Welshpool dynamic loop

[shinkansen1966]

Last Saturday, took my first trip on the Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury. Very enjoyable and scenic. Also very rural too. In two hours, you pass through just a handful of settlements and 5 stations in two hours. I like the way trains pass each other in the middle of nowhere at Talerddig.

I also noticed works in place for the dynamic passing loop at Welshpool. On the western approach into Welshpool station, there's evidence of new ballast and track laid. Is there opening date for the loop and the introduction of an hourly service to Aberystwyth ?

 

[merlodlliw]

Last Saturday, took my first trip on the Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury. Very enjoyable and scenic. Also very rural too. In two hours, you pass through just a handful of settlements and 5 stations in two hours. I like the way trains pass each other in the middle of nowhere at Talerddig.

I also noticed works in place for the dynamic passing loop at Welshpool. On the western approach into Welshpool station, there's evidence of new ballast and track laid. Is there opening date for the loop and the introduction of an hourly service to Aberystwyth ?

The loop as been there for a few months, 2011 is the year for an hourly service according to a statement in the WAG, and of course the never ending farce of
ertms could delay it even further plus the subsidy question to run it. May 2011 (I don't think so)
http://sarpa.info

 

[moggie]

Now there's one candidate for the chop to save some much needed finance. Imagine the problems embedding this (ERTMS) on a multi-track, multi-crossing, multi user railway (in the UK of course!). No I can't - I give up.

2FC/2

 

[The Planner]

Lots of work is already being done with the intention of overlaying it on the GWML.

 

[moggie]

Yes - but not by those who will have to design and implement the stuff. I guess in NR parlance it's not got beyond GRIP3 if it's that far. I could of course be wrong but I suspect GWML have just about enough of new technology to be worrying about at present to be thinking ERTMS. Then again - boys and their toys!

 

[brianthegiant]

completion of ertms, is much awaited by us regular users of the lines as a essential prerequisite to the very long awaited hourly service. However, ertms, is about a year late already, with signalling staff at caersws now getting their contracts repeatedly extended. rumour has it there are problems with the ontrain ertms equipment not coping with the different no.s of 158s coupled together.

 

[The Planner]

ERTMS will work on 2 levels as I understand it, level 2 when its on the Cambrian and governing how the trains are driven and level 0 everywhere else. It never actually switches off. However, if the system decides not to play ball in level 0 then it can get tricky....

 

[merlodlliw]

completion of ertms, is much awaited by us regular users of the lines as a essential prerequisite to the very long awaited hourly service. However, ertms, is about a year late already, with signalling staff at caersws now getting their contracts repeatedly extended. rumour has it there are problems with the ontrain ertms equipment not coping with the different no.s of 158s coupled together.

My understanding is its over two years late, still full of bugs & £millions over budget,excuses can not go on forever by Network Rail.

 

[moggie]

NR will be OK - it'll get blamed on the contractor(s).

West Coast TCS shambles all ocver again I'm afraid - wide eyed and gormless - take your pick on who you think are the guilty partners. As I said earlier - save the money for a better rail use - it's years off a mainline application in the UK. Now - if someone from NR knows better (and I'm sure they're about) I feel sorry for the next candiate in the frame. I'll have a guess at Wilmslow.

 

[The Planner]

Somewhere in East Anglia is beiing chucked about, cant remember where, not mainline though.

 

[bluenoxid]

I thought it was the areas with RETB (I will probably be wrong) in East Anglia. Lowestoft and Cromer leap out at me.

 

[87015]

Somewhere in East Anglia is beiing chucked about, cant remember where, not mainline though.

East Suffolk vice current RETB. But they haven't decided what type of new signalling to install at all yet, be it lineside or ERTMS.

Whatever they decide they need to do it quickly as the RETB radio signal is getting turned off in 2012.

 

[moggie]

I think the issue here is that the radio frequency used is up for reallocation by the authorites which is pushing the modernisation programme. If ERTMS doesn't sort it's problems out these lines are likely to be the initial application of low cost modular signalling systems also being developed with the industry. This may be a better option as technically the systems will be low tech but probably affective. ERTMS UK development is clearly aimed at main line application with Cambrian being used as the test bed. Unfortunately - the leap from a single line with passing loop application and limited service frequency is very different from a main line application in the UK. If they can't get it to work as a system on the Cambrian they're a long way off a (succesful) main line implementation imho.

 

[Z12XE]

East Suffolk vice current RETB. But they haven't decided what type of new signalling to install at all yet, be it lineside or ERTMS.

Whatever they decide they need to do it quickly as the RETB radio signal is getting turned off in 2012.

RETB over GSM-R frequencies is being looked at as the latest possible idea.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The implementation of the hourly service is not actually wholly dependent on ERTMS. The loop at Dyfi Jnc can be integrated into the Absolute Block from Machynlleth and Welshpools dynamic loop can be slotted into RETB.

Its been possible to run a non clockface hourly service over the eastern half of the line anyway which SARPA floated back in 97. We suggested a 153 which could have started from Mach filling in the gaps in the 2 hrly service shuttling between Salop and Newtown. Instead we've had 13 yrs of procrastination and broken promises.

ATW depot at Mach is overstaffed for the current timetable with many crew having plenty of tea drinking time on shift. Following the cascade of LM 150's to FGW, ATW will have their 150's returned meaning that 158's can come off Maesteg to Chltenham turns so the units are there for the hourly service and the infrastructure including Platform 3 at Salop plus crews. We've long suspected the stumbling block has been Arriva wanting to get WAG to pay extra £ for it and WAG not realizing that ATW will not incur the level of extra cost they claim.

ERTMS will not role anywhere in the near future.

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW depot at Mach is overstaffed for the current timetable with many crew having plenty of tea drinking time on shift.(quote) Gareth M
......................................................................................................................................................................
Can of worms you opened Gareth, who are overstaffed Maintenance or drivers etc, my understanding is these ATW staff are the highest paid private sector employees in Mach and area,.

 

[Gareth Marston]

ATW depot at Mach is overstaffed for the current timetable with many crew having plenty of tea drinking time on shift.(quote) Gareth M
......................................................................................................................................................................
Can of worms you opened Gareth, who are overstaffed Maintenance or drivers etc, my understanding is these ATW staff are the highest paid private sector employees in Mach and area,.

Perhaps overstaffed is too emotive but the point I make is that the train crew particularly drivers don't have enough work with current timetable i.e two hourly service to be utilized as much as those at other depots. Theirs enough if there was an hourly service and we suspect ATW recruited in advance expecting WAG to fork out the readys some time back. Also you'll note that ATW expected to be running 2 extra trains a day to Marylebone from Aberystwyth -they had the traincrew already.

highest paid pretend private sector employees in Mach and area certainly, but that's not the fault of the individuals who work there just that drivers did very well in their pay packets out of privatisation and the lack of any quality alternatives locally. Other train depots in rural areas will be similar.
It is in no way any criticism of them but a statement of fact.

 

[merlodlliw]

Perhaps overstaffed is too emotive but the point I make is that the train crew particularly drivers don't have enough work with current timetable i.e two hourly service to be utilized as much as those at other depots. Theirs enough if there was an hourly service and we suspect ATW recruited in advance expecting WAG to fork out the readys some time back. Also you'll note that ATW expected to be running 2 extra trains a day to Marylebone from Aberystwyth -they had the traincrew already.

highest paid pretend private sector employees in Mach and area certainly, but that's not the fault of the individuals who work there just that drivers did very well in their pay packets out of privatisation and the lack of any quality alternatives locally. Other train depots in rural areas will be similar.
It is in no way any criticism of them but a statement of fact.

No problem with the pay, just that a WAG official I was speaking too was also
amazed at how many Drivers were employed at Mach,, on a rate of pay almost twice that of other locals, that was a while back
As for the extra train crew taken on for the 158 to London,well a certain person at Pentaith House got his fingers well and truly burned over that idea of his, you will know who I mean.

M

 

[Gareth Marston]

No problem with the pay, just that a WAG official I was speaking too was also
amazed at how many Drivers were employed at Mach,, on a rate of pay almost twice that of other locals, that was a while back
As for the extra train crew taken on for the 158 to London,well a certain person at Pentaith House got his fingers well and truly burned over that idea of his, you will know who I mean.

M

I suspect that certain individual will not be too happy with the chain of command once DB takeover. I wonder whether will get a press release about his departure or have to wait for the jungle drums?

 

[merlodlliw]

I suspect that certain individual will not be too happy with the chain of command once DB takeover. I wonder whether will get a press release about his departure or have to wait for the jungle drums?

On an open forum I wont say anymore, DB taking over must be ... worst nightmare.

 

[The Planner]

The implementation of the hourly service is not actually wholly dependent on ERTMS. The loop at Dyfi Jnc can be integrated into the Absolute Block from Machynlleth and Welshpools dynamic loop can be slotted into RETB.

Mac to Dovey isnt AB, its a 3 minute headway. If a train moves into the Borth or Tywyn section, then it would need a token. If Fron Jn gets slotted into RETB, then trains would need to stop for the token exchange there aswell as the dwell at Welshpool. Don't be so sure it would work...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Apologies if I got AB wrong but my source in the signaling fraternity is 100% sure the Dyfi Jnc loop could be patched into Mach signalbox control without ERTMS. Likewise Fron Jnc would be an operational quirk but I've seen units/locos roll through loops without stopping and get RETB token enough times to know you don't have to stop - 1530ex Abr did it at Talerddig yesterday. I suppose the question is over the radio reception signal at that location and having speed restriction so drivers slow down. Admittedly not ideal.
The rule book said you shouldn't swap tablets whilst a train was moving and apparatus should be used, I can remember being allowed to swap the tablets with an ecs working (successfully)that didn't stop whilst at Caersws box doing a work placement as 15 year old in 1986! It was common practice.

 

[Tomnick]

'Long section' tokens can be issued for certain sections, meaning that the train doesn't need to stop at the intermediate token exchange point. Not sure if Talerddig is one such example though. Obviously if trains are passing at that loop, then a long section token can't be issued 'through' it, and the trains will need to stop.

 

[The Planner]

Dovey to Aber is the only long section with a possible token exchange point (Borth) inbetween. Welshpool, Newtown, Talerddig, Mach, Dovey and Aber are mandatory ones. Nothing happens at Caersws apart from the LC.

Token exchanges do take place on the "fly" (well walking pace) but they have to be timetabled as a stop. The loops speeds are down to the point work, not having to make the drivers slow down. Talerddig becomes positively nose bleed worthy if and when the magical system gets switched on...

 

[Tomnick]

Thanks for confirming that; I appreciate that there might be some difference between what should happen and what does happen, but obviously the plan has to be based on the former! There seemed to be a lot more working with long section tokens on the West Highland and Far North lines; presumably that's a lot to do with intermediate TEPs approaching junctions and the terminii, as well as the relative lack of user-worked crossings?

 

[Railsigns]

Apologies if I got AB wrong but my source in the signaling fraternity is 100% sure the Dyfi Jnc loop could be patched into Mach signalbox control without ERTMS. Likewise Fron Jnc would be an operational quirk but I've seen units/locos roll through loops without stopping and get RETB token enough times to know you don't have to stop

Of course it could be done. It's technically feasible to commission the new infrastructure on the existing signalling system but it would be a huge waste of resources. Signalling work isn't cheap and it can't be organised overnight. By the time the design work was complete, it's likely that any remaining problems with the ERTMS would have been resolved, so it would be totally abortive.

 

[87015]

ERTMS for East Suffolk appears to have been binned, conventional signalling now "selected".

 

[moggie]

Predictable - and dare I say sensible. This I assume will give NR's modular signalling initiative a real test bed. So what's the reason? Is ERTMS deemed unsuitable or impractical due to the current trial site issues?

 

[brianthegiant]

I see the points at each ends are still not installed & the new section of twin track is starting to become overgrown with bindweed..I'll probably show my ignorance here, but is it not possible to mechnically install points but manually fix them in one position & commission the electrics later on?

 

[chappers]

I see the points at each ends are still not installed & the new section of twin track is starting to become overgrown with bindweed..I'll probably show my ignorance here, but is it not possible to mechnically install points but manually fix them in one position & commission the electrics later on?

Correct - points can be clipped out of use. There are hundreds of sets on the network that are "scotch and clipped" out of use, as far as I'm aware there isnt anything stopping an uncommissioned set being clipped.

My guess is that if the plain line has been installed but the turnouts haven't, it suggests that either the project has run out of budget for the time being or the possession planned for the work was knocked for whatever reason.