's why we've used that ever since.

Apart from the practical and safety aspects, I wouldn't want to be the person who decides which language gets the more prominent typeface or colour!

It's really a non-issue. There are countless road signs in England with many placenames on them.

 

[krus_aragon]

Neither "solution" is ideal though. A lot of research went into designing the roadsign typeface in the 60s, and they found uniformity was good and lowercase was easier to interpret quickly, and that's why we've used that ever since.

I know some fine research was done for our current road-sign typefaces, but did the research in the 60s give much consideration to bilingual signage? I think the Worboys Committee must have referred to it passingly, as the resulting TSRGD were first published in 1965, and it apparently allowed bilingual road signs "by special authorisation".

 

[Llanigraham]

It's really a non-issue. There are countless road signs in England with many placenames on them.

Quite!!
But there is an element of people on here who always criticise multilingual signage, especially when Welsh is included.

 

[Parallel]

The signage has now been changed at Radyr. Both the English and Welsh are now black, rather than one being grey! I do have a picture but am unable to upload at the moment.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Once you've got the information you want from a direction sign you stop reading it. For signs with sentences on them you don't try to read the bit in a language you don't understand.

well as a non- Welsh speaker living in Wales I can catagorically state that when following directions I always read the Welsh... so approaching a roundabout I arafwch nawr.. when on my way into a strange place I follow the signs for canol y dref/ ddinas etc.

 

[mmh]

well as a non- Welsh speaker living in Wales I can catagorically state that when following directions I always read the Welsh... so approaching a roundabout I arafwch nawr.. when on my way into a strange place I follow the signs for canol y dref/ ddinas etc.

Thank you for proving my point! You don't _read_ them, you recognise them at a glance, surely? You don't need to think about translating canol, tref or dinas because you've seen them before and you know what they mean.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Thank you for proving my point! You don't _read_ them, you recognise them at a glance, surely? You don't need to think about translating canol, tref or dinas because you've seen them before and you know what they mean.

no you're wrong... I do actually read the Welsh, and comprehend what I am reading... I just completely and utterly ignore the English!

As an aside for all those poor souls that struggle to cope with bilingual signs... first of all you need to work out if you're in a Welsh or English speaking part of Wales.... once you've done that it's easy to read the signs... if it's a Welsh speaking area then Welsh will come first on the sign.. if an English speaking area then the English comes first..... Simples

 

[farleigh]

Thank you for proving my point! You don't _read_ them, you recognise them at a glance, surely? You don't need to think about translating canol, tref or dinas because you've seen them before and you know what they mean.

You are totally incorrect. We read and process the meaning of a sign. It is not simple pattern recognition.

 

[PR1Berske]

You are totally incorrect. We read and process the meaning of a sign. It is not simple pattern recognition.

Not sure that's true. Large white lettering on the road surface reading ARAF is as common a sight as the English SLOW. If you know to recognise the shapes of the letters S L O W in the distinctive capital letters and what that mean, you're likely to recognise A R A F too.

 

[Envoy]

no you're wrong... I do actually read the Welsh, and comprehend what I am reading... I just completely and utterly ignore the English!

As an aside for all those poor souls that struggle to cope with bilingual signs... first of all you need to work out if you're in a Welsh or English speaking part of Wales.... once you've done that it's easy to read the signs... if it's a Welsh speaking area then Welsh will come first on the sign.. if an English speaking area then the English comes first..... Simples

This used to be the situation but more recently the policy has changed to Welsh first on all signage. So, they are now going to the additional expense of changing all the bilingual signs in the predominently English speaking parts of Wales to put the Welsh first. Even on the M4 going around Newport, large (& costly) electronic signs have gone up with the first being in Welsh only -and drive a bit further for one in English. What kind of a message does this send out to people that the international language of the world - that is spoken by just about everyone in Wales, has to come second to the Welsh language - spoken by only around 18% of the people in Wales? (Same situation on the railways).

If someone saw a road sign indicating the way to Abertawe and Swansea, some people might assume that Abertawe is another town and not realise that it was Welsh for the City of Swansea. That is why a different kind of script or colour should be used to make it quicker and easier to identify the two languages.

 

[gswindale]

If someone saw a road sign indicating the way to Abertawe and Swansea, some people might assume that Abertawe is another town and not realise that it was Welsh for the City of Swansea. That is why a different kind of script or colour should be used to make it quicker and easier to identify the two languages.

But both Abertawe and Swansea will be sign posted in the same direction. Therefore not a problem.

Having travelled through the UK reasonably extensively over almost 40 years, it is not a problem! I particularly like the fact that every "slow" painted in the road was put there by a nice chap called "Araf".

Worse is travelling in the Channel Islands where non standard signs are used. That is trickier than learning to spot English on a bi-lingual sign.

 

[Llanigraham]

This used to be the situation but more recently the policy has changed to Welsh first on all signage. So, they are now going to the additional expense of changing all the bilingual signs in the predominently English speaking parts of Wales to put the Welsh first. Even on the M4 going around Newport, large (& costly) electronic signs have gone up with the first being in Welsh only -and drive a bit further for one in English. What kind of a message does this send out to people that the international language of the world - that is spoken by just about everyone in Wales, has to come second to the Welsh language - spoken by only around 18% of the people in Wales? (Same situation on the railways).

If someone saw a road sign indicating the way to Abertawe and Swansea, some people might assume that Abertawe is another town and not realise that it was Welsh for the City of Swansea. That is why a different kind of script or colour should be used to make it quicker and easier to identify the two languages.

More incorrect facts!
The electronic signage on the M4 is at the same distance as that in england and all of the signs can show english or Welsh wording, depending on what is input at the control room computer terminal.
And again you have made the (huge) presumption that people think that because there are 2 names on a sign they think it is 2 places. I have never heard that said by any person visiting Wales, and there are plenty of members here who have stated the same. Methnks you are making excuses.

 

[John Luxton]

I live on Merseyside within 40 minutes drive from the Welsh border. Liverpool was once considered the capital of North Wales, the National Eisteddfod has been held here in the early 20th Century.

Much of my leisure time is spent in Wales from various locations from north to south.

Whilst I cannot speak Welsh I have over the years from various signs learnt quite a lot of words and Welsh place names, I am also aware of correct pronunciations. I find myself watching more S4C which is receivable here and with subtitles on am learning even more and I can now follow some dialogue.

One day I would like to learn to speak the language. I have no problems in Welsh signage it is part of Welsh culture, part of the pleasure of visiting.

I have often wondered why locations in England close to the Welsh border have not started teaching Welsh as a language it's is probably going to be more useful than Spanish or French. Here on Merseyside many people visit Wales, in particular the North Wales heartland of the language frequently.

Perhaps my ideas are a bit offbeat for an Englishman? Perhaps due to something in my subconscious having had a maternal great grandfather born in Abertawe to Cornish parents from near Truro!

Must be the celt in me coming out!

John

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

What a nice post John. Exactly as it should be, don't be scared of something different. Embrace it.

 

[Western Lord]

I have often wondered why locations in England close to the Welsh border have not started teaching Welsh as a language it's is probably going to be more useful than Spanish or French. Here on Merseyside many people visit Wales, in particular the North Wales heartland of the language frequently.



John

Because if you go to France or Spain you are quite likely to encounter people who do not speak English. Your chance of finding someone in Wales who doesn't speak English is virtually nil. Being able to speak Welsh is not "useful", even to the Welsh, it is purely a cultural decision to try to preserve the language, which is all well and good, but speaking Welsh has no practical purpose whatever and never will unless the Welsh decide to stop teaching English.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Because if you go to France or Spain you are quite likely to encounter people who do not speak English. Your chance of finding someone in Wales who doesn't speak English is virtually nil. Being able to speak Welsh is not "useful", even to the Welsh, it is purely a cultural decision to try to preserve the language, which is all well and good, but speaking Welsh has no practical purpose whatever and never will unless the Welsh decide to stop teaching English.

It is not a cultural decision at all, there are many first language Welsh speakers who converse in Welsh in school at home and in their locality. English is only taught as a second language. Welsh is the language of Wales. Not a cultural thing it is our language the same as yours is English, the main reason there is so much English around is that many English people have moved to Wales and don't learn the language as they are too ignorant and think that the world should speak English. I have seen it on many occasions on holiday. English people shocked and complain that the locals don't speak English like it is a god given right for English people to travel anywhere in the world and not have to learn another language. Ignorance is what it is.

 

[WelshBluebird]

the main reason there is so much English around is that many English people have moved to Wales and don't learn the language as they are too ignorant and think that the world should speak English.

Add to that, even for those of us who are Welsh, until fairly recently it wasn't really a thing to teach your kids Welsh, largely stemming from the fact the language was literally beaten out of people in the 1800's (and for anyone unfamiliar with the history here, I am not exaggerating, children found to be speaking Welsh were literally beaten so they wouldn't do it again - which is partly why it is such an emotive issue) and many areas just either never regained that knowledge or it was lost as more immigration took place (largely for the mines etc).

 

[Western Lord]

It is not a cultural decision at all, there are many first language Welsh speakers who converse in Welsh in school at home and in their locality. English is only taught as a second language. Welsh is the language of Wales. Not a cultural thing it is our language the same as yours is English, the main reason there is so much English around is that many English people have moved to Wales and don't learn the language as they are too ignorant and think that the world should speak English. I have seen it on many occasions on holiday. English people are shocked and complain that the locals don't speak English like it is a god given right for English people to travel anywhere in the world and not have to learn another language. Ignorance is what it is.

If Welsh is the language of Wales why do only 18% of Welsh people speak it? Of course there are a few areas where Welsh is the first language, but anybody in Wales who doesn't speak English is going to be at a serious disadvantage in life. Unlike France or Spain, Wales is a country where only a minority of people actually speak the native tongue.

 

[krus_aragon]

This used to be the situation but more recently the policy has changed to Welsh first on all signage. So, they are now going to the additional expense of changing all the bilingual signs in the predominently English speaking parts of Wales to put the Welsh first.

But you won't see vans going out and replacing every sign by the end of the year: they'll be done when the signs need replacement or renewal (i.e. when you'd have to spend money on a new sign whichever part of the UK it was in).

Even on the M4 going around Newport, large (& costly) electronic signs have gone up with the first being in Welsh only -and drive a bit further for one in English.

An awkward inconsistency, but one that already existed when different counties of Wales chose which language to put first on their signs.

What kind of a message does this send out to people that the international language of the world - that is spoken by just about everyone in Wales, has to come second to the Welsh language - spoken by only around 18% of the people in Wales? (Same situation on the railways).

Perhaps that we value our national minority language?

If someone saw a road sign indicating the way to Abertawe and Swansea, some people might assume that Abertawe is another town and not realise that it was Welsh for the City of Swansea. That is why a different kind of script or colour should be used to make it quicker and easier to identify the two languages.

Your case for a differing script/colour has merit. I can't explain why it's not already done, but would be interested to learn more. I wouldn't object to such a distinction on principle, and would probably be supportive of it, having heard the input of relevant experts in signage and bilingual psychology.

 

[krus_aragon]

If Welsh is the language of Wales why do only 18% of Welsh people speak it? Of course there are a few areas where Welsh is the first language, but anybody in Wales who doesn't speak English is going to be at a serious disadvantage in life. Unlike France or Spain, Wales is a country where only a minority of people actually speak the native tongue.

Yes, Welsh is most certainly a minority language, there's no denying that.

If only 18% of the population speak the language, you could say "it's not worth putting that much effort into it, then", or you could say "we should have more speaking the language". The language is considered important by many people in Wales, and because of that there is political protection and promotion of the language. The UK Government decided to ratify the Welsh language under the European Charter for Minority Languages, with specific commitments on the protection and promotion of the language. The commitments made for Welsh are greater than, say, Cornish or Manx: this can be taken as a reflection of the number of speakers, the political sensitivity of the matter, or a number of other issues.

(Incidentally, French is recognised as a minority language in Switzerland, see here.)

 

[Phil from Mon]

Today has genuinely shocked me by some of the absolute naivety and down right almost racist and virtually dark aged views on the rights of a countries inhabitants who just want to speak their own language, in their own country and be able to have their own language printed on literature and signs.

English people with these views are the ones I hear about all the time whilst travelling, who moan about "foreigners" in their own country not speaking English to them, complaining in Muslim countries there isn't bacon for breakfast and just generally still think it is the British Empire and we rule the world. Not so and about time some people woke up and smelt the coffee

Sorry for going off topic but I needed it off my chest. I am usually a very calm person.

Terrific, sums it up in one

Continuing this more light-hearted theme:

The (road) signs that gave me and my brother a giggle when we were young were those that read: "Heavy Plant Crossing".

Nothing too funny* about that, unless you know "plant" is the Welsh for "children". I never did spot any of these obese kids at the side of the road...

(*unless you're only familiar with "plant" as in "vegetation", in which case you may want to look out for triffids.)

That was the sign opposite the Welsh Plant Breeding Station as was. Endless mirth

I live on Merseyside within 40 minutes drive from the Welsh border. Liverpool was once considered the capital of North Wales, the National Eisteddfod has been held here in the early 20th Century.

Much of my leisure time is spent in Wales from various locations from north to south.

Whilst I cannot speak Welsh I have over the years from various signs learnt quite a lot of words and Welsh place names, I am also aware of correct pronunciations. I find myself watching more S4C which is receivable here and with subtitles on am learning even more and I can now follow some dialogue.

One day I would like to learn to speak the language. I have no problems in Welsh signage it is part of Welsh culture, part of the pleasure of visiting.

I have often wondered why locations in England close to the Welsh border have not started teaching Welsh as a language it's is probably going to be more useful than Spanish or French. Here on Merseyside many people visit Wales, in particular the North Wales heartland of the language frequently.

Perhaps my ideas are a bit offbeat for an Englishman? Perhaps due to something in my subconscious having had a maternal great grandfather born in Abertawe to Cornish parents from near Truro!

Must be the celt in me coming out!

John

Where is the “like” button when you need it

 

[WAB]

Surely the simple solution is adequate spacing between the Welsh and English on signs so people can find where one ends and the other begins? And in a railway context, would continuing with the Welsh=green colour scheme be the best solution?

 

[Adsy125]

I certainly agree Welsh and English should be on signs in Wales. However for pure utility purposes having English first makes significantly more sense due to the fact only 18% of Welsh people speak it! Of course, areas where more than 50% speak Welsh should clearly have Welsh first. The example I have previously seen is that when Welsh announcements were first at Newport the train would often be gone before the English announcement, leaving most people stranded for no good reason.

 

[krus_aragon]

Surely the simple solution is adequate spacing between the Welsh and English on signs so people can find where one ends and the other begins? And in a railway context, would continuing with the Welsh=green colour scheme be the best solution?

You latter suggestion is one I agree with completely. For the spacing idea, if there's use of colour or typeface to distinguish between the two, that is enough 'conceptual' spacing without having to be excessive with the physical spacing.

(For larger blocks of text, studies show that a person who does not understand the first written language he sees will naturally scan to the next area looking for a familiar language. For this reason, it's recommended to put the minority language (Welsh) in prominence, as otherwise those fluent in the minority language will start reading the English first, and have to make a conscious effort to skip to the other language. I'm not 100% certain if this extends to names and short phrases on signs.)

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

How about this for an idea... if the English are so anti the Welsh having bilingual signs perhaps the WAG could legislate that ALL signage be in ONE language only.... the native language of Wales... Cymraeg!

 

[krus_aragon]

I certainly agree Welsh and English should be on signs in Wales. However for pure utility purposes having English first makes significantly more sense due to the fact only 18% of Welsh people speak it! Of course, areas where more than 50% speak Welsh should clearly have Welsh first. The example I have previously seen is that when Welsh announcements were first at Newport the train would often be gone before the English announcement, leaving most people stranded for no good reason.

I can see the reasoning in your argument. It largely reflects the situation with road signs in Wales until 2016, where each local Council chose which language to put first (according to local demographics and preference, presumably). But you then end up with inconsistency between areas (where the languages swap over along your journey). If we follow the 50% speakers threshold literally, you'll have some areas where the number of speakers changes over time: do we then swap the order of languages?

The policy decision made in 2016 is a political decision, and it also makes for consistency.

With regards to platform announcements, the manner in which they are currently done does need some improvement: a long announcement in a minority language before the same a majority language is not a good idea when time is of the essence. But swapping the long messages round isn't much better either.

A better approach is to give the information in smaller chunks, switching languages more frequently. (This has been suggested before on previous threads.) So instead of:

Platform 2 am y gwasanaeth 11:30 i Gaergybi, yn galw yn Prestatyn, Y Rhyl, Cyffordd Llandudno, Bangor, a Chaergybi.
Platform 2 for the 11:30 service to Holyhead, calling at Prestatyn, Rhyl, Llandudno Junction, Bangor and Holyhead.​

You could have:

Platform 2 am y gwasanaeth 11:30 i Gaergybi
Platform 2 for the 11:30 service to Holyhead

Platform 2 ar gyfer Prestatyn, Y Rhyl, Cyffordd Llandudno, Bangor, a Chaergybi
Platform 2 for Prestatyn, Rhyl, Llandudno Junction, Bangor and Holyhead​

One can hope that, with TfW having a bit more of a say in how things are run with this new franchise, they'll be able to make improvements in this regard.

 

[johnnychips]

Deleted

 

[krus_aragon]

How about this for an idea... if the English are so anti the Welsh having bilingual signs perhaps the WAG could legislate that ALL signage be in ONE language only.... the native language of Wales... Cymraeg!

This reminds me of a story (which I may have told already) of a planning application that came before a town council, for a new sign for the town's Welsh bookshop. One council member pointed that the intended sign was to be in one language only, and surely it ought to be bilingual? Unfortunately, the Welsh name of said bookshop didn't translate at all well into English, and there was a bit of an impasse. Then another councillor spoke up, saying "actually, I agree with the suggestion for a bilingual sign. And as it is a sign for a bookshop, a place of learning, might I suggest that the sign be written in Welsh and Latin?" The matter was swiftly dropped, and the original application was approved.

 

[transmanche]

This used to be the situation but more recently the policy has changed to Welsh first on all signage. So, they are now going to the additional expense of changing all the bilingual signs in the predominently English speaking parts of Wales to put the Welsh first.

No they are not. They are going to update existing signs to 'Welsh-first' as and when they become due for maintenance or replacement.